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Exo Crue
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.12.04 00:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm a bit confused about them since I have no experience with them. In a one vs one pvp fight what tech 1 ship would it take to beat one? A battleship? |
Jill Chastot
Oath of the Forsaken Ragnarok.
10
|
Posted - 2013.12.04 01:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
not very, tengus can be alphad by tornados (emphasis on the can)
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Cannibal Kane
Viziam Amarr Empire
2816
|
Posted - 2013.12.04 02:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
And they can be some of the toughest nuts in the game.
Jill is being a moron.
You can build a 600K EHP Protues for example. The HAM Legion can be a 350k EHP 650 DPS Ship.
As with everything ships can be as tough or as fragile as you make them. "I saw him fight by the monument in Jita. -áHe flowed in his Machariel like a Shinto spirit, 800MM shells sprouting in his passing. -áHis hair flowed in the corona of his target's warp core breach. -áIt was truly majestic. -áAnd while everyone stared in awe I stole the loot and ran off.-áBecause I am like that." --áNEONOVUS |
Jill Chastot
Oath of the Forsaken Ragnarok.
11
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Posted - 2013.12.04 02:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'd rather overstate how fragile everything in this game can be for him lest he fit out his faction/DS T3 and lose it in the blink of an eye.
regardless your statement is 100% correct |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
3725
|
Posted - 2013.12.04 02:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
OP... it all depends on how the ship is fit.
Some can be made into 200,000+ EHP (effective hit point) "bricks."
Others can be made into 100,000+ EHP "brawlers" that dish 400 to 600 DPS (damage per second).
There are still others can can be made into perma-tanking powerhouses that can absorb tons-o'-damage over time but can be taken out by a high enough single volley.
And they are others that can be made into speedy "gingerbread men" that pepper you with damage from afar.
However, as with everything else in EVE, each setup has a weaknesses. It's just that with T3s it is not always as apparent as with other ships. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Exo Crue
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2013.12.04 03:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:OP... it all depends on how the ship is fit.
Some can be made into 200,000+ EHP (effective hit point) "bricks."
Others can be made into 100,000+ EHP "brawlers" that dish 400 to 600 DPS (damage per second).
There are still others can can be made into perma-tanking powerhouses that can absorb tons-o'-damage over time but can be taken out by a high enough single volley.
And they are others that can be made into speedy "gingerbread men" that pepper you with damage from afar.
However, as with everything else in EVE, each setup has a weaknesses. It's just that with T3s it is not always as apparent as with other ships.
I see. That's a lot lot of hit points. Am I right to conclude then that if fitted for PVP, Strategic Cruisers will usually beat virtually all Tech 1 ships?
Let me put it another way. Would it be suicidal for a Tech 1 battleship to engage a PVP Strategic Cruiser? |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
3725
|
Posted - 2013.12.04 03:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
Not if fit properly.
Here are some examples:
- A perma-repping T3 relies on its capacitor power to absorb and repair incoming damage. If you brought a ship that uses lots of energy neutralizers then its tank will fail.
- That same "perma-repping" setup also has a weakness in not having very high EHP (generally around 30 to 50,000). If you can get weapons that deal high enough volley damage (hint: artillery cannons) then you can theoretically blow right through the ship and kill it before the repair systems kick in.
- A speedy "gingerbread man" T3 (see: a T3 that uses a battleship-class afterburner) uses a lot of its resources (powergrid and CPU) to fit that one mod and weapons. Generally they won't be able to fit a stiff tank. If you can catch and pin it down with lots of webs, you can probably brawl it down.
- A "brick" style T3 will generally be slow and may not have much in the way of offensive power... meaning that if you engage from range you can theoretically chew it up over time (a lot of time).
Another thing to consider is PvE fits versus PvP fits.
Generally speaking... - a PvE ship of any type can be handily taken down by most PvP-fit ships.
- PvP ships are generally good at only a few select tactics... the trick is to force it into a tactic that it might be weak in or you are stronger in.
Unfortunately for many newcomers to EVE there is no straight answer regarding "what can beat what." Ship fittings, specialties, and weapon strengths/weaknesses all fall into a murky "grey area" that simply requires experience to navigate. Hell... it is entirely possible for a frigate to kill a battlecruiser or battleship if used just right. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Exo Crue
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.12.04 03:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Not if fit properly.
Here are some examples:
- A perma-repping T3 relies on its capacitor power to absorb and repair incoming damage. If you brought a ship that uses lots of energy neutralizers then its tank will fail.
- That same "perma-repping" setup also has a weakness in not having very high EHP (generally around 30 to 50,000). If you can get weapons that deal high enough volley damage (hint: artillery cannons) then you can theoretically blow right through the ship and kill it before the repair systems kick in.
- A speedy "gingerbread man" T3 (see: a T3 that uses a battleship-class afterburner) uses a lot of its resources (powergrid and CPU) to fit that one mod and weapons. Generally they won't be able to fit a stiff tank. If you can catch and pin it down with lots of webs, you can probably brawl it down.
- A "brick" style T3 will generally be slow and may not have much in the way of offensive power... meaning that if you engage from range you can theoretically chew it up over time (a lot of time).
Another thing to consider is PvE fits versus PvP fits.
Generally speaking... - a PvE ship of any type can be handily taken down by most PvP-fit ships.
- PvP ships are generally good at only a few select tactics... the trick is to force it into a tactic that it might be weak in or you are stronger in.
Unfortunately for many newcomers to EVE there is no straight answer regarding "what can beat what." Ship fittings, specialties, and weapon strengths/weaknesses all fall into a murky "grey area" that simply requires experience to navigate. Hell... it is entirely possible for a frigate to kill a battlecruiser or battleship if used just right.
Yes thxs that helps. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
1279
|
Posted - 2013.12.04 04:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
I have defeated a Loki 1v1 in a Vexor, although I took a ransom rather than popping them. My Vexor was a tech 2 fit designed for short range damage alongside medium mobility.
The key to engaging a T3 is that you do not know what type of ship you are up against in advance. If you engage a Hyperion, you know in advance that it is one of two things - a short range extreme DPS blaster platform with a substantial local tank, or a long range sniper platform.
On the flip side, if you engage a Proteus, it could do a very wide variety of things. You won't know until it is usually too late to disengage.
If you want to see a strategic cruiser in action, ask Cannibal Kane (who posted above) to show you some of his killmails. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. An enemy is just a friend that you stab in the front. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
2129
|
Posted - 2013.12.04 05:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
Exo Crue wrote:Am I right to conclude then that if fitted for PVP, Strategic Cruisers will usually beat virtually all Tech 1 ships? You're asking the wrong question. Ask instead, "Would a TIII cruiser be able to beat a collection of TI ships worth as much as the fitted TIII?" In most cases, assuming mildly competent pilots, the answer is no.
EVE is a multiplayer game, not a dueling simulator. ISK efficiency is a bigger factor than straight up one to one comparisons, at least until you reach the point when you can't solve your problems by adding more people anymore. You could even beat that TIII in TI frigates worth a negligible fraction of its cost piloted by month old newbies if you throw enough of them at it. |
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Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
1288
|
Posted - 2013.12.04 06:04:00 -
[11] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Exo Crue wrote:Am I right to conclude then that if fitted for PVP, Strategic Cruisers will usually beat virtually all Tech 1 ships? You're asking the wrong question. Ask instead, "Would a TIII cruiser be able to beat a collection of TI ships worth as much as the fitted TIII?" In most cases, assuming mildly competent pilots, the answer is no. EVE is a multiplayer game, not a dueling simulator. ISK efficiency is a bigger factor than straight up one to one comparisons, at least until you reach the point when you can't solve your problems by adding more people anymore. You could even beat that TIII in TI frigates worth a negligible fraction of its cost piloted by month old newbies if you throw enough of them at it.
You need to factor in a value for the T1 frigate pilots' time. That is why many alliances that have drone assist doctrines would rather field Ishtars to Vexors, despite the former costing 15-20 times as much for only 167% of the damage output. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. An enemy is just a friend that you stab in the front. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
2129
|
Posted - 2013.12.04 06:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:You need to factor in a value for the T1 frigate pilots' time. That is why many alliances that have drone assist doctrines would rather field Ishtars to Vexors, despite the former costing 15-20 times as much for only 167% of the damage output. Yup, as I said, there are practical upper limits to scaleability. Getting 20 people to kill a single TIII is not a big deal for a corporation. Multiplying a 500 man force 10 times is unfeasible for several different reasons. |
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
38
|
Posted - 2013.12.04 06:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
There's a big difference between a T3 flown and fitted by a competent pilot, backed by gang links and possibly logi, further more backed by intel and scouts to make sure nothing bad is about to happen and.... some single guy who's not too good at EVE and pvp and flying one truly solo.
The first one is awesome and amazing in the right situation, the second will be a rather painful loss really really quickly. |
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
2575
|
Posted - 2013.12.04 07:11:00 -
[14] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Not if fit properly.
Here are some examples:
- A perma-repping T3 relies on its capacitor power to absorb and repair incoming damage. If you brought a ship that uses lots of energy neutralizers then its tank will fail.
- That same "perma-repping" setup also has a weakness in not having very high EHP (generally around 30 to 50,000). If you can get weapons that deal high enough volley damage (hint: artillery cannons) then you can theoretically blow right through the ship and kill it before the repair systems kick in.
- A speedy "gingerbread man" T3 (see: a T3 that uses a battleship-class afterburner) uses a lot of its resources (powergrid and CPU) to fit that one mod and weapons. Generally they won't be able to fit a stiff tank. If you can catch and pin it down with lots of webs, you can probably brawl it down.
- A "brick" style T3 will generally be slow and may not have much in the way of offensive power... meaning that if you engage from range you can theoretically chew it up over time (a lot of time).
Another thing to consider is PvE fits versus PvP fits.
Generally speaking... - a PvE ship of any type can be handily taken down by most PvP-fit ships.
- PvP ships are generally good at only a few select tactics... the trick is to force it into a tactic that it might be weak in or you are stronger in.
Unfortunately for many newcomers to EVE there is no straight answer regarding "what can beat what." Ship fittings, specialties, and weapon strengths/weaknesses all fall into a murky "grey area" that simply requires experience to navigate. Hell... it is entirely possible for a frigate to kill a battlecruiser or battleship if used just right.
You have forgotten to mention skills of the pilot.
As in the knowledge he has about the game, his ship and the mechanics, not the in game skillpoints you collect over time.
Pilot skill is also a major factor on how good/bad your ship is. Any ship flown by someone who knows what he/she is doing is 100x better then someone who is clueless about anything. Want to have some chat in game? Need help to get into the game as a new player? Just join my channel: Crazy Dutch Guy |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
3728
|
Posted - 2013.12.04 17:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
Fiiiiiiiiine.... rather than assume that is what I was saying I'll put a disclaimer that reads, "assuming both pilots have more or less equal skills and skillpoints..." Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
122
|
Posted - 2013.12.04 22:11:00 -
[16] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Fiiiiiiiiine.... rather than assume that is what I was saying I'll put a disclaimer that reads, "assuming both pilots have more or less equal skills and skillpoints..." Pvp is pretty much always unequal. The person(s) who attacks you does so after calculating the chance and finding the odds greatly in favor. Because you disdained all my counsel, and my reproof you ignoredGÇö I, in my turn, will laugh at your doom; will mock when terror overtakes you; -- Ultimate Griefer's Handbook |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
1290
|
Posted - 2013.12.04 23:08:00 -
[17] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Sabriz Adoudel wrote:You need to factor in a value for the T1 frigate pilots' time. That is why many alliances that have drone assist doctrines would rather field Ishtars to Vexors, despite the former costing 15-20 times as much for only 167% of the damage output. Yup, as I said, there are practical upper limits to scaleability. Getting 20 people to kill a single TIII is not a big deal for a corporation. Multiplying a 500 man force 10 times is unfeasible for several different reasons.
Unless the corporation is made up of newbies primarily, it would be cheaper for them to assign three people in tech 1 cruisers and one Interceptor to hunting the T3, and have the other 16 continue generating ISK through other means. For most corporations, member playtime is a more valuable resource than ISK.
Look at sovereign nullsec for examples of this. Big entities don't insert spies just for the monetary effect of stealing a supercapital or two because the ISK is of marginal importance. The reason they run operations like that is to demoralize their opponents into not logging in as much. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. An enemy is just a friend that you stab in the front. |
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
2576
|
Posted - 2013.12.04 23:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Abdiel Kavash wrote:Sabriz Adoudel wrote:You need to factor in a value for the T1 frigate pilots' time. That is why many alliances that have drone assist doctrines would rather field Ishtars to Vexors, despite the former costing 15-20 times as much for only 167% of the damage output. Yup, as I said, there are practical upper limits to scaleability. Getting 20 people to kill a single TIII is not a big deal for a corporation. Multiplying a 500 man force 10 times is unfeasible for several different reasons. Unless the corporation is made up of newbies primarily, it would be cheaper for them to assign three people in tech 1 cruisers and one Interceptor to hunting the T3, and have the other 16 continue generating ISK through other means. For most corporations, member playtime is a more valuable resource than ISK. Look at sovereign nullsec for examples of this. Big entities don't insert spies just for the monetary effect of stealing a supercapital or two because the ISK is of marginal importance. The reason they run operations like that is to demoralize their opponents into not logging in as much.
Most wars arent won on the battlefield but through Economical or Political warfare.
If you can deny your enemy a source of income (for instance in nullsec by cloaky camping them / their renters. And or drive away members) you can already win the war before the fighting even begins. Want to have some chat in game? Need help to get into the game as a new player? Just join my channel: Crazy Dutch Guy |
Degnar Oskold
Justified Chaos
49
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 22:02:00 -
[19] - Quote
Looking through the zkill board, I've found, for example 4 tengus killed by solo T1 ships
The first was killed by a Vexor - I'd love to hear about how that happened! The second was killed by a Tempest The third was killed by a Tornado The last was killed by a Stabber Fleet Issue
So it can be done, in theory. The flip side is that aside form these 4 kills, the recent pages of killboard is full of T1 ships that were murdered by solo Tengus. |
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting Home Front Coalition
790
|
Posted - 2013.12.08 11:12:00 -
[20] - Quote
Knowledge of the game environment help a lot determinig a T3's intention, and thus it's potential fitting. That Proteus that's has been prowling around the gates without cloaking? Probably a harder target then the Tengu you spotted cloaking, and that's now running a DED site. People fit for PVP and PVE specificly. Look for proof for the former or the latter when dealing with T3's. |
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