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Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1756
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Posted - 2013.12.05 10:35:00 -
[31] - Quote
Being in hisec only means that unsanctioned aggression comes at a greater cost than elsewhere. Minimizing player control has never been a guideline for hisec, nor should it be.
Even if they introduced standings requirements for setting up POCOs, ours are already set up and any new ones would simply be anchored under a corp with the appropriate standings. This wouldn't be a challenge at all. npc alts have no opinions worth consideration |
Malak Alraheem
A Better Corp Name
12
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Posted - 2013.12.05 13:44:00 -
[32] - Quote
Actually there is a way to anchor a POS without the player having to do a standings grind. You just hire someone that already has the standings to build/run your corp for a week and then you have a week to put up all the towers you want.
I am still trying to see where this is breaking the game as the OP is claiming. Both systems are based on established game mechanics, similar yet different. The game mechanic for the high sec POCO is the taxation by the NPCs and the fact that the resources on the planets are fairly poor. The game mechanic for the high-sec POS is the need for standings (trivial, it really is) and the need for charters (also trivial). Otherwise there is no difference in play between high-sec and the other regions of space.
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Davon Mandra'thin
Rotten Legion Ops
238
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Posted - 2013.12.05 13:53:00 -
[33] - Quote
For all the reasons you have stated, POCOs are better. The OP reads like an argument for why POCOs are awesome and then you come to the conclusion that they should be more like their **** counterparts. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
17629
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Posted - 2013.12.05 14:16:00 -
[34] - Quote
Patri Andari wrote:Completely different? Overstate much? Not really, no. POCOs have more in common with a Dominix than they have with POSes (and the commonalities there are very small).
So them not following the same rules as POSes makes at least as much sense as Dominixes not following those rules either. As others have pointed out, the best solution would be to remove most of the restrictions on POSes GÇö pointlessly applying those restrictions on something that's meant to highly unrestricted would be a move in the wrong direction and doesn't make any sense to begin with.
So again, two completely different things working completely differently does not break the game. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4944
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Posted - 2013.12.05 15:18:00 -
[35] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Patri Andari wrote:Completely different? Overstate much? Not really, no. POCOs have more in common with a Dominix than they have with POSes (and the commonalities there are very small). So them not following the same rules as POSes makes at least as much sense as Dominixes not following those rules either. As others have pointed out, the best solution would be to remove most of the restrictions on POSes GÇö pointlessly applying those restrictions on something that's meant to highly unrestricted would be a move in the wrong direction and doesn't make any sense to begin with. So again, two completely different things working completely differently does not break the game. Tippia, I think if you look between the lines the OP really doesn't care about POCO's, and doesn't do PI related activities at all.
No, the point of this thread is simply to use how POCO mechanics work to further his agenda to make High Sec POS's cheaper to run and easier to share. He rather WANTS people to argue that POCO's should run the way they do, and list all the good reasons why they should run that way, so that the next logical step in the process then becomes "why can't high sec POS's run that way as well".
Such a clever lad. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
17629
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Posted - 2013.12.05 15:23:00 -
[36] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Tippia, I think if you look between the lines the OP really doesn't care about POCO's, and doesn't do PI related activities at all. As always, I point to Poe's law.
Sure, POSes could certainly have their highsec idiocy level reduced and the standings grind could certainly do with a good shotgunning behind the shed, but there are enough people who genuinely believe the nonsense the OP puts forth so it's worth responding to. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4945
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Posted - 2013.12.05 15:27:00 -
[37] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Tippia, I think if you look between the lines the OP really doesn't care about POCO's, and doesn't do PI related activities at all. As always, I point to Poe's law. Sure, POSes could certainly have their highsec idiocy level reduced and the standings grind could certainly do with a good shotgunning behind the shed, but there are enough people who genuinely believe the nonsense the OP puts forth so it's worth responding to. Yeah, I'm not opposed to POS's mechanics in High Sec being improved... well POS mechanics anywhere for that matter.
I'm just appreciating the fact that he has people that think they are arguing against him helping to make his actual point for him.
Still, I agree with you that it's best for everyone concerned to make sure the facts are clear. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
118
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Posted - 2013.12.06 01:17:00 -
[38] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Tippia, I think if you look between the lines the OP really doesn't care about POCO's, and doesn't do PI related activities at all. As always, I point to Poe's law. Sure, POSes could certainly have their highsec idiocy level reduced and the standings grind could certainly do with a good shotgunning behind the shed, but there are enough people who genuinely believe the nonsense the OP puts forth so it's worth responding to.
It is one thing to say "I do not agree" , but what do you attribute my opinion as "nonsense"?
Seems a bridge too far even for you.
Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown |
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
118
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 01:27:00 -
[39] - Quote
Malak Alraheem wrote:Actually there is a way to anchor a POS without the player having to do a standings grind. You just hire someone that already has the standings to build/run your corp for a week and then you have a week to put up all the towers you want.
I am still trying to see where this is breaking the game as the OP is claiming. Both systems are based on established game mechanics, similar yet different. The game mechanic for the high sec POCO is the taxation by the NPCs and the fact that the resources on the planets are fairly poor. The game mechanic for the high-sec POS is the need for standings (trivial, it really is) and the need for charters (also trivial). Otherwise there is no difference in play between high-sec and the other regions of space.
I like this train of thought because it has a rationale. Let's say I agree that the requirements are trivial. should not they be consistent?
Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown |
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
118
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 01:30:00 -
[40] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Being in hisec only means that unsanctioned aggression comes at a greater cost than elsewhere. Minimizing player control has never been a guideline for hisec, nor should it be.
Even if they introduced standings requirements for setting up POCOs, ours are already set up and any new ones would simply be anchored under a corp with the appropriate standings. This wouldn't be a challenge at all.
I can therefore list you as in agreement to my view?
Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown |
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Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
118
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Posted - 2013.12.06 01:35:00 -
[41] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Patri Andari wrote:Completely different? Overstate much? Not really, no. POCOs have more in common with a Dominix than they have with POSes (and the commonalities there are very small). So them not following the same rules as POSes makes at least as much sense as Dominixes not following those rules either. As others have pointed out, the best solution would be to remove most of the restrictions on POSes GÇö pointlessly applying those restrictions on something that's meant to highly unrestricted would be a move in the wrong direction and doesn't make any sense to begin with. So again, two completely different things working completely differently does not break the game.
I have to say that you have done better work. As one of the game's better trolls, at least give a full quote before you digress.
POS and POCOS are structures erected in space. How is either like a space potato?
Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown |
Paranoid Loyd
University of Caille Gallente Federation
25
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Posted - 2013.12.06 01:45:00 -
[42] - Quote
Patri Andari wrote: How is either like a space potato?
Her point is you are trying to compare an apple to an orange, HTH.
Someone who uses logic and reason to rip apart your statements does not make them a troll. |
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy Caldari State
151
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 01:55:00 -
[43] - Quote
You seem to have the bar set pretty low as to when a game is "broken". |
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
118
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Posted - 2013.12.06 01:58:00 -
[44] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Patri Andari wrote: How is either like a space potato?
Her point is you are trying to compare an apple to an orange, HTH. Someone who uses logic and reason to rip apart your statements does not make them a troll.
You seem well intended but misinformed.
He misquoted me and then used "reason and logic" to rip a fallacy.
Please do not feed the troll.
Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown |
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
118
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 02:11:00 -
[45] - Quote
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:You seem to have the bar set pretty low as to when a game is "broken".
Smohq,
I think high security space has requirements that pre date many aspects of this game. I also think the "standings grind" fit in that scope.
Jump clones, agent access, taxes, and a few other things are a part of that system. When something comes along to change that I think it breaks many aspects of the game. Is that a low bar?
Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown |
Captain Tardbar
Sons of Sam
761
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 02:53:00 -
[46] - Quote
Gah. Haven't I repeated myself enough times so that you know that PI in high-sec isn't worth the clicks it takes.
Sure its free isk, but miners make 1000% more mining veldspar a month. Its not worth the time hauling the goods to Jita.
What? 100 million a month per account. That's chump change. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. Captain Tardbar: The official grumpy cat of General Discussion. |
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
119
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 03:34:00 -
[47] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:Gah. Haven't I repeated myself enough times so that you know that PI in high-sec isn't worth the clicks it takes.
Sure its free isk, but miners make 1000% more mining veldspar a month. Its not worth the time hauling the goods to Jita.
What? 100 million a month per account. That's chump change.
I am not tolally sure I follow your comments Captain or that you follow this thread, but thanks
Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown |
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy Caldari State
151
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 03:54:00 -
[48] - Quote
Patri Andari wrote:Smohq Anmirorz wrote:You seem to have the bar set pretty low as to when a game is "broken". Smohq, I think high security space has requirements that pre date many aspects of this game. I also think the "standings grind" fit in that scope. Jump clones, agent access, taxes, and a few other things are a part of that system. When something comes along to change that I think it breaks many aspects of the game. Is that a low bar?
Breaking aspects of the game isn't quite the same as breaking the game itself. This one feature of the game does not have such far-reaching effects as your title implies. |
Gilat Sumat
Perkone Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2013.12.06 06:56:00 -
[49] - Quote
Why aren't the Corps who own the POCO's charged a small fee for each? It's a really simple Isk-sink and it encourages a lot more interaction with the users and owners... I paid some local friendlyGÇÖs to shoot down three for my two-man alt corp so I could charge zero to blues in our pocket. Is that the direction CCP wanted us to take? |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4419
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 07:11:00 -
[50] - Quote
Gilat Sumat wrote:Why aren't the Corps who own the POCO's charged a small fee for each?
Because you haven't sent them an invoice.
Quote:It's a really simple Isk-sink and it encourages a lot more interaction with the users and owners... I paid some local friendlyGÇÖs to shoot down three for my two-man alt corp so I could charge zero to blues in our pocket. Is that the direction CCP wanted us to take?
CCP doesn't "want" anything. They provide tools, and it's up to you to decide how to use them. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
17642
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Posted - 2013.12.06 08:16:00 -
[51] - Quote
Patri Andari wrote:You seem well intended but misinformed.
He misquoted me and then used "reason and logic" to rip a fallacy. No, he's entirely accurate. That's exactly what you wrote, so it's not a misquote, and the reason and logic is there to demonstrate that your comparison is deeply flawed. If you set up meaningless and arbitrary characteristics and then say that two things are the same because they match each other on one or two of those points, then you can do the same for anything in the game.
With that kind of reasoning, it's trivial to set up a comparison where POCOs are more like Domis than like POSes. After all, they're both semi-AFK space entities used to directly generate ISK (rather than a building tool to produce something that might in turn generate ISK); they're both meant to be fairly disposable: cheap, easy to come by, easy to lose; and neither of them are there to extend the functionality of stations.
If you want to make claims based on belonging to the class of entities that are anchored in space, then you should look at the range of entities that are anchored in space including things like Outposts, GSCs, bubbles, and now MTUs, depots, MCIs, MSUsGǪ none of which require taxes or standings or fuel. So POCOs are entirely normal; POSes are not a natural point of comparison since they break the norms.
Quote:Please do not feed the troll. So you don't want people to respond to your OP?
Quote:I think high security space has requirements that pre date many aspects of this game. I also think the "standings grind" fit in that scope.
Jump clones, agent access, taxes, and a few other things are a part of that system. When something comes along to change that I think it breaks many aspects of the game. Is that a low bar? GǪbut nothing has changed any of that. It's all still there. Nothing is broken.
The point you keep missing is that these things aren't there just to be there GÇö they're there to serve a purpose. The standings grind is used to deny access to certain products and services, but since POCOs are supposed to be universally available in large numbers to everyone who wants a piece of the pie, restricting access to them would be at cross-purposes. Taxes are there to reduce the influx of ISK, but POCOs don't spawn any and are rather intended to make more ISK move around, so having to pay taxes for one would once again defeat that purpose. Fuel requirements (rare as they are) are used to create a labour cost and a barrier to expansion GÇö own too many installations and you can't maintain them all GÇö but the purpose of POCOs is to have them spread far and wide across the entire cluster so having such a requirement would GǪ [drum rolll] GǪ defeat their purpose.
At no point does any of these designs for POCOs break anything. Quite the opposite: applying those mechanics to POCOs would break things, since they would no longer function as intended. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
484
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 09:31:00 -
[52] - Quote
Discussion is kind-of moot anyway, as CCP intend or are in the process of overhauling POS's completely. I think... |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5288
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 16:33:00 -
[53] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:Discussion is kind-of moot anyway, as CCP intend or are in the process of overhauling POS's completely. I think... But they only affect a small portion of players ... There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
brinelan
The Flying Dead Insidious Empire
108
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 17:23:00 -
[54] - Quote
Patri Andari wrote:
POCO as they are stand to be the most passive income in the game.
Since when does defending a structure that generates money and is at risk of being destroyed constitute passive income? |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
507
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 18:04:00 -
[55] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:Discussion is kind-of moot anyway, as CCP intend or are in the process of overhauling POS's completely. I think... HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Oh wait you're serious. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4420
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 18:16:00 -
[56] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:Discussion is kind-of moot anyway, as CCP intend or are in the process of overhauling POS's completely. I think...
So, there's this pile of scrap Iron I want to sell you. It's right in downtown Paris. If you're willing to cart it away, I can sell it to you for 10 cents/pound, cash up front. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
Eram Fidard
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
482
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 19:49:00 -
[57] - Quote
Hey guys I have zero knowledge of the mechanic in question but I believe its broken because...things...
*logic enters*
Hey guys I still have zero knowledge but....but....
Face it, tippia just handed you your arse on a plate. Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages. |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
541
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Posted - 2013.12.06 19:52:00 -
[58] - Quote
OP has good points, but I think the solution is just to abolish corp standings requirements for hisec towers. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
120
|
Posted - 2013.12.07 01:02:00 -
[59] - Quote
Eram Fidard wrote:Hey guys I have zero knowledge of the mechanic in question but I believe its broken because...things...
*logic enters*
Hey guys I still have zero knowledge but....but....
Face it, tippia just handed you your arse on a plate.
Renfield? Is that you?
Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1758
|
Posted - 2013.12.07 06:29:00 -
[60] - Quote
Patri Andari wrote:I can therefore list you as in agreement to my view?
No, you can list me as saying this idea is beyond stupid. npc alts have no opinions worth consideration |
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