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Flinty McSlighter
Bound by Honor
2
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Posted - 2013.12.16 09:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have been training for Freighter, more specific the Obelisk...
Looking at "Advanced Spaceship Command" (ASC) I need Level 1 for the Obelisk
Looking at the Obelisk, I need ASC at Level 5.
Looking at "Advanced Spaceship Command" you get access to Jump Freighters skill at level 4 and via that you get access to the T2 version of the Obelisk the Anshar.
There is something terribly wrong there.
At Advanced Spaceship Command level 1 you should get access to the freighters skill, so you can use the Obelisk (as it says is the required level of ASC to use the Obelisk)
At Advanced Spaceship Command level 4 you should get access to jump freighers skill, so you can use the Anshar (as it says is the required level of ASC to use the Anshar)
So why do they "require" ASC at LEVEL 5... just to use the T1 version, when you can train Jump Freighters skill at LEVEL 4.... But still not use EITHER of the ships before LEVEL 5 ?!? |
Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
654
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Posted - 2013.12.16 09:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
In the olden days, they used to need ASC 1 only, but Racial indy V Fluffy Bunny Pic! |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
6958
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Posted - 2013.12.16 09:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
Welcome to the mess that is ASC. Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5310
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Posted - 2013.12.16 09:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
Flinty McSlighter wrote:So why do they "require" ASC at LEVEL 5... just to use the T1 version, when you can train Jump Freighters skill at LEVEL 4.... But still not use EITHER of the ships before LEVEL 5 ?!? Just because ... in order to irritate you i suppose There are no goons. The goons; 0.0 dream is over.
Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action. ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Oxylan
QRDELESH - Mutual Admiration Society
91
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Posted - 2013.12.16 09:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
Freighters are capital ships, so ASC at lv5 is like " do it or you wont be abble to fly" If it bleed we can kill it. |
Flinty McSlighter
Bound by Honor
2
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Posted - 2013.12.16 09:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Oxylan wrote:Freighters are capital ships, so ASC at lv5 is like " do it or you wont be abble to fly"
well then say Obelisk REQUIRED Level 5... and Anshar REQUIRED Level 5... not Level 1 Respective Level 4... See the point? Don't show misleading info in the game. If you want to provide the info, provide the RIGHT info. |
JC Anderson
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
975
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Posted - 2013.12.16 10:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
This is due to the recent skill overhaul.
Basically, CCP had to do it this way in order to keep to the "If you can fly it now, then you can fly it later" promise.
For example, it used to be that you can fly the freighters with any level in the respective racial freighter skill. When they changed the skill requirements, it meant that there would be quite a few freighter pilots that would suddenly no longer meet the minimum skills needed to fly ships that they already owned.
Before / After (The pre-req overhaul)
Obelisk
Gallente Freighter (Before) 1 (After) 1 Advanced spaceship command (Before) 1 (After) 5 Spaceship command (Before) 5 (After) 5 Gallente Industrial (Before) 5 (After) 3 Gallente Frigate (Before) 3 (After) 0
On any of these ships, it is the top of the skill tree that is needed to get in and fly a ship.
Meaning, that before the skill change, anybody with Gallente Freighter level 1 could sit in the Obelisk. The pre req at the time for the Gallente freighter skill itself was only advanced spaceship command 1.
So what happened is that, after the skill requirements changed, freighter pilots who already owned and flew freighters could STILL fly them with Gallente freighter 1, despite only having advanced spaceship command 1.
But NOW, there is a req of advanced spaceship command 5 in that skill tree. Many prior freighter pilots would find themselves unable to fly their ships right after the patch if it wasn't handled this way.
What you are seeing is CCP's creative way to keep their promise after the changes took place.
This is also why so many people rushed to get the freighter skill before the skill changes took place. ;) Knowing that it would take a hell of a lot longer if they waited until after. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
6959
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 10:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
Oxylan wrote:Freighters are capital ships I realize this is being pedantic, but despite what the market categories and build requirements say they aren't capital ships.
Carriers, dreadnoughts, supercarriers, titans, and the Rorqual are all capital ships. Freighters, jump freighters, and the Orca are not.
The reason for making this distinction is so we can make statements like "capital ships can't use stargates" and "capital ships require the Capital Ships skill". These statements are both true if we only consider the former group to be capital ships. Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |
handige harrie
Hedion University Amarr Empire
137
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Posted - 2013.12.16 11:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
Flinty McSlighter wrote:Oxylan wrote:Freighters are capital ships, so ASC at lv5 is like " do it or you wont be abble to fly" well then say Obelisk REQUIRED Level 5... and Anshar REQUIRED Level 5... not Level 1 Respective Level 4... See the point? Don't show misleading info in the game. If you want to provide the info, provide the RIGHT info.
Anshar does require ASC lvl 5, since it requires it nested in the Gallente Freighter skill req. I don't really see the problem. It's convoluted but thats because CCP reworked the Freighter skills, but not the JF skills yet.
I don't really get why you're making such a problem out of something so trivial though Baddest poster ever |
Flinty McSlighter
Bound by Honor
3
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Posted - 2013.12.16 11:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
Handige Harrie: It's trivial to you, but not to me, because one place it says I only need "insert skill" and thats a pretty quick train since I already have all the other skills leading up to that.
Then I go get the ship because I am so close to having the skill trained that says it opens up the ship, then in the ship pre-req I suddenly need level 5 and not level 1 and have like a MONTH more training than what I was lead to believe as I already proved.
JC Anderson: Thanks for your long explanation, it makes sense that way but is still very frustrating when you try to see through the skills and it shows you can use... but no you still can't use... I figured their new system was to make it EASIER to figure out, but because of the patchwork it is more frustrating at some points.
I must say I would have been happier if they had just show the REAL required skills and then just granted the skill to those already flying freighters (yes some would prolly have whined about free skillz and what not) but it would have been cleaner that way, considering what mess people like me face when we try to work out our skills. |
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JC Anderson
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
985
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Posted - 2013.12.16 11:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
Well yeah on that I agree. There could have been cleaner ways to handle it simply in regard to not confusing people who look at the requirements and nested requirements.
At the same time though, the skill overhaul wasn't exactly an easy thing for them to pull off and still keep to the promise of fly it now fly it later. For the changes that involved splitting universal skills (BC/DEST/ETC) into individual racial variants, it was a bit easier.
Changes to freighter requirements were another creature entirely since they were already split into racial variant skills and they were not adding entirely new skills.
Oh and yes I guess in some ways it kind of stood against the notion that the skill overhaul was to make things easier to understand. ;) |
Flinty McSlighter
Bound by Honor
3
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Posted - 2013.12.16 12:27:00 -
[12] - Quote
aah no not the overhaul but the way they view what skills are good for at level I-II-III-IV-V now, which is really handy (when it actually shows the correct info) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
17799
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Posted - 2013.12.16 13:39:00 -
[13] - Quote
Just to be clear here.
Don't confuse the requirements to train the skill with the requirements to fly the ship. Each skill will have certain prereqs, and they will all be designed as self-contained units without any notion of what other related skills might require.
SoGǪ
You do not have to have ASC V to fly either a freighter or a JF. In fact, you don't need the skill at all to fly a JF, and only at level I to fly a freighter. This is a completely different thing than what you need in order to train the [Racial] Freighter and Jump Freighter skills.
Yes, you need ASC V these days to inject a Freighter skill and you need ASC IV to inject the Jump Freighter skill, but in skill tree terms, the two are not actually related so the prereqs of one don't matter for the prereqs of the other. In purely practical terms, it just means that you might as well inject JF while you're trying to qualify for the base freighter skills.
Also in practical terms, the difference between the actual ship prereqs and the prereqs for the skills involved means that, once you've injected your freighter skill, ASC is no longer particularly relevant for you (aside from the bonus it provides). You could be podded down to 900k SP and still be able to fly your freighter, because there's no chance that you'll ever lose that first level of ASC that you need to fly it. It also means that if you already have the freighter skill injected, there's no reason for you to worry about what it says about ASC lower down in the prereq tiers GÇö those tiers are now irrelevant to you since you fulfil the requirements for the ship. In the animation linked above, the character can fly Arks and Providences just fine, in spite of only having ASC IV, because the first tier of skills (Amarr Freighter IV, JF I, JDC I for the Ark; Amarr Freighter I and ASC I for the Providence) are all trained to the appropriate levels. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Annette Nolen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
8
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Posted - 2013.12.16 17:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
Just worth pointing out (again, as someone else has mentioned already) that before the skill change you had to train racial industrial to V as a pre-req instead, so total training time has not really changed.
More importantly, training ASC to V is actually useful to a freighter pilot, whereas racial industrial to V was not. So for (roughly) the same amount of training time you are actually getting more useful skills that directly apply to freighter piloting. Which was sort of the general point of the ship skill overhaul (making pre-requisite skills more directly applicable to streamline specialization).
So yeah, sorry it was confusing but in the long run it's actually of benefit to new pilots specializing in freighters this way :) |
ElQuirko
The Scope Gallente Federation
2781
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 17:56:00 -
[15] - Quote
Just train ASC. We all did it, we don't talk about it. It's one of those things. Dodixie > Hek |
Rhatar Khurin
Happy Asteroid Ltd
396
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Posted - 2013.12.16 18:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
There are two ships i own that i shouldn't technically be able to atm. My obelisk and my sleipner. The command ship skill changes were even more drastic that the freighter changes imo as you now need stacks of warfare link skills unlike before. |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
647
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Posted - 2013.12.16 18:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
if im reading this right, the only problem is that the Jump Freighter skillbook doesn't have its requirement of ASC to be level 5, despite it being level 5 to fly the ship that uses jump freighters.
not a big deal. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
17799
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 18:13:00 -
[18] - Quote
Rhatar Khurin wrote:There are two ships i own that i shouldn't technically be able to atm. My obelisk and my sleipner. The command ship skill changes were even more drastic that the freighter changes imo as you now need stacks of warfare link skills unlike before. That's just it GÇö there's no GÇ£shouldn't technicallyGÇ¥ about it. You should, now as always. All that changed was some prereqs to the prereqs, not to the ships themselves. In the past, you could have lost those pre-prereqs from a podding or the like and still be able to fly your ship; now you simply never had them at the pre-prereq levels, and you can still fly your ships.
The ability to fly a ship with huge gaps in your prerequisite skill tree has always been there, only now, it has become a bit more common as some prereqs have been altered, creating those gaps through skill alterations rather than pod losses.
Batelle wrote:if im reading this right, the only problem is that the Jump Freighter skillbook doesn't have its requirement of ASC to be level 5, despite it being level 5 to fly the ship that uses jump freighters.
not a big deal. There's also the question of why it should need ASC V to begin with. It's a T2 role skill, which generally comes with a different skew on its prereq skills than the T1 hull does. JFs get their skill depth through the jump drive skills, as opposed to the freighters that get theirs through a more normal collection of spaceship command skills. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
JC Anderson
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
985
|
Posted - 2013.12.17 00:35:00 -
[19] - Quote
Annette Nolen wrote:Just worth pointing out (again, as someone else has mentioned already) that before the skill change you had to train racial industrial to V as a pre-req instead, so total training time has not really changed.
More importantly, training ASC to V is actually useful to a freighter pilot, whereas racial industrial to V was not. So for (roughly) the same amount of training time you are actually getting more useful skills that directly apply to freighter piloting. Which was sort of the general point of the ship skill overhaul (making pre-requisite skills more directly applicable to streamline specialization).
So yeah, sorry it was confusing but in the long run it's actually of benefit to new pilots specializing in freighters this way :)
^^ If there was anybody to accept advice and opinions from when it comes to freighters it would be a Red Frog freighter pilot. |
45thtiger 0109
AL3XAND3R.
26
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Posted - 2013.12.17 01:47:00 -
[20] - Quote
Flinty McSlighter wrote:I have been training for Freighter, more specific the Obelisk... Looking at "Advanced Spaceship Command" (ASC) I need Level 1 for the Obelisk Looking at the Obelisk, I need ASC at Level 5. Looking at "Advanced Spaceship Command" you get access to Jump Freighters skill at level 4 and via that you get access to the T2 version of the Obelisk the Anshar. There is something terribly wrong there. At Advanced Spaceship Command level 1 you should get access to the freighters skill, so you can use the Obelisk (as it says is the required level of ASC to use the Obelisk) At Advanced Spaceship Command level 4 you should get access to jump freighers skill, so you can use the Anshar (as it says is the required level of ASC to use the Anshar) So why do they "require" ASC at LEVEL 5... just to use the T1 version, when you can train Jump Freighters skill at LEVEL 4.... But still not use EITHER of the ships before LEVEL 5 ?!? Image: http://www.simpelt-liv.dk/tmp/obelisk-freighter-skill.jpgImage2: http://www.simpelt-liv.dk/tmp/anshar-obelisk.jpgedit: added pic links
Also to add Freighters and JF & Orca uses Capital Parts to build them.
In my Books they are cap ships in one form or another. I am not a CCP employee-ájust having a input in the EvE forum
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