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Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
869
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Posted - 2013.12.12 00:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile Fix Heavy Missile Damage Application (Rubicon) The problem: abysmal damage application against smaller ships for heavy missiles and heavy assault missiles The challenge: addressing damage application against smaller ships without dversely skewing damage against cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships (especially with the new rapid heavy missile launchers)
Challenge accepted! Here are the results. Heavy Missile Damage Application (post-Rubicon)
The "fix" requires all of one change to 2 lines of code. It's not a buff, and it's not a nerf. Everyone wins. KISS. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
1407
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Posted - 2013.12.12 02:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
I must say that I like the way the second graph looks a lot more than the way the first graph looks. It's interesting to notice that the HML output doesn't change much between the two, while the HAM output changes quite a bit in the middle. Still, the second graph looks as though there are a lot more options for useful missile damage.
+1 for the second graph and more options. |
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
231
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Posted - 2013.12.12 03:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Looks like HAMs get a hefty buff and HMs get barely anything. How is this a fix? |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
874
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Posted - 2013.12.12 03:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
Zvaarian the Red wrote:Looks like HAMs get a hefty buff and HMs get barely anything. How is this a fix? Heavy missiles become more effective against smaller targets, and they still have their range advantage. Heavy assault missiles become a lot more effective for brawling, and fill the recent gap created by the changes to the rapid light missile launchers. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
231
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Posted - 2013.12.12 06:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Zvaarian the Red wrote:Looks like HAMs get a hefty buff and HMs get barely anything. How is this a fix? Heavy missiles become more effective against smaller targets, and they still have their range advantage. Heavy assault missiles become a lot more effective for brawling, and fill the recent gap created by the changes to the rapid light missile launchers. And we have an option again for missile PvP.
HAMs need a slight buff, while HMs need a more substantial one. You seem to have that reversed in your chart. Honestly, without being able to test it's hard to say, but I can't help but think HAMs would become considerably overpowered if they used your idea. On the other hand HMs would still pretty much suck, though probably not utterly and irredeemably anymore. I still don't see the fix you are talking about. |
Naomi Anthar
172
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Posted - 2013.12.12 08:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
i wish my medium turrets were hitting frigates orbiting me , hell they dont even hit when i web them often...
Nah missiles are ok. |
Nariya Kentaya
Always Negative
732
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Posted - 2013.12.12 09:22:00 -
[7] - Quote
Naomi Anthar wrote:i wish my medium turrets were hitting frigates orbiting me , hell they dont even hit when i web them often...
Nah missiles are ok. exactly this, missile's fight-flavor is that no matter what the transversal is, what your shooting, if theya re within range, you WILL hit them.
its low DPS/alpha, because its near-GUARANTEED dps. |
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
231
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Posted - 2013.12.12 09:28:00 -
[8] - Quote
Where are all the heavy missiles in PVP if they are "ok"? Hmm? |
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
348
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Posted - 2013.12.12 09:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:And we have an option again for missile PvP.
Sure, because HAMs totally aren't very very good already. And because light missiles totally aren't the best small weapon system by a giant margin. And because Cruises/Torps/Rapid Heavy are unusable in pvp always. "I honestly thought I was in lowsec" |
Icarus Able
Traverse Holdings Setting The Universe on Fire
222
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Posted - 2013.12.12 09:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
Zvaarian the Red wrote:Where are all the heavy missiles in PVP if they are "ok"? Hmm?
HM arent really used in PvP because Hams Get out to point range without much trouble anyway so why would you use HMs?
And in large fleets the delayed dps isnt good no matter how you buff missiles. |
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Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
337
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Posted - 2013.12.12 09:42:00 -
[11] - Quote
As I've said before:
Make long range missiles good at hitting fast targets but poor at hitting small targets - Excellent explosion velocity with poor (large) Explosion radius. This way you would use TP's and Rigor rigs with long range missiles.
Make short range missiles good at hitting small targets but poor at hitting fast targets - Excellent (Small) explosion radius with poor explosion velocity. This way you would use webs and flare rigs with these.
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Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
231
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Posted - 2013.12.12 09:46:00 -
[12] - Quote
Icarus Able wrote:Zvaarian the Red wrote:Where are all the heavy missiles in PVP if they are "ok"? Hmm? HM arent really used in PvP because Hams Get out to point range without much trouble anyway so why would you use HMs? And in large fleets the delayed dps isnt good no matter how you buff missiles.
So Drake fleets just never happened then? Because HMs suck in PVP no matter what? Seriously?
HMs were over-nerfed and need to be buffed to some point between where they once were and where they currently are. Period. |
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
231
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Posted - 2013.12.12 09:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:As I've said before:
Make long range missiles good at hitting fast targets but poor at hitting small targets - Excellent explosion velocity with poor (large) Explosion radius. This way you would use TP's and Rigor rigs with long range missiles.
Make short range missiles good at hitting small targets but poor at hitting fast targets - Excellent (Small) explosion radius with poor explosion velocity. This way you would use webs and flare rigs with these.
That's actually a very good idea. |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
303
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Posted - 2013.12.12 09:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:It's not a buff, and it's not a nerf. Everyone wins. KISS. How is it not a buff, if it increases damage done by these weapons almost across the board?
That's pretty much the definition of a buff.
Not opposed to this, btw, but don't try to claim it's not a buff... |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
618
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Posted - 2013.12.12 10:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
yes cos that HAM tengu isn't at all OP
what we need are more missile types rather than just buffing the 2 of them... also i think the heavy part tells you it they shouldn't be great at tracking smaller targets...
now if they added a medium missile type to the cruiser category .. the name would suggest a middle of the park balance between lights (anti frig) and heavy (raw damage geared towards anti bc /higher sig brawling cruiser).
also those missile tracking mods we have been expecting since about 2 fanfests ago would be helpful for adding options.. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Iudicium Vastus
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
174
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Posted - 2013.12.12 11:04:00 -
[16] - Quote
Naomi Anthar wrote:i wish my medium turrets were hitting frigates orbiting me , hell they dont even hit when i web them often...
Nah missiles are ok.
Darn, beat me to it.
Buff turret tracking to hit small things too if people want a buff to medium missiles against small targets. Nerf stabs/cloaks in FW? No, just.. -Fit more points -Fit faction points -Bring a friend or two with points (an alt is fine too) |
Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
452
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Posted - 2013.12.12 11:08:00 -
[17] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:As I've said before:
Make long range missiles good at hitting fast targets but poor at hitting small targets - Excellent explosion velocity with poor (large) Explosion radius. This way you would use TP's and Rigor rigs with long range missiles.
Make short range missiles good at hitting small targets but poor at hitting fast targets - Excellent (Small) explosion radius with poor explosion velocity. This way you would use webs and flare rigs with these.
Except, good explosion radius can compensate for poor explosion velocity, while the reverse is not true.
Nariya Kentaya wrote:Naomi Anthar wrote:i wish my medium turrets were hitting frigates orbiting me , hell they dont even hit when i web them often...
Nah missiles are ok. exactly this, missile's fight-flavor is that no matter what the transversal is, what your shooting, if theya re within range, you WILL hit them. its low DPS/alpha, because its near-GUARANTEED dps.
If they're in range and their speed isn't too high. Just a small fix - it's actually possible to completely avoid missile damage, provided you're moving fast enough, no matter the range.
That said, imo HMs need a wee bit of a buff, HAMs are fine and RLML are ok as well. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
878
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Posted - 2013.12.12 12:58:00 -
[18] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Make long range missiles good at hitting fast targets but poor at hitting small targets - Excellent explosion velocity with poor (large) Explosion radius. This way you would use TP's and Rigor rigs with long range missiles.
Make short range missiles good at hitting small targets but poor at hitting fast targets - Excellent (Small) explosion radius with poor explosion velocity. This way you would use webs and flare rigs with these. It's not quite as straightforward as that in applying those changes, but it's an intriguing idea and I think I was able to replicate your suggestion (see OP for an update). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Fourteen Maken
State Protectorate Caldari State
109
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Posted - 2013.12.12 13:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
Iudicium Vastus wrote:Naomi Anthar wrote:i wish my medium turrets were hitting frigates orbiting me , hell they dont even hit when i web them often...
Nah missiles are ok. Darn, beat me to it. Buff turret tracking to hit small things too if people want a buff to medium missiles against small targets.
as if medium turrets can't already pop small frigates with a couple of volleys, and instacanes are just an urban legend, because turrets NEVER hit frigates, and nobody puts light drones in cruiser drone boats. |
Fourteen Maken
State Protectorate Caldari State
109
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Posted - 2013.12.12 13:33:00 -
[20] - Quote
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:As I've said before:
Make long range missiles good at hitting fast targets but poor at hitting small targets - Excellent explosion velocity with poor (large) Explosion radius. This way you would use TP's and Rigor rigs with long range missiles.
Make short range missiles good at hitting small targets but poor at hitting fast targets - Excellent (Small) explosion radius with poor explosion velocity. This way you would use webs and flare rigs with these.
Except, good explosion radius can compensate for poor explosion velocity, while the reverse is not true. Nariya Kentaya wrote:Naomi Anthar wrote:i wish my medium turrets were hitting frigates orbiting me , hell they dont even hit when i web them often...
Nah missiles are ok. exactly this, missile's fight-flavor is that no matter what the transversal is, what your shooting, if theya re within range, you WILL hit them. its low DPS/alpha, because its near-GUARANTEED dps. If they're in range and their speed isn't too high. Just a small fix - it's actually possible to completely avoid missile damage, provided you're moving fast enough, no matter the range. That said, imo HMs need a wee bit of a buff, HAMs are fine and RLML are ok as well.
HM's need a massive buff is there any situation where HML's are not outclassed by both Drones or Medium turrets. There is room for improvement with HAM's as well. Here's a graph comparing a HAM Caracal's dps with that of a rail Thorax against a MWD Talwar;
http://i.imgur.com/H9IkFZY.png
Also worth noting this doesn't include the dps from the Thoraxes 2 full flights of light drones which are very useful for dealing with frigates that can get under your guns. |
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Fourteen Maken
State Protectorate Caldari State
109
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Posted - 2013.12.12 13:45:00 -
[21] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Heavy Missile FixAddendum: The consensus seems to be that HAMs are fine for the moment, so I've revised the OP to just focus on heavy missiles. There were quite a few interesting suggestions which I endeavored to replicate.Heavy Missile FixThis version compares the current rapid light missiles, current heavy missiles and proposed heavy missiles. Damage application to smaller targets remains essentially unchanged, and unmodified damage to cruiser-sized targets has increased by about 50%. To achieve full damage potential against cruiser-size targets you'd need to utilize either rigs (featured) or target painters. I'm not sure how this potentially unbalances rapid heavy missile launchers though.
That is absolutely where Heavy missiles should be, anything less and they are completely outclassed |
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
237
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Posted - 2013.12.12 14:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Heavy Missile FixAddendum: The consensus seems to be that HAMs are fine for the moment, so I've revised the OP to just focus on heavy missiles. There were quite a few interesting suggestions which I endeavored to replicate.Heavy Missile FixThis version compares the current rapid light missiles, current heavy missiles and proposed heavy missiles. Damage application to smaller targets remains essentially unchanged, and unmodified damage to cruiser-sized targets has increased by about 50%. To achieve full damage potential against cruiser-size targets you'd need to utilize either rigs (featured) or target painters. I'm not sure how this potentially unbalances rapid heavy missile launchers though.
That looks pretty good. They still suck against frigs, but at least they can hit cruisers now. To me that is the crux of the situation. Heavy missiles shouldn't be very effective against frigs or destroyers, but they should at least be good at killing cruisers being a cruiser-sized weapon.
Also I do think HAMs need a buff personally, but only a very small one. And if they don't get buffed life goes on. They are at least usable presently. |
Fourteen Maken
State Protectorate Caldari State
109
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Posted - 2013.12.12 16:27:00 -
[23] - Quote
Zvaarian the Red wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Heavy Missile FixAddendum: The consensus seems to be that HAMs are fine for the moment, so I've revised the OP to just focus on heavy missiles. There were quite a few interesting suggestions which I endeavored to replicate.Heavy Missile FixThis version compares the current rapid light missiles, current heavy missiles and proposed heavy missiles. Damage application to smaller targets remains essentially unchanged, and unmodified damage to cruiser-sized targets has increased by about 50%. To achieve full damage potential against cruiser-size targets you'd need to utilize either rigs (featured) or target painters. I'm not sure how this potentially unbalances rapid heavy missile launchers though. That looks pretty good. They still suck against frigs, but at least they can hit cruisers now. To me that is the crux of the situation. Heavy missiles shouldn't be very effective against frigs or destroyers, but they should at least be good at killing cruisers being a cruiser-sized weapon. Also I do think HAMs need a buff personally, but only a very small one. And if they don't get buffed life goes on. They are at least usable presently.
Precisely, certain people see Missiles and before they even look into it they start ranting about OP and how turrets miss all the time . Heavy missiles have been the worst medium weapon system for a long long time, even after this change they will still be unpopular but at least they have a role.
Look at where even the nerfed RLML is against cruisers, then compare that with the existing HML against cruisers and tell me why would anyone want to use HML? It's laughable, they take up more fitting requirements and do less dps at the same range because heavy precision have roughly the same range as lights. A HML Caracal has 248dps with 3 BCU's, a Thorax has 50% more dps even before you fit magstabs, that dps is instant, and if you control your angular you will apply most of it... Oh yeah and 2 full flights of light drones. |
Fourteen Maken
State Protectorate Caldari State
111
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Posted - 2013.12.12 17:22:00 -
[24] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:And we have an option again for missile PvP. Sure, because HAMs totally aren't very very good already. And because light missiles totally aren't the best small weapon system by a giant margin. And because Cruises/Torps/Rapid Heavy are unusable in pvp always.
These are very modest proposals for what is a vastly under performing weapon system, the fact that some people are trying to shoot it down without even looking at the details shows how intransigent and prejudicial players can be. As long as your favorite weapons remain OP that's the main thing eh |
Iudicium Vastus
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
175
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Posted - 2013.12.12 22:30:00 -
[25] - Quote
Actually... if such a buff to missiles was to be. I could be alright with it even without buffing med. turret tracking if....
TD's affected missiles too! Nerf stabs/cloaks in FW? No, just.. -Fit more points -Fit faction points -Bring a friend or two with points (an alt is fine too) |
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
238
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Posted - 2013.12.13 00:38:00 -
[26] - Quote
Iudicium Vastus wrote:Actually... if such a buff to missiles was to be. I could be alright with it even without buffing med. turret tracking if....
TD's affected missiles too!
I love the crap turret users say about missiles on this forum. It's always good for a laugh. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
242
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Posted - 2013.12.13 02:05:00 -
[27] - Quote
Naomi Anthar wrote:i wish my medium turrets were hitting frigates orbiting me , hell they dont even hit when i web them often...
Nah missiles are ok.
Hitting is not the same as killing. Apparently you haven't heard of explosion velocity or explosion radius.
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