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I am disposable
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.12.23 10:08:00 -
[121] - Quote
Nyancat Audeles wrote:Zvaarian the Red wrote: heavy missile ships are not built for brawling
In "a game of choice" the only sensible choice is to never use heavy missiles in PVP. You believe this is good?
Have you ever PvP'd? Is this troll or sarcasm? I can't tell. The Sacrilege, Caracal, HAM Legion, Tengu, Damnation, Nighthawk, Cerberus, Drake, Cyclone (just off the top of my head), and a couple of more ships would like to speak to you. If you think these ships don't excel at PvP, you need to learn how to fit ships instead of whining about this very powerful weapon system.
1) Read before posting.
2) HAMs are highly mediocre, and half the ships you just listed are giant failboats in PVP.
3) Just admit you hate missiles and that you will only be happy when you know you can own any missile ship you encounter with your turrets. |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
1021
|
Posted - 2013.12.23 12:43:00 -
[122] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote: And sicne the weapon grouping was implemented you NEVER EVER get the full 200%. The wreackign chance is calculated for each weapon.
And you if yout a combined wreackign for all the 6 or 8 guns then you shoudl be playing in the lottery .
So .. we are supposed to accept the fact that turrets can miss or just score grazing hits. But .. we are supposed to discount the fact that turrets can crit.
and because only half the turret data is 'acceptable', missiles are op because they always hit.
interesting ...
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
267
|
Posted - 2013.12.23 13:59:00 -
[123] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote: And sicne the weapon grouping was implemented you NEVER EVER get the full 200%. The wreackign chance is calculated for each weapon.
And you if yout a combined wreackign for all the 6 or 8 guns then you shoudl be playing in the lottery .
So .. we are supposed to accept the fact that turrets can miss or just score grazing hits. But .. we are supposed to discount the fact that turrets can crit. and because only half the turret data is 'acceptable', missiles are op because they always hit. interesting ...
basically.
I could add if sig is small enough and speed fast enough many missiles generate the same if not less damage than a grazing shot hit. But they'd skip over that too.
Me, I am a missile to gun convert then a racial cross trai. I personally will take missed and grazed shots for the chance at big money damage shots. It was something I liked in say canes and arty muninn coming from drakes and cerbs. If volley one hit for total crap you knew with missiles that was what you were getting from that point on. Now in say canes if target zigged instead of zagged to jack up traversal I can go from grazing to crit real fast. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
823
|
Posted - 2013.12.23 19:09:00 -
[124] - Quote
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
I love how you focus on one very minor advantage for a missile system that never actually wants to be at close range (because heavy missile ships are not built for brawling) and somehow come to the conclusion that it outweighs the mountain of advantages long range medium turrets have over them in their intended range. There's a very good reason no one uses heavy missiles in PVP. Stop ignoring reality.
In "a game of choice" the only sensible choice is to never use heavy missiles in PVP. You believe this is good?
actually ive been trying to say from the start that both weapon types have their advantages. play with the one that suits u best at whatever situation u find urself in. u tell me to stop ignoring reality, but its u that is focusing too much.
when u argue that HML's are never used now and therefore should be buffed, does that mean we should be buffing medium beams as well? There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |
Drake Doe
SVER Bloodpack Insidious Empire
313
|
Posted - 2013.12.23 19:45:00 -
[125] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Zvaarian the Red wrote:
I love how you focus on one very minor advantage for a missile system that never actually wants to be at close range (because heavy missile ships are not built for brawling) and somehow come to the conclusion that it outweighs the mountain of advantages long range medium turrets have over them in their intended range. There's a very good reason no one uses heavy missiles in PVP. Stop ignoring reality.
In "a game of choice" the only sensible choice is to never use heavy missiles in PVP. You believe this is good?
actually ive been trying to say from the start that both weapon types have their advantages. play with the one that suits u best at whatever situation u find urself in. u tell me to stop ignoring reality, but its u that is focusing too much. when u argue that HML's are never used now and therefore should be buffed, does that mean we should be buffing medium beams as well? Those were just buffed and they apparently out dps pulse beams now. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" ---Evernub-- |
I am disposable
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2013.12.23 21:20:00 -
[126] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote: when u argue that HML's are never used now and therefore should be buffed, does that mean we should be buffing medium beams as well?
I'd say a lot of lasers need work, but I don't use them so I won't pretend exactly what needs to be done. They certainly seem to have issues in PVP compared to their projectile and hybrid counterparts. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
1010
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 00:26:00 -
[127] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:missiles are op because they always hit. Indeed... Even if it's 1 damage per volley. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
824
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 01:15:00 -
[128] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote: Those were just buffed and they apparently out dps pulse beams now.
with T1 and faction crystals they do, and of course if u can actually manage to fit them on ur ship lol. There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
267
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 05:50:00 -
[129] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:missiles are op because they always hit. Indeed... Even if it's 1 damage per volley.
for some weird reason they think this is better than a miss or grazing shot. I use both. While miss and graze are annoying I happen to find when you connect strong it all comes out in the wash. or maybe time in say drake treated them better. I recall going wtf many times as I saw my drones competing with HML for being my best damge dealer. And the punchline...at the time my drone skills were crap. What evemon said I needed for t2 drones is what I had.
Or they will say use web, use tp. Okay, let's grant them that. But then I hop in my gun boats, use the web, have tp assist and get crit chances or jsut plain raw maximum damage for range. Missiles this gets you closer to theortical eft damage, sometimes.
Hate to go for the easy target here but....what I can do with a rapier for moros and phoenix supprt not exactly the same level of performance. My rapier can help moros blap bs'. My rapier might help phoenix hit a cap better. Might.
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Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
323
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 08:28:00 -
[130] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote: basically.
I could add if sig is small enough and speed fast enough many missiles generate the same if not less damage than a grazing shot hit. But they'd skip over that too.
You are soo wrong. If you fly an cheap AB frigate, without any tank you can easily hold an turret based battleship (BS) for ages at close orbit without being hit at all by the turrent (assuming the BS has not a web and no web bonus make the web 90% strong).
Against a missile ship it might take some time until cruise missiles will tear your untanked frigate down, but they will relieably do it in one or two minutes.
And no, these are not hypothetical cases... you will find some kills on killboards where turret-based BS have been killed by a lone frigate pilot. |
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Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
1060
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 09:11:00 -
[131] - Quote
Meditril wrote:Zan Shiro wrote: basically.
I could add if sig is small enough and speed fast enough many missiles generate the same if not less damage than a grazing shot hit. But they'd skip over that too.
You are soo wrong. If you fly an cheap AB frigate, without any tank you can easily hold an turret based battleship (BS) for ages at close orbit without being hit at all by the turrent (assuming the BS has not a web and no web bonus make the web 90% strong). Against a missile ship it might take some time until cruise missiles will tear your untanked frigate down, but they will relieably do it in one or two minutes. And no, these are not hypothetical cases... you will find some kills on killboards where turret-based BS have been killed by a lone frigate pilot.
and your ignoring the part where at long range a BS using turrets can 1 shot that same frigate, the cruise missile can't.
and you somehow make your statement sound like new data, but it's been postewd time and time and time and time again
why are you just regurgitating the same old tired dogma, why aren't you bringing something new to the table ?? |
I am disposable
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 09:19:00 -
[132] - Quote
Meditril wrote:Zan Shiro wrote: basically.
I could add if sig is small enough and speed fast enough many missiles generate the same if not less damage than a grazing shot hit. But they'd skip over that too.
You are soo wrong. If you fly an cheap AB frigate, without any tank you can easily hold an turret based battleship (BS) for ages at close orbit without being hit at all by the turrent (assuming the BS has not a web and no web bonus make the web 90% strong). Against a missile ship it might take some time until cruise missiles will tear your untanked frigate down, but they will relieably do it in one or two minutes. And no, these are not hypothetical cases... you will find some kills on killboards where turret-based BS have been killed by a lone frigate pilot.
Whenever this argument is used for why long range missiles are good I just have to roll my eyes. The fact is that a cruise BS may be able to eventually kill an AB frig at tackle range assuming that frig isn't properly tanked, but 90% of the time it won't really matter as that frig will have friends that will come in to kill the BS before that happens anyway. Meanwhile long range turrets do what they are designed to much better, which is apply damage at long range.
The argument that you are making is on par with a person saying an AWD sports car with a max speed of 150 MPH is as good as a RWD sports car with a max speed of 200 MPH because it handles better in the rain. Why on earth are you driving a sports car in the rain? |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
637
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 12:10:00 -
[133] - Quote
I am disposable wrote:Why on earth are you driving a sports car in the rain? My humble guess is that it's because rain doesn't ask you when it should commence. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
824
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 13:09:00 -
[134] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote:
Or they will say use web, use tp. Okay, let's grant them that. But then I hop in my gun boats, use the web, have tp assist and get crit chances or jsut plain raw maximum damage for range. Missiles this gets you closer to theortical eft damage, sometimes.
erm no... a web and TP will not magically give u critical hits. if this target is the same size as u u'll do good dps, just like with missiles. however if its a smaller ship u may still not make any hits, let alone good ones, even with a web and TP. I refer back to the video i linked in an earlier post where an AC rupture struggles to hit the exeq (another cruiser) despite webbing it down. the rupture does not get magical crushing blows or even a half decent hit in the fight save from its drones.
This idea that turrets get the odd decent hit despite a ships speed and sig is simply a lie. freak good hits CAN happen, however it is far rarer then many of u are trying to make out. so rare in fact that it makes a negligible difference to a fight, and is also in itself undone by the exact same likelihood of getting a freak weak hit or out right miss.
Kitty Bear wrote:
and your ignoring the part where at long range a BS using turrets can 1 shot that same frigate, the cruise missile can't.
ill get a condor, u get an apoc (the highest tracking BS in the game) with a web and TP and we'll spend 12 hours of me flying in and out and tackling u. u will never one shot me unless im pretty much flying straight at u, but we know exactly why turrets are good at this, and its a moot point. There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |
I am disposable
Republic University Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 13:26:00 -
[135] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote: erm no... a web and TP will not magically give u critical hits. if this target is the same size as u u'll do good dps, just like with missiles. however if its a smaller ship u may still not make any hits, let alone good ones, even with a web and TP. I refer back to the video i linked in an earlier post where an AC rupture struggles to hit the exeq (another cruiser) despite webbing it down. the rupture does not get magical crushing blows or even a half decent hit in the fight save from its drones.
What a bunch of nonsense. An AC Rupture with a web would have no issues dealing damage to a Exequror unless the pilot was completely incompetent. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
824
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 13:51:00 -
[136] - Quote
watch video
solo exeq PvP There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |
I am disposable
Republic University Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 23:58:00 -
[137] - Quote
You honestly think this video proves anything other than that the Rupture pilot is bad? |
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied Kiki's Delivery Service.
39
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 00:13:00 -
[138] - Quote
This won't happen because CCP is allergic to missiles and Caldari capital drea*cough*ships and doesn't want to hurt their brain muscles too badly thinking about it. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
824
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 00:30:00 -
[139] - Quote
I am disposable wrote:You honestly think this video proves anything other than that the Rupture pilot is bad?
certainly proves that u wont listen to reason. u've made assumptions with ur limited knowledge. u've just been shown to be wrong. claiming the rupture to be a fail pilot doesn't change the fact that turrets dnt track nearly as well as u think, and certainly doesnt aid ur argument that a web and TP will change grazing or missing hits to smashing hits everytime. There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
746
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 00:42:00 -
[140] - Quote
I understand the people asking for a ballistic disruptor in exchange but come on ! On most missiles systems, this module would be the bare minimum to make missiles competitive. Without counting the low slots that it would take, furthermore reducing the fitting of missile boats that are known for not being tanky at all. (Except maybe for the Drake, and its nothing compared to, say, a Prophecy).
G££ <= Me |
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I am disposable
Republic University Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 02:35:00 -
[141] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:I am disposable wrote:You honestly think this video proves anything other than that the Rupture pilot is bad? certainly proves that u wont listen to reason. u've made assumptions with ur limited knowledge. u've just been shown to be wrong. claiming the rupture to be a fail pilot doesn't change the fact that turrets dnt track nearly as well as u think, and certainly doesnt aid ur argument that a web and TP will change grazing or missing hits to smashing hits everytime.
EFT completely refutes what you are saying, assuming the Rupture pilot doesn't suck and has a decent fit. But hey you have a youtube video, so you must be right... |
NEONOVUS
Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us
544
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 04:48:00 -
[142] - Quote
Edora Madullier wrote:As long as there is a "Ballistic Disruptor", why not ? Its called a defender missile. And can completely stop the attack.
Also smartbombs |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
682
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 06:34:00 -
[143] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:Edora Madullier wrote:As long as there is a "Ballistic Disruptor", why not ? Its called a defender missile. And can completely stop the attack. Also smartbombs Except a Defender missile can't, most ships can't fit them anyway, and smart bombs are highly situational as to if they can even be used without screwing yourself over. And certainly can't be used in nearly every case to protect someone else.
To those saying the current state of missiles would need these to be basically viable, I agree, but lets fix the base state of missiles so they are viable without these against same size targets without prop mods, and still do some damage against same size targets with prop mods.
Then you can have these as well, and a missile disruptor to balance. (At which point just applying TE/TC/TD's to missiles becomes simpler than three entirely new modules and brings missiles more in line with EWar vulnerability).
But trying to use these to crutch missiles back to a usable state is not the right way to go. |
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
323
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 08:03:00 -
[144] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:Edora Madullier wrote:As long as there is a "Ballistic Disruptor", why not ? Its called a defender missile. And can completely stop the attack. Also smartbombs
So, when have you used Defender Missiles successfully last time during PVP? Defender Missiles are not usable, because you have to spam continuosly the button... and even then it will be too late to spam if the fight is at close range. You can only activate the module when a missiles is incomming. However, at < 5 km range the missile flight time is less then one second which is below EVE magical 1 second reacation time which means you can't activate the module in time.
TO MAKE IT SHORT: DEFENDER MISSILES ARE BROKEN.
Smartbombs... first they do not work near stations or gates and second you easily get sentry or concord aggression if using them in low-sec or high-sec and accidentially hitting someone else who is not in your corp. Not to mention, that you have be very lucky activating them exactly at the right moment.
TO MAKE IT SHORT: SMARTBOMBS WORK AGAINST MISSILES ONLY IN THEORY. |
Kasife Vynneve
Nourwolf Corporation Fortis Et Certus
5
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 12:26:00 -
[145] - Quote
Defender missiles should be replaced with a Chaff module that performs and improves on the functionality and is useable by every ship type. Fueled possibly by a PI produced consumable that is very low in volume but has a lengthy reload.
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
824
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 12:56:00 -
[146] - Quote
I am disposable wrote:
EFT completely refutes what you are saying, assuming the Rupture pilot doesn't suck and has a decent fit. But hey you have a youtube video, so you must be right...
are u for real?
this is like slapping ur ear and screaming Rainman style.
EFT says a lot of things that don't accurately reflect the game. There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |
I am disposable
Republic University Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 21:10:00 -
[147] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:I am disposable wrote:
EFT completely refutes what you are saying, assuming the Rupture pilot doesn't suck and has a decent fit. But hey you have a youtube video, so you must be right...
are u for real? this is like slapping ur ear and screaming Rainman style. EFT says a lot of things that don't accurately reflect the game.
And you think a youtube video conclusively proves an AC Rupture can't hit an Exequror while using a web... |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
824
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 22:38:00 -
[148] - Quote
tested in game. rupture double webbed and scrammed, using faction ammo moving away from single webbed AB exeq set to orbit at 500m. Hits on Exeq.
160 shots and about seven minutes later. Misses: 34 (21.25 %) Grazes: 116 (72.5%) Glances:1 (0.63%) Hits: 6 (3.75%) Penetrates: 3 (1.88%) Smashes: 0 Wrecks: 0
and with EFT as well, it has the rupture doing almost none of its turret dps until 1km. if the rupture wasnt using a web, it would have negligible dps until 2km. the DPS u saw landing on ur graph was probably its drones if u forgot to take them out/turn them off and when we are discussing how turrets dnt track as well as u think, turret dps is not important.
i hope this satisfies thats webs do not magically give u critical or even good hits against targets of ur own size (though the exeq has tiny sig). i also hope it displays that sig plays a bigger part during orbits than some ppl realise. if u are not satisfied, test it in game for urself. u will obviously be surprised.
math done, minds blown. should we get back to the discussion on hand? which is Ballistic Enhancers, not the turret tracking formula vs missile application formula (unless thats what u'd prefer, a change in formula) There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
268
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 22:38:00 -
[149] - Quote
Meditril wrote:Zan Shiro wrote: basically.
I could add if sig is small enough and speed fast enough many missiles generate the same if not less damage than a grazing shot hit. But they'd skip over that too.
You are soo wrong. If you fly an cheap AB frigate, without any tank you can easily hold an turret based battleship (BS) for ages at close orbit without being hit at all by the turrent (assuming the BS has not a web and no web bonus make the web 90% strong). Against a missile ship it might take some time until cruise missiles will tear your untanked frigate down, but they will relieably do it in one or two minutes. And no, these are not hypothetical cases... you will find some kills on killboards where turret-based BS have been killed by a lone frigate pilot.
Why would we be assuming no tank? Assuming no tank and given enough time a lone frigate can kill anything. I take a dread hull no tank and while painful and slow...it will kill it.
One day friend knowing I was doing a minny x-train showed me my fun future. Me in cruise raven, him in one of his loved jaguar fits.
I was doing good...till he popped my warrior II's. then it was an experiment of lets see how long till he gets to hull as I stopped firing at some point as I knew I was jsut wasting ammo and since a friendly fight he would stop at hull. I had already sacrificed several warrior II's...why waste even more isk.
The jaguar fit as it reletated to this: 1 SSB II, 1 Kinetic rig (ergo I knew not to shoot this or its naturally high em resist....so I was down to 2 ammo selections), 1 CDFE rig, 1mn AB, 1 nos, 1 web 1 scram. Scrammed me, webbed the warrior II's (pop pop pop as he killed them first ). As he, rightly so, had nothing to fear from CM damage. Speed and sig tank was doing its job to reduce damage. And yes I was painting him. Whatever damage taken was tanked with ease.
Jaguar has a low sig profile to start. TP works on boosts based on base sig. If sig radius is small, boost is small. Jaguar's profile so small even with 2 shield rigs, his sig profile did not light up like a x-mas tree. I did not ask if he bothered to train rig skill to 5 so I would assume he was at 4 to cut down on drawbacks. Even I trained all rigs to 4 if I have no intention to run t2 rigs ever.
MAx skills ssb II reps about 35 in 2 second cycles. CL II with CN ammo is about 688 with 3 BCU's (what I was running) at all 5's. I was at 4 mostly so since I cba to adjsut all this in eft will drop this 600. 600 dropped to 35-45 applicable damage is still a massive cut.
Due to many factors was cut down to damage levels easily repped by t2 gear (not even shiny gear). I know from actually flying missiles "always" hit is not always the greatness some make it out to be. Here we get a very academic argument really.
Would i be missing him with guns? yes. I was hitting him with missiles for damage easily repped. 10/20/etc salvos that had an SSB II tank cover it basically equals 0 damage. I go off realworld performance here. 10,20,30 volleys later....how red are the targets tank levels? In this case his jags shield tank was maybe a short hair of red between cycles. The definition of effective....this ain't it to me.
This is why missile users discount the greatness of always hit. If you always hit but the damage is so small its repped readily we may as well miss. See with gun misses you at least go this makes sense. I missed, no damage. Me in this raven (after warriors popped) was going I keep on htting but I am not getting anywhere.
LR missiles if jumped sr will die just as readily the tl;dr. I remember days of prenerf dramiels when they blotted out the sun and shooting them with HML drake. The above happens as well if they ran dual prop and used mwd to dictate range but then engaged with AB the rest of the time. Which many did. |
I am disposable
Republic University Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 22:46:00 -
[150] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:tested in game. rupture double webbed and scrammed, using faction ammo moving away from single webbed AB exeq set to orbit at 500m. Hits on Exeq.
160 shots and about seven minutes later. Misses: 34 (21.25 %) Grazes: 116 (72.5%) Glances:1 (0.63%) Hits: 6 (3.75%) Penetrates: 3 (1.88%) Smashes: 0 Wrecks: 0
and with EFT as well, it has the rupture doing almost none of its turret dps until 1km. if the rupture wasnt using a web, it would have negligible dps until 2km. the DPS u saw landing on ur graph was probably its drones if u forgot to take them out/turn them off and when we are discussing how turrets dnt track as well as u think, turret dps is not important.
i hope this satisfies thats webs do not magically give u critical or even good hits against targets of ur own size (though the exeq has tiny sig). i also hope it displays that sig plays a bigger part during orbits than some ppl realise. if u are not satisfied, test it in game for urself. u will obviously be surprised.
math done, minds blown. should we get back to the discussion on hand? which is Ballistic Enhancers, not the turret tracking formula vs missile application formula (unless thats what u'd prefer, a change in formula)
Good job, you are ******* up your own guns by orbiting too close. You have the tackle, you can dictate range. Good lord... |
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