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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Tappits
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
23
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Posted - 2013.11.29 13:59:00 -
[61] - Quote
Gevlin wrote:This is confusing to me
in battle common tactic for a titan to escape is to warp to a safe spot and warp off. With out an interdictor or heavy interdictor, bumping is the only way to stop them.
How am I to know when a pilot has logged off in a system of 200 people. I am allowed to bump? How does this effect the issue about miners being bumped off of asteriod belts. If I have a small gun on my ship and keep shooting the ship I am bumping increasing refreshing the Aggression timer, Then can I bump and not be punished.
As I understand Logoffski is no longer a valid tactic.
please describe a scenario where it is okay to bump and not okay to bump when a ship is about to warp off.
This has nothing to do with Logging off in space. This is about logging something in after doing a safe log off inside a pos shield in a super capital. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
2068
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 14:07:00 -
[62] - Quote
Gevlin wrote:This is confusing to me
in battle common tactic for a titan to escape is to warp to a safe spot and warp off. With out an interdictor or heavy interdictor, bumping is the only way to stop them.
How am I to know when a pilot has logged off in a system of 200 people. I am allowed to bump? How does this effect the issue about miners being bumped off of asteriod belts. If I have a small gun on my ship and keep shooting the ship I am bumping increasing refreshing the Aggression timer, Then can I bump and not be punished.
As I understand Logoffski is no longer a valid tactic.
please describe a scenario where it is okay to bump and not okay to bump when a ship is about to warp off. If you do not understand the details of this exploit, it is impossible to do it by accident. Legitimate gameplay (such as bumping miners, supercaps, etc.) will not trigger this exploit. It requires a deliberate sequence of steps that you wouldn't take unless you specifically plan to exploit this. If you know how to do this, you would know that this is exactly what is being discussed here. Obviously I can't spell out the details for you because discussing exploits is against the EULA. |
W0wbagger
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
48
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Posted - 2013.11.29 14:08:00 -
[63] - Quote
Kristoffon Ellecon wrote:ITT: PL buttmad that it wasn't them that pulled this off and collected an epic amount of tears
Oh man please note kristoff does not speak for us. We were unaware of existing petitions (they are private), We thank ccp for clarifying the situation and we note that dt were amazing calm about it, I'm sure we would have raged a lot more had it been the other way. Believe or not we didn't think it was an exploit, we know now. End of story. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Polarized.
1050
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Posted - 2013.11.29 14:20:00 -
[64] - Quote
apparently exploit = poor game design +1 |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
2307
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Posted - 2013.11.29 14:39:00 -
[65] - Quote
Are you going to build this out of the game? For example, by having a ship enter the game at speed, right at the beginning of warp instead of at zero speed? http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Sibius Aidon
Prototype Concept Divide By Zero Alliance
20
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Posted - 2013.11.29 14:46:00 -
[66] - Quote
I'm curious as to what mistake this Titan pilot did. There is no way to dock a Titan. It's just too large. Logging off is just about the only safe way to keep the Titan safe. He logged in, at which he was immediately attacked but had no way of defending himself. But yet some of y'all think that's just too bad. Maybe CCP should just randomly blow up ships expensive or not with no chance of saving them. Y'all would think twice about saying something is just too bad if you lost yer 300 million Raven 1.3 billion isk unfitted Charon for no reason.
Pilot of the Titan made no mistake. The players who exploited the fact that he couldn't fight back made the mistake, they apparently knew of this. The ones complaining about how 'this is EVE' must be the guilty ones. No, that's not EVE it was only EVE for the time cuz CCP didn't want to do anything about it at the time. |
NickSuccorso
Arcana Imperii Ltd. Surely You're Joking
7
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Posted - 2013.11.29 15:16:00 -
[67] - Quote
Thank you CCP for a quick response on this exploit! I hope that swift and lengthy bans will be handed out to the pilots involved in the titan kill. |
Isadie
suddenly nyx Cap Stable.
1
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Posted - 2013.11.29 15:20:00 -
[68] - Quote
[quote=Ships undergoing emergency warp upon appearing in space have no means to activate modules.[/quote]
lies you can still turn on your prop mod, hardeners.. CCP makes a game doesent know how it works .. :=()
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CCP Masterplan
C C P C C P Alliance
1536
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Posted - 2013.11.29 15:23:00 -
[69] - Quote
Tara Read wrote:Does CCP have any plans in the future to change ewarp mechanics or to fix logging in and out of pos's safely? This seems like the most reasonable and practical course of action.
Vincent Athena wrote:Are you going to build this out of the game? For example, by having a ship enter the game at speed, right at the beginning of warp instead of at zero speed? Yes, we've been discussing ways that we can eliminate this issue without opening up further holes - quite possibly something similar to this suggestion. It is on our radar as something to solve, and we'll be running something by the CSM once we have a solution. "This one time, on patch day..." CCP Masterplan -á| -áTeam Five-0: Rewriting the law |
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Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
296
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Posted - 2013.11.29 15:46:00 -
[70] - Quote
Ships that logged off inside a POS shouldn't have to do an ewarp to get back in since they never ewarped off, just disappeared inside the shields. |
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El Scotch
Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation
18
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Posted - 2013.11.29 15:54:00 -
[71] - Quote
Gevlin wrote:This is confusing to me
in battle common tactic for a titan to escape is to warp to a safe spot and warp off. With out an interdictor or heavy interdictor, bumping is the only way to stop them.
How am I to know when a pilot has logged off in a system of 200 people. I am allowed to bump? How does this effect the issue about miners being bumped off of asteriod belts. If I have a small gun on my ship and keep shooting the ship I am bumping increasing refreshing the Aggression timer, Then can I bump and not be punished.
As I understand Logoffski is no longer a valid tactic.
please describe a scenario where it is okay to bump and not okay to bump when a ship is about to warp off.
Do your shoes have velcro straps? |
xttz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
345
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Posted - 2013.11.29 15:59:00 -
[72] - Quote
CCP Masterplan wrote:Tara Read wrote:Does CCP have any plans in the future to change ewarp mechanics or to fix logging in and out of pos's safely? This seems like the most reasonable and practical course of action.
Vincent Athena wrote:Are you going to build this out of the game? For example, by having a ship enter the game at speed, right at the beginning of warp instead of at zero speed? Yes, we've been discussing ways that we can eliminate this issue without opening up further holes - quite possibly something similar to this suggestion. It is on our radar as something to solve, and we'll be running something by the CSM once we have a solution.
Just make ships unaffected by collisions until they have completed the login warp (providing they do not have any aggression flags). |
Tara Read
The Generic Pirate Corporation Shadow Cartel
651
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Posted - 2013.11.29 16:05:00 -
[73] - Quote
CCP Masterplan wrote:Tara Read wrote:Does CCP have any plans in the future to change ewarp mechanics or to fix logging in and out of pos's safely? This seems like the most reasonable and practical course of action.
Vincent Athena wrote:Are you going to build this out of the game? For example, by having a ship enter the game at speed, right at the beginning of warp instead of at zero speed? Yes, we've been discussing ways that we can eliminate this issue without opening up further holes - quite possibly something similar to this suggestion. It is on our radar as something to solve, and we'll be running something by the CSM once we have a solution.
Excellent this was the answer I was hoping for. Thanks for the quick response. Visit my blog for all the latest in jeers and tears as well as news at http://hoistthecolors.org |
VLAD DRACU
Lockstock. Dead Terrorists
17
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Posted - 2013.11.29 16:10:00 -
[74] - Quote
W0wbagger wrote:Kristoffon Ellecon wrote:ITT: PL buttmad that it wasn't them that pulled this off and collected an epic amount of tears Oh man please note kristoff does not speak for us. We were unaware of existing petitions (they are private), We thank ccp for clarifying the situation and we note that dt were amazing calm about it, I'm sure we would have raged a lot more had it been the other way. Believe or not we didn't think it was an exploit, we know now. End of story.
playing ignorance card, well played. You knew it was an exploit, you guys double checked it and still went for it. |
Dabigredboat
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
42
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Posted - 2013.11.29 16:10:00 -
[75] - Quote
CCP Masterplan wrote:Tara Read wrote:Does CCP have any plans in the future to change ewarp mechanics or to fix logging in and out of pos's safely? This seems like the most reasonable and practical course of action.
Vincent Athena wrote:Are you going to build this out of the game? For example, by having a ship enter the game at speed, right at the beginning of warp instead of at zero speed? Yes, we've been discussing ways that we can eliminate this issue without opening up further holes - quite possibly something similar to this suggestion. It is on our radar as something to solve, and we'll be running something by the CSM once we have a solution.
I tested the **** out of the ewarp login bumping (see my video on Themittani.com about it). The problem is if you change mechanics on ewarp login, you will also be changing mechanics on ewarp logout.
Easy fix for this is to make the ship appear in a pos shields when it logs into a pos shields (rather that's hard to code or not I dont).
The only reason people are able to probe and bump a titan in time is by being on grid at the place it logged out. In this case the pos it logged out at. Since all ships Ewarp back to were they logged out at you can easily find them. If you do not know where they logged out, like a safe spot, you wont be able to warp to them in time to get the bump off. Oh and this bumping does not only affect titans, it also works on all super carriers. |
prudens4
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.11.29 16:46:00 -
[76] - Quote
VLAD DRACU wrote:W0wbagger wrote:Kristoffon Ellecon wrote:ITT: PL buttmad that it wasn't them that pulled this off and collected an epic amount of tears Oh man please note kristoff does not speak for us. We were unaware of existing petitions (they are private), We thank ccp for clarifying the situation and we note that dt were amazing calm about it, I'm sure we would have raged a lot more had it been the other way. Believe or not we didn't think it was an exploit, we know now. End of story. playing ignorance card, well played. You knew it was an exploit, you guys double checked it and still went for it.
To be fair they played the game of chance.
Yes they confirmed and got the answer that it was a 'nono' from at least one source. They decided that as it wasn't currently an exploit they would take the chance and go for it without any real fear of repercussions because once it was done, only then would it be declared as an exploit.
So therefore the winners are: Eve for having another exploit actually identified. SC for getting a Titan kill which will remain on their boards.
They will undoubtedly not get any players banned or suspended even, because they will claim 'ignorance'. Although 'ignorance'' has been claimed before and bans have been handed out for previous exploits.
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Lucas Kell
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
1881
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Posted - 2013.11.29 17:05:00 -
[77] - Quote
Gevlin wrote:This is confusing to me
in battle common tactic for a titan to escape is to warp to a safe spot and warp off. With out an interdictor or heavy interdictor, bumping is the only way to stop them.
How am I to know when a pilot has logged off in a system of 200 people. I am allowed to bump? How does this effect the issue about miners being bumped off of asteriod belts. If I have a small gun on my ship and keep shooting the ship I am bumping increasing refreshing the Aggression timer, Then can I bump and not be punished.
As I understand Logoffski is no longer a valid tactic.
please describe a scenario where it is okay to bump and not okay to bump when a ship is about to warp off. If you scan down a ship that has just logged in before it jumps into it's initial warp and bump it so it can't complete the e-warp it's an exploit. It's unlikely this will happen by chance, so pretty much if you weren't specifically doing this, nothing has changed.
The Indecisive Noob - A new EVE Fan Blog for news and stuff. |
theelusiveyoda
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
34
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Posted - 2013.11.29 18:02:00 -
[78] - Quote
Kristoffon Ellecon wrote:Phoenus wrote:Kristoffon Ellecon wrote:ITT: PL buttmad that it wasn't them that pulled this off and collected an epic amount of tears Yes, I mean. It's totally not like we realised how retardedly broken the mechanic was, and petitioned CCP months ago prior to using it to check if it was allowed? And look how many titan kills you got for it.
Last time i checked its because a former phew member who is now in shadow cartel learned of this while in phew, we petitioned it and posted on the forums about how it could be used several months ago.
tldr read this https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=224862 |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5583
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 18:30:00 -
[79] - Quote
CCP Dolan wrote:Chribba wrote:Question arises, how would a pilot in that situation verify this properly to you guys?
/c We can very clearly see this in our logs. Just let us know if something like this has happened to you and our records will do all the verifying (although fraps or screen shots certainly wouldn't hurt). the logs showing something
good joke, but seriously "I can hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Akturous
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
232
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Posted - 2013.11.29 19:14:00 -
[80] - Quote
Infineon SE wrote:Are those "bumping guys" getting permanently banned for exploit use?
You mean for using a mechanic that CCP Masterplan stated in black and white (or white and grey as it were) was working as intended? I think not.
Much like ecm dying while in ewarp (which is basically a mask over inadequacies and coding for better or worse) is bs and obviously had to be stopped, but the tears and the people suggesting we should be banned certainly improve my day or at least make up for me not being on the mail :( Vote Item Heck One for CSM8 |
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Kat Ayclism
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
180
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Posted - 2013.11.29 19:58:00 -
[81] - Quote
Kristoffon Ellecon wrote:Phoenus wrote:Kristoffon Ellecon wrote:ITT: PL buttmad that it wasn't them that pulled this off and collected an epic amount of tears Yes, I mean. It's totally not like we realised how retardedly broken the mechanic was, and petitioned CCP months ago prior to using it to check if it was allowed? And look how many titan kills you got for it. lmao is that supposed to imply that we didn't get titan kills during that time?
hell, rocketx alone got 2-3 |
RoCkEt X
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
52
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Posted - 2013.11.29 20:01:00 -
[82] - Quote
While it is correct that i conversed with a member of shadow cartel prior to the event, i made the point that in the petitions i know of, this mechanic was never definitively declared an exploit. Instead, we got:
'It sounds like it would be a definite abuse of game mechanics'
'It could be an exploit, and players undertaking such actions could face sanctions from CCP'
While the SHDWC guys would have known it was a 'grey area' or been aware that some may consider it an exploit, my conversations with them since lead me to believe that they themselves did not consider it to be an exploit.
To knowingly use a mechanic that is either widely known, or declared an exploit by CCP is one thing. To do something controversial is nothing new, this is what SHDWC believed they were doing. CCP has had the chance to declare this an exploit a long time ago when i made a thread months ago, and they did not.
The titan's loss is due to CCP's lack of action at the time, SHDWC were merely the people who pulled the trigger first. Eventually, someone else would have done it.
In line with this, i believe 3 things should happen as a result:
1 - the titan pilot gets his ship returned to him 2 - members of SHDWC receive no formal punishment. 3 - SHDWC, and ALL OF EVE is reminded to report bugs/flaws that could possibly considered exploits before blowing up people's titans with it.
When i posted the original thread 7 months ago: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=224862
I knew this was a mechanic that needed fixing. I also made it clear that i had not used the mechanic because i knew it's implications. I am glad the issue has received the attention it deserves, and that we now have a solution, and i consider this a success for all parties. CCP, SHDWC, and the pilot who lost his titan.
-Rock.
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Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
848
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 22:20:00 -
[83] - Quote
thank you, now I can login my useless ship and do nothing with in game other than be inside a pos shield. Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-) |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
6510
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Posted - 2013.11.29 22:47:00 -
[84] - Quote
W0wbagger wrote:Kristoffon Ellecon wrote:ITT: PL buttmad that it wasn't them that pulled this off and collected an epic amount of tears Oh man please note kristoff does not speak for us. We were unaware of existing petitions (they are private), We thank ccp for clarifying the situation and we note that dt were amazing calm about it, I'm sure we would have raged a lot more had it been the other way. Believe or not we didn't think it was an exploit, we know now. End of story. Oh please. Anyone with half a brain can tell this kind of trick isn't kosher. EVE Online - An Unstable Game |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
6510
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Posted - 2013.11.29 22:51:00 -
[85] - Quote
I'm not saying you should be punished, but you're dumb if you thought you could keep doing this with impunity. EVE Online - An Unstable Game |
icutwood
Unlawful Unit Initiative Mercenaries
2
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Posted - 2013.11.29 23:13:00 -
[86] - Quote
I seriously can't believe you're claiming you thought this was intended functionality; if that were true then focus points would work, take a hint.
I hate cheaters in games as is, but then you top it off with the hubris of coming to forums and claiming total ignorance, it will make my day if you get lengthy bans. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
264
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 23:47:00 -
[87] - Quote
Khador Vess wrote:BigSako wrote: you also clearly dont understand how the mechanics work.
You can NOT probe the emergency warp OUT spot of somebody. Well you can, but it won't help you because the ship will just disappear (unless it logged out with aggression).
The spot to spawn in, is a completely different spot. The spot is being picked randomly at exactly 1 Million Kilometer from the log out spot (so in most cases for supercapitals, a POS). It will with certainty not be the same spot you disappeared after your emergency warp out.
Now in this case, titans and supers take (depending on fit and pilot skills) between 11 seconds and 40 seconds to be fully aligned to enter warp, which is more then enough time to probe and warp a bumping ship to it.
Battleships and below will literally align in 15 seconds, which is NOT enough time to be probed down and warped onto. So your statement "Someone lost a shiny ship and now suddenly its an exploit" is absolutely wrong, because noone has ever lost a NON shiny ship to this game mechanic (and I consider carriers, freighters and above as shinys).
To re-iterate what has been said: When you log in (and you didnt have aggression before), you can NOT be warp scrambled NOT be bubbled (you can, but you will just warp out of bubbles) NOT cancel your warp NOT jump to a cyno NOT cloak NOT defend yourself properly
I have tried this out like 2 years ago already, when I was fishing a titan, and I probed it down in time and fleet warped a dictor to it. The titan just warped out of the bubble - and done. As a matter of fact, this "mechanic" has been known long enough and many plans have been made to kill titans/supercarriers in exactly this way, and most of the time people did rise their opinion on how this is an exploit. Another matter of fact: There has already been a case like this, when a supercarrier/titan was tackled and the aggressors were claiming an exploit when the super/titan warped out of the bubble. This was even recorded and put on youtube, though I can't find that. There was a huge post and uproar about an exploit at that time.
I didn't fully understand the very first PART of this, thanks for clearing that up, i thought the two spots were the same, they are not however it still makes no difference though. your ship is in space outside the pos, thats the mechanic of the e warp. Your ship gets killed because someone lays a trap, thats the long and short of it, shiny or not, someone planned and executed a trap well...
Jesus ******* christ. This is dead simple. E-warp mechanic unavoidably forbids the pilot from interacting with the game world in any way until it's terminated. Since the pilot is unavoidably barred from interacting with the world, the world must be similarly barred from interacting with the pilot.
You would have to have spent a considerable amount of time eating paste to fail to see that this is one of the least ambiguous exploits ever. |
Firefox4312 Yatolila
SILK R0AD
29
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Posted - 2013.11.30 00:54:00 -
[88] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:You just made a ship almost impossible to kill even more harder. Cmn CCP wth are you thinking?
Decisions are what makes EVE a so beautiful game. You want your caps tanky with slaves, go ahead but they are less agile and slower. You want your capital ships not probable? Than go with nano, stabilizers and nomad set.
CCP always and i repeat always caters to the big entities.
Uhm? Abusing a mechanic to kill a super is catering to the "big entities." I didn't realize BALEX was this bad and whined when CCP fixes things for the better.
I know BALEX has supers, why don't we just go bump all of them in ewarp so they can't fight back and die in a fire, or is that not an abuse of game mechanics?
These mechanics are supposed to make things like supers and titans safer, yet there were an actual deathtrap to them if people were competent enough to probe them down and pull off the bumps.
Oh, and the only super that nomads works for is the rag. Nothing else can align and warp fast enough, and if you are in a Bus, nyx, aeon, etc.. You want slaves, not nomads. |
Firefox4312 Yatolila
SILK R0AD
29
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Posted - 2013.11.30 00:57:00 -
[89] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Khador Vess wrote:BigSako wrote: you also clearly dont understand how the mechanics work.
You can NOT probe the emergency warp OUT spot of somebody. Well you can, but it won't help you because the ship will just disappear (unless it logged out with aggression).
The spot to spawn in, is a completely different spot. The spot is being picked randomly at exactly 1 Million Kilometer from the log out spot (so in most cases for supercapitals, a POS). It will with certainty not be the same spot you disappeared after your emergency warp out.
Now in this case, titans and supers take (depending on fit and pilot skills) between 11 seconds and 40 seconds to be fully aligned to enter warp, which is more then enough time to probe and warp a bumping ship to it.
Battleships and below will literally align in 15 seconds, which is NOT enough time to be probed down and warped onto. So your statement "Someone lost a shiny ship and now suddenly its an exploit" is absolutely wrong, because noone has ever lost a NON shiny ship to this game mechanic (and I consider carriers, freighters and above as shinys).
To re-iterate what has been said: When you log in (and you didnt have aggression before), you can NOT be warp scrambled NOT be bubbled (you can, but you will just warp out of bubbles) NOT cancel your warp NOT jump to a cyno NOT cloak NOT defend yourself properly
I have tried this out like 2 years ago already, when I was fishing a titan, and I probed it down in time and fleet warped a dictor to it. The titan just warped out of the bubble - and done. As a matter of fact, this "mechanic" has been known long enough and many plans have been made to kill titans/supercarriers in exactly this way, and most of the time people did rise their opinion on how this is an exploit. Another matter of fact: There has already been a case like this, when a supercarrier/titan was tackled and the aggressors were claiming an exploit when the super/titan warped out of the bubble. This was even recorded and put on youtube, though I can't find that. There was a huge post and uproar about an exploit at that time.
I didn't fully understand the very first PART of this, thanks for clearing that up, i thought the two spots were the same, they are not however it still makes no difference though. your ship is in space outside the pos, thats the mechanic of the e warp. Your ship gets killed because someone lays a trap, thats the long and short of it, shiny or not, someone planned and executed a trap well... Jesus ******* christ. This is dead simple. E-warp mechanic unavoidably forbids the pilot from interacting with the game world in any way until it's terminated. Since the pilot is unavoidably barred from interacting with the world, the world must be similarly barred from interacting with the pilot. You would have to have spent a considerable amount of time eating paste to fail to see that this is one of the least ambiguous exploits ever.
You have to remember the IQ of some people on the internet is well below the average ape. Things like "game mechanics" escape their simple minds, and no matter how much you try to explain to them, they won't fully understand it nor will they know what to do about it. |
TheOldBrutos
Yarrbear Inc. Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
10
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Posted - 2013.11.30 02:42:00 -
[90] - Quote
icutwood wrote:I seriously can't believe you're claiming you thought this was intended functionality; if that were true then focus points would work, take a hint.
I hate cheaters in games as is, but then you top it off by having the hubris to come onto forums and claim total ignorance, it will make my day if you get lengthy bans.
ban Zloco as well |
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