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Jayne Fillon
Sanctuary of Shadows Axiomatic Dominion
148
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Posted - 2013.12.07 03:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
I wrote a thing, and I'm lazy so I'm just going to paste the link:
http://themittani.com/features/how-fix-sentry-drones
All the justifications can be found within the article, but there are two conclusions that I've come to that I'd like to discuss and push for:
Quote:The drone damage amplifiers need to be reworked to include a bonus to rate of fire in exchange for a smaller increase in base damage or alpha strike. Having all of the bonus focused on damage greatly increases alpha strike without providing any drawbacks such as lower continuous DPS.
Decrease the omnidirectional tracking link bonuses substantially, making them closer to the bonuses applied by the tracking enhancer. Having a 25% tracking bonus applied exclusively to the weapon system already with the highest base tracking is a compounding issue. The base tracking of sentry drones may also need to be reduced.
Summarized: Drone damage amplifiers would be better balanced having a reduced damage modifier in favour of a small RoF bonus to bring the alpha strike in line with other cruisers. Omnidirectionals need to have both their optimal and tracking bonuses reduced in order to be brought in line with tracking enhancers and computers.
Not all encompassing by any stretch, but definitely a step in the right direction.
Please do not discuss the merits of the drone assist mechanic - only the modules and sentry drones themselves. Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI. |
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
176
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Posted - 2013.12.07 03:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
I completely agree.
+1
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1891
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Posted - 2013.12.07 03:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
Drone ROF changes via modules breaks the game. This was discussed when the DDAs were first created.
Sentry drones have different drawbacks that turrets do not suffer from. Let's not also forget this sentry drone "problem" was a side effect of the Dominix balance pass.
Omnidirectional tracking links optimize there use on one drone type, sentry, and are marginally useful on all other drones, where as tracking computers (tracking computers are the correct comparison to omnidirectional tracking links) can be scripted to be useful to all turrets styles that are on the ship. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
Suitonia
Death By Design
196
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Posted - 2013.12.07 03:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
Sentry drone tracking is already quite unbalanced between the different drones.
Curator IIs have DOUBLE the tracking of Warden IIs and Bouncer IIs. (100% bonus) Garde IIs have TRIPLE the tracking of Warden IIs and Bouncer IIs. (200% bonus), and 50% more tracking than Curator IIs.
It's really hard to re-balance sentry drone tracking without addressing this, because if you nerf sentry tracking as a whole to put Garde/Curator tracking in line you make Bouncers and Wardens absolutely worthless. |
Jayne Fillon
Sanctuary of Shadows Axiomatic Dominion
148
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Posted - 2013.12.07 03:54:00 -
[5] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Drone ROF changes via modules breaks the game. This was discussed when the DDAs were first created. link? Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI. |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
445
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Posted - 2013.12.07 04:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
Increase in RoF for drones will increase strain on server proportionally, while increase in alpha/damage will not. I doubt that anybody wants nodes to crash even earlier during mass engagements. Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1892
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Posted - 2013.12.07 04:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jayne Fillon wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Drone ROF changes via modules breaks the game. This was discussed when the DDAs were first created. link? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1245091#post1245091 Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
Naomi Anthar
168
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Posted - 2013.12.07 05:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Rotfl entire article on mittani.com thrashed right of the bat xdd |
Jayne Fillon
Sanctuary of Shadows Axiomatic Dominion
148
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Posted - 2013.12.07 13:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
Naomi Anthar wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: Rotfl entire article on mittani.com thrashed right of the bat xdd That was nearly 20 months ago - I hope they've managed to fix their technical backend or at least improve it enough to modify the necessary attributes. Also, just because it wasn't possible at the time doesn't mean it isn't a valid suggestions. Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI. |
Seranova Farreach
486
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Posted - 2013.12.07 13:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
leave omnidirectional's alone. yes it may be a little powerful running with 2 of them but even just 1 is so a pilot can have one with out wasting precious mid slots if its not some battleship with 5+ mids. _______________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg
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Lyra Gerie
Bareback Pornstars Carthage Empires
14
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Posted - 2013.12.07 17:24:00 -
[11] - Quote
+1 if only to see them drop sentry bonuses for heavy drone bonuses on the ishtar. Imagine a brawler ishtar with heavies out instead of drone assisted sentries. Yeah, that would be cool. |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
564
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Posted - 2013.12.09 16:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
plenty of decent observations in the article, however...
One of the solutions is to severely nerf the ishtar and other cruiser-sized craft from fielding sentry drones, and make all of them primarily heavy-drone ships. Its worth noting that sentry drones are pretty much the only viable drone choice for PVE, and that sentry ships are one of the few competitive alternatives to the tengu for cruiser-sized PVE. At the same time, CCP has signaled that they acknowledge sentry drones as being very good for PVE and specifically exploration with their designs of the SOE ships.
I agree that sentry ships, particularly sentry cruisers, are off the charts for damage application and projection compared to other cruisers. But this comes at a tactical cost that is not reflected in the DPS charts from the article. PVE is simple enough in this game that good pilots can minimize the tactical cost through good piloting to get superior performance. It appears that the same is being done in fleet combat. I suppose the takeaway should be yes, sentry drones are OP, but they should be a little bit OP because they require a lot of SP investment, and they have a lot of tactical disadvantages to overcome that other weapons systems don't have to worry about. If there wasn't much difference in damage and projection between a sentry ishtar and some other HAC, there's no way you're going to catch me voluntarily using the ship that can't dps and move at the same time.
Regarding the alpha issue with the 23% damage mods, I think the importance of this is a bit overstated. In the context of fleet PVP, eliminating drone assist mechanics would go a long way in addressing this. Furthermore, there's little reason to think the technical issues behind the 4s cycle time have resolved themselves in the last two years. Although if my garde's could start blapping NPC frigs 100% faster, that would be fine with me, really.
Regarding omnidirectionals, I agree the bonus size is huge, particularly considering it doesn't stack. Its also a bit wierd that it doesn't improve falloff. In my experience they're primarily used for the range component, with the super-tracking of garde's being a helpful side effect. I would absolutely be in favor of these being nerfed or changed, however I would want the base optimal range of sentry drones improved.
IMO my biggest worry is that CCP will try to balance sentry drones with half measures rather than the full overhaul they've desperately needed. Doing something to sentry drone carriers, or changing the modules without rebalancing the drones themselves, or really doing anything without the balancing overhaul AND interface/AI overhaul would screw a lot of people over without properly addressing many of the underlying problems. Its not a good sign that so soon after the ishtar was rebalanced there are major calls to nerf it. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Emma Yobibit
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
57
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Posted - 2013.12.09 16:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
Its not that simple.
Sentry drones aren't unbalanced first off, they are just usable. Before last patch's they where useless, lets make them useless again yes please |
killer persian
Veldspar United
1
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Posted - 2013.12.09 16:40:00 -
[14] - Quote
Emma Yobibit wrote:Its not that simple.
Sentry drones aren't unbalanced first off, they are just usable. Before last patch's they where useless, lets make them useless again yes please Sarcasm? Why.
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Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
42
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Posted - 2013.12.09 20:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
Suitonia wrote:Sentry drone tracking is already quite unbalanced between the different drones.
Curator IIs have DOUBLE the tracking of Warden IIs and Bouncer IIs. (100% bonus) Garde IIs have TRIPLE the tracking of Warden IIs and Bouncer IIs. (200% bonus), and 50% more tracking than Curator IIs.
It's really hard to re-balance sentry drone tracking without addressing this, because if you nerf sentry tracking as a whole to put Garde/Curator tracking in line you make Bouncers and Wardens absolutely worthless.
ever checked the ranges of said drones, they have abit of a problem because no one will use 6 dla in the highs to control bouncers up to 200km
killer persian wrote:Emma Yobibit wrote:Its not that simple.
Sentry drones aren't unbalanced first off, they are just usable. Before last patch's they where useless, lets make them useless again yes please Sarcasm? Why.
hmm maybe because sentries are now in my experience the only drones who work in missions. They are strong but the tradeoff like immobility of them makes them also alot harder to handle.
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Clementina
Coreli Corporation
114
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Posted - 2013.12.10 01:04:00 -
[16] - Quote
I understand your argument that the Ishtar should have a bonus to heavy drones instead of sentries like it does now. I'm not sure I would actually subtract the sentry bonus, but I would add a heavy drone bonus.
But have you considered shrinking the heavy drones from 25m^3 to like 20m^3 and then shrinking the drone bandwidth and drone bays of medium sized ships by the same ratio? An Ishtar would go from 125m^3 to 100m^3 of bandwidth, which would be 5 heavies but only 4 sentries. |
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Umbrarum Paradisi
153
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Posted - 2013.12.10 01:56:00 -
[17] - Quote
The thing is, drones are the only weapons that can be actually destroyed. They're strong, but they can be literally destroyed. "A City made of Wood is built in the forest; A City made of Stone is built in the mountains; But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb-á |
uyguhb
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
19
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Posted - 2013.12.10 04:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
Jayne Fillon wrote: Summarized: Drone damage amplifiers would be better balanced having a reduced damage modifier in favour of a small RoF bonus to bring the alpha strike in line with other cruisers. Omnidirectionals need to have both their optimal and tracking bonuses reduced in order to be brought in line with tracking enhancers and computers.
"drone module balance" just makes me giggle and frown at the same time.
what about any of this? - increased Shield / armor HP + resistance module / modifier for drones? - 0 ways to improve the useless EWAR drones (expect jamming but everyone knows thats borked) ? - the majority of drone rigs are terrible. fix ? - low slot omni link?
What about the current cpu eating nature of drone modules? DLA II 55 CPU ??? sentry drones should have high alpha and low ROF, not the other way around. And it shouldnt require cpu implants and a CA- implant set just to make a halfway decent sniper fit. Oh yea...where are the drone implants??
Lets look at the TE and TC modules.
2 tracking enhancers is STILL less cpu than one t2 omni link. that seems balanced? Why cant i put scripts in omni links?
I wont even go into the drawbacks of drones because thats a very big list. i almost summed it up to missiles but even those cant be scooped right out of space mid flight.......
i can agree with the core of your idea "drones need balance" but like many of the comments in your article this is a pretty terrible way to find that balance.
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Luscius Uta
Unleashed' Fury Forsaken Federation
60
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Posted - 2013.12.10 08:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:The thing is, drones are the only weapons that can be actually destroyed. They're strong, but they can be literally destroyed.
Also they are the only weapons than cannot be overheated. So that kinda evens it out.
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Darling Hassasin
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
29
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Posted - 2013.12.10 09:10:00 -
[20] - Quote
In case no one told you on Kugatsu or goons united or whatever its called, drones only need to be balabced against other cruiser sized weapons when loki's and munnins have all their 720s destroyed every time they have to warp out of an engagement and Eagle's Tengu's Protei etc have to dock and refit new 250 rails every time a couple of smartbombs go off on their general vincinity.
Your mittanion article is so detailed and correct on some aspects while entirely ignoring other aspects that it goes past lopsided and well into the realm of the ridiculous.
Someone clever enough to write the good stuff cant be stupid enough to ingore the obvious so I call lobbyist on you. You should be ashamed!!! |
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gascanu
Bearing Srl.
48
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Posted - 2013.12.10 10:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
nice article bro; but like next time try to at least list all the facts: i understand that crying "nerf sentrys" is the new cool thing on the streets, but really, at least you should touch some of the sentrys handicaps so you article should not appear so retardedly biased .
that said, keep up the good work, i'm sure a nerf will be fast incoming to put those nasty drones in their rightful place and make our eve a little happier universe |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
134
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Posted - 2013.12.10 14:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
Simply reduce the tracking and optimal bonus on the Dominix and Ishtar even further. Sentries on an Armageddon are by far not that powerful as on the Domi/Ishtar. If sentries were nerfed, it would cripple the Armageddon as a new Drone boat again to meaninglessness. In my opinion, the only problem are the bonuses on the Domi/Ishtar, not the sentries themselves, not even the modules; so the ships should be changed back down in the first place, not the drones or modules (although the Omni is debatable). |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
230
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Posted - 2013.12.10 14:30:00 -
[23] - Quote
You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Drone assist is broken. Sentry drones and omnidirectionals are finally in a happy place. Fix drone assist. Or don't... If 1000 people really want to let someone else have all the fun in their fleets, let them suffer in that misery. |
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