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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
346
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 04:11:00 -
[31] - Quote
One might have a valid argument that the module uses too much cap but I don't see any argument about how this skill works. It makes the module change resists faster at the cost of more cap. Exactly the same as repair systems makes an armor repper repair more armor at the cost of more cap.
How is it worse to have it change resistance faster? Yes it uses more cap but it works BETTER doing so. |
Daenika
MMO-Mechanics.com
32
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 05:49:00 -
[32] - Quote
IIshira wrote:One might have a valid argument that the module uses too much cap but I don't see any argument about how this skill works. It makes the module change resists faster at the cost of more cap. Exactly the same as repair systems makes an armor repper repair more armor at the cost of more cap.
How is it worse to have it change resistance faster? Yes it uses more cap but it works BETTER doing so.
Problem is the timing. A repair system works faster for the entire fight. A turret works faster for the entire fight. A RAH only works faster until its at optimal resists, at which point it's nothing more than a hardener tailored to those resists.
If you're taking variable damage over the course of a fight, sure, it's fantastic, but if it's just there to tailor your resists to your single opponent, that skill only benefits you for the first ~minute of the fight, after which it's purely a penalty. The same cannot be said of repair, boost, or turret systems. |
Sarah Nahrnid
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Nulli Secunda
16
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Posted - 2013.12.25 12:37:00 -
[33] - Quote
Destriouth Hollow wrote:I am a heavy user of the "Reactor Armor Plating" in small-scale/solo PvP. These fights usually last several minutes, because that's how long the cap-boosters last. Once you run out of cap-boosters however your dead!
:words:
The skill is therefore for most uses really bad for smaller ships and needs fixing, to bring the cap-need in line with the cycle time.
As I literally JUST checked that very same skill here is what I was greeted with: Reduces duration time of Reactive Armor Hardeners by 10% per level and capacitor need by 5% per level.
Now, on the attributes page, we're greeted with the following: Capacitor Need Bonus -5 %
So, fixed long ago friend +1 though |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
43
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Posted - 2013.12.25 13:56:00 -
[34] - Quote
Sarah Nahrnid wrote:Destriouth Hollow wrote:I am a heavy user of the "Reactor Armor Plating" in small-scale/solo PvP. These fights usually last several minutes, because that's how long the cap-boosters last. Once you run out of cap-boosters however your dead!
:words:
The skill is therefore for most uses really bad for smaller ships and needs fixing, to bring the cap-need in line with the cycle time. As I literally JUST checked that very same skill here is what I was greeted with: Reduces duration time of Reactive Armor Hardeners by 10% per level and capacitor need by 5% per level. Now, on the attributes page, we're greeted with the following: Capacitor Need Bonus -5 % So, fixed long ago friend +1 though
I'm sorry - the attributes of what?
from what I'm seeing - your cap need is going up by 25% a level still |
TeeKay Latef
Birds of Steel Kraftwerk.
7
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Posted - 2013.12.25 14:33:00 -
[35] - Quote
+1 to op
Best thing to do atm is to train the skill to 2 or 3 and overload the module at the beginning of the fight for 2 or 3 cycles.
Even if cap was reduced, it would still eat enough and cycle to slow for frig battles.
Granted there are modules that need more cap with higher skills, but their bonus provided due to the higher cycle time is weights more than the disadvantage.
CCP please fix and give us a T2 version with 20% to make all shield users cry.
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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
535
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 15:00:00 -
[36] - Quote
Daenika wrote:IIshira wrote:One might have a valid argument that the module uses too much cap but I don't see any argument about how this skill works. It makes the module change resists faster at the cost of more cap. Exactly the same as repair systems makes an armor repper repair more armor at the cost of more cap.
How is it worse to have it change resistance faster? Yes it uses more cap but it works BETTER doing so. Problem is the timing. A repair system works faster for the entire fight. A turret works faster for the entire fight. A RAH only works faster until its at optimal resists, at which point it's nothing more than a hardener tailored to those resists. If you're taking variable damage over the course of a fight, sure, it's fantastic, but if it's just there to tailor your resists to your single opponent, that skill only benefits you for the first ~minute of the fight, after which it's purely a penalty. The same cannot be said of repair, boost, or turret systems.
You do have a valid point there. Maybe the thing needs to stop using cap once it stops changing resists. I would guess this would be too complicated on the server end though.
I would say that having it react faster would still outweigh the extra cap it uses. Of course everything is situation in Eve but most PVP fights I've been in went by in a few minutes. You either die horribly or you kill the enemy fleet. I do know some battles last longer so maybe in that situation a RAH isn't the best choice. |
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
145
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 15:00:00 -
[37] - Quote
While we're at it can Tactical Shield Manipulation be changed to something that isn't counterproductive for actually tanking? |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
535
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 15:03:00 -
[38] - Quote
Sal Landry wrote:While we're at it can Tactical Shield Manipulation be changed to something that isn't counterproductive for actually tanking?
This is an interesting skill. You have to get it to level 4 for the T2 module but from what I've been told at level 5 it's actually worse on everything sub capital. I'm not sure if that's 100% true though. |
Daenika
MMO-Mechanics.com
32
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Posted - 2013.12.25 16:16:00 -
[39] - Quote
Quote:This is an interesting skill. You have to get it to level 4 for the T2 module but from what I've been told at level 5 it's actually worse on everything sub capital. I'm not sure if that's 100% true though.
It pretty much is. Thing is, if you're shield tanking, shield regen is still a fair portion of your tank. Shield regen is at its maximum at 29.29%, and falls fairly sharply thereafter. Without Tactical Shield Manipulation, you effectively have a chance, as a shield-tank, for part of your damage to no be taken by the shield and instead be taken by the armor, allowing your shield level to remain higher and thus your shield regen to remain higher. Net result is more tank, even if it also means you have to repair your ship when you dock up next.
For an armor tank, it's an even bigger deal. That shield regen is basically throw-away damage reduction. The more damage that's absorbed by your shield, the less you have to repair in your armor. As a result, keeping your shield level higher is better, as it results in more shield regen, and thus more effective damage reduction as your shield eats part of the incoming damage. The beautiful part of this is that you can never overdo this effect. If your shield regen is higher than the damage the shield is taking, your shield will exceed 25% and suddenly start absorbing all of the damage until it drops back under 25% again.
Tactical Shield Manipulation kills this effect.
I guess that's something to be said, though. At least the RAH doesn't actually require Armor Resistance Phasing. You can leave it untrained or at 0. Shield tankers must train Tactical Shield Manipulation to 4 to even use T2 hardeners. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
1530
|
Posted - 2013.12.26 01:11:00 -
[40] - Quote
The key difference between repair systems that cycle faster as the skill level gets higher and the Adaptive Hardener that cycles faster as the skill gets higher is that armor repairers can be pulsed. This mitigates the effect partially, if not completely.
The Adaptive Hardener, as so many have said, cannot be pulsed and so you are forced to deal with the monumentally higher cap drain.
It should be -10% cap use per level, not -5%. |
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Sarah Nahrnid
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Nulli Secunda
17
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Posted - 2013.12.26 02:32:00 -
[41] - Quote
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:Sarah Nahrnid wrote:Destriouth Hollow wrote:I am a heavy user of the "Reactor Armor Plating" in small-scale/solo PvP. These fights usually last several minutes, because that's how long the cap-boosters last. Once you run out of cap-boosters however your dead!
:words:
The skill is therefore for most uses really bad for smaller ships and needs fixing, to bring the cap-need in line with the cycle time. As I literally JUST checked that very same skill here is what I was greeted with: Reduces duration time of Reactive Armor Hardeners by 10% per level and capacitor need by 5% per level. Now, on the attributes page, we're greeted with the following: Capacitor Need Bonus -5 % So, fixed long ago friend +1 though I'm sorry - the attributes of what? from what I'm seeing - your cap need is going up by 25% a level still
Armor Resistance Phasing skill. Check it in game, I can provide screenshots for the lazy :P
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Daenika
MMO-Mechanics.com
36
|
Posted - 2013.12.26 02:38:00 -
[42] - Quote
Quote:Armor Resistance Phasing skill. Check it in game, I can provide screenshots for the lazy :P
What are you thinking you are seeing that invalidates the topic?
The module description says that it's a 10% reduction in cycle time per level, and a 5% reduction in capacitor need per level. That means over 5 levels, the duration go down to 50% of base, and the cap per cycle goes down to 75% of base, so the module takes 50% more capacitor per second at level 5 than it does at level 0.
The attributes page backs this up. Duration Bonus: -10%, Capacitor Need Bonus: -5%. |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
43
|
Posted - 2013.12.26 02:57:00 -
[43] - Quote
Daenika wrote:Quote:Armor Resistance Phasing skill. Check it in game, I can provide screenshots for the lazy :P What are you thinking you are seeing that invalidates the topic? The module description says that it's a 10% reduction in cycle time per level, and a 5% reduction in capacitor need per level. That means over 5 levels, the duration go down to 50% of base, and the cap per cycle goes down to 75% of base, so the module takes 50% more capacitor per second at level 5 than it does at level 0. The attributes page backs this up. Duration Bonus: -10%, Capacitor Need Bonus: -5%.
strange; that's what I'm reading too..... It's a trap! |
Grayland Aubaris
Ocellus Technology
6
|
Posted - 2013.12.26 11:52:00 -
[44] - Quote
How about making the RAH able to accept scripts?
Rapid Adaption Script -> Uses more cap but adjusts to incoming damage much quicker. Efficient Cycling Script -> Uses less cap, but adjusts to incoming damage much slower.
So you now have the choice of how it works, and you can adjust this on the fly by changing the script.
Or even take that a step further and have damage type scripts which you can manually load in as needed, such as : Thermal Adaption script, Kinetic adaption script etc..
For balance I would make the script take 10 seconds to change. |
Zerb Arus
WormSpaceWormS
65
|
Posted - 2013.12.26 12:52:00 -
[45] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:Takanuro wrote:Please fix it CCP. When they first released the skill, it was just a cycle time reduction, and absolutely no cap use reduction. Then they added a cap use reduction.... but purposefully made it smaller. Thus its not broken, but "working as intended"
If I recall correctly you are missing one step.
1) when they introduced that skill it was just a cycle time reduction -> Yep 2) they admitted that this was stupid and added a cap reduction to match the cycle reduction. 3) they increased the cycle-time reduction but did not change the cap reduction accordingly.
(I reserve the right to be wrong) |
Daenika
MMO-Mechanics.com
39
|
Posted - 2013.12.26 13:19:00 -
[46] - Quote
Quote:For balance I would make the script take 10 seconds to change.
During which the module would have to be off, if it's anything like current scripts, which defeats the point, in particular since shutting off and restarting the RAH resets the resists to the default 15% omni.
The fundamental problem here is, a cycle time reduction is only useful during the first 150 seconds of the fight. After that point, the RAH will be at "optimal" resists regardless of skill level, so the skill stops mattering. |
Destriouth Hollow
Star-Destroying-Warlords Codex Aevum
64
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 11:49:00 -
[47] - Quote
Daenika wrote:Quote:For balance I would make the script take 10 seconds to change. During which the module would have to be off, if it's anything like current scripts, which defeats the point, in particular since shutting off and restarting the RAH resets the resists to the default 15% omni. The fundamental problem here is, a cycle time reduction is only useful during the first 150 seconds of the fight. After that point, the RAH will be at "optimal" resists regardless of skill level, so the skill stops mattering.
The skill will still continue to matter after that time. But the only thing it will do is trying to kill your capacitor (: Joke aside:
And as many have said already (which i sadly forgot in my original post): To my knowledge every other module whose cycle time can be reduced can also be pulsed. So even if you do have the cycle-time reduced by a lot u can just keep it off a while after each cycle to ignore the skill that shortened your cycle time.
With the RAH this is however not possible. Each time you want to cycle it, it will lose all of its effect and provide 0 resistances. When you turn it back on it will have lost all the benefit that "Armor Resistance Plating" has brought you and start anew. Therefore cycling it is a incredibly horrible thing to do in complete contrast to other modules like weapons and repairers. To cycle those for cap-reasons is completly viable during a fight. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
599
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 12:10:00 -
[48] - Quote
(Removed reply which discussed issues of bumping old form threads which is not in line with original thread post.) |
Anys Thes'Realin
2
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 17:51:00 -
[49] - Quote
This has always been a pet peeve of mine with EVE in that some skills are actually less useful as you level them up, and I agree, that is bad game design, especially since we can't unlearn skills. Tactical Shield Manipulation was always a prime example, and I since I'm only flying Armored ships, I only have it trained to level 2.
Armor Resistance Phasing I only have trained to level 1, and I really don't plan to train it any higher unless I absolutely have to.. I'm just glad I was forewarned of this when I came back to the game and created this character.
Other skills can increase overall Capacitor Use per Second for modules such as Armor Repairers and Smart Bombs. The difference with those modules is you can manually activate/deactive them as needed without any penalty. You can't do that with the Plating - turning it off and back on resets all of the resistances to the base of 15%.
I do like the script idea - allowing the choice between efficiency and rapid response. Scripts to boost the "default" resistance aren't a bad idea either, but I would introduce a cycle & cap penalty with those type of scripts. Introducing scripts could then let them rework the skill a little easier into something a bit more palatable. My (WIP) Roleplaying Profile: http://tinyurl.com/nfazlch |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
2776
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 18:33:00 -
[50] - Quote
Just include a -5% capacitor use per level as well. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
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Gigan Amilupar
No Code of Conduct Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
130
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 18:57:00 -
[51] - Quote
+1 to fixing this. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
116
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 10:20:00 -
[52] - Quote
Perhaps this would benefit from being like the mwd in fittings terms...a fixed reduction in powergrid/CPU/capacitor at fitting time (due to maintaining the resistance fields) and then a lower cap cost per cycle. Each cycle shifts the resistance according to incoming damage but then the %'s stay fixed when the module is turned off. |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
277
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 10:35:00 -
[53] - Quote
Lvl 3 is max even for capitals. Read skill before you train it. For subcaps lvl 2 is optimal. TIDI IS NIGHTMARE - CCP SHOW US THE TIMERS Reactivation timers on : MJD and more. Please like & post in this idea to keep it visible. |
Destriouth Hollow
Star-Destroying-Warlords Codex Aevum
65
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 22:21:00 -
[54] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Lvl 3 is max even for capitals. Read skill before you train it. For subcaps lvl 2 is optimal.
For PvE lvl 0 is optimal (: |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA
448
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 01:59:00 -
[55] - Quote
Destriouth Hollow wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:Lvl 3 is max even for capitals. Read skill before you train it. For subcaps lvl 2 is optimal. For PvE lvl 0 is optimal (:
Fix please? |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
673
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 00:38:00 -
[56] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:Destriouth Hollow wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:Lvl 3 is max even for capitals. Read skill before you train it. For subcaps lvl 2 is optimal. For PvE lvl 0 is optimal (: Fix please? I don't think there's an "untrain skill" option yet. This is why it's always good to read what the skill does before you train it |
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