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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.08 11:14:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 08/09/2003 11:15:33 This is the current EULA entry regarding macros.
Quote: (3) You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play.
It tries to cover macros as well as codes which have their effects, but are technically not macros, but by doing so it gives macro users a loophole by interpreting the text as it suits them.
Instead of reading it
"You may not use macros" and "or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."
as two seperate entries they apply the
"that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play",
which is orginally only to define a code, which has the same effect of a macro, on the
"You may not use macros"
as well. So a macro which has the same "reaction speed" of a human is OK in their twisted opinion.
So, I suggest to change that EULA entry to the following one, that should end the discussion if marcro are allowed or not once and for all:
Quote: (3) You may not use any macros. Neither are you allowed to use other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play.
free speech not allowed here |
Cell Satimo
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Posted - 2003.09.08 12:20:00 -
[2]
So under the EULA I can use my home-made robot with video interface to press the keyboard and automate keystrokes at a faster than human rate? | Join eve-webring.com to promote your site. |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.09.08 12:33:00 -
[3]
Quote: So under the EULA I can use my home-made robot with video interface to press the keyboard and automate keystrokes at a faster than human rate?
No.
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Scragg
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Posted - 2003.09.08 12:47:00 -
[4]
I think the scope of the EULA is correct. If you use a macro run outside the code of the game to automate some task that does not give you any advantage over people doing the same task manually then there should not be a problem. What does CCP care if you save yourself some wear and tear on your mouse or keyboard?
Now if you figured a way to run a macro to do something quicker or exploit a game system then that would be a problem.
Scragg, Tyrell Corporation Vice-Director Military Operations |
Jarjar
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Posted - 2003.09.08 12:56:00 -
[5]
Quote: I think the scope of the EULA is correct. If you use a macro run outside the code of the game to automate some task that does not give you any advantage over people doing the same task manually then there should not be a problem. What does CCP care if you save yourself some wear and tear on your mouse or keyboard?
Now if you figured a way to run a macro to do something quicker or exploit a game system then that would be a problem.
The thing is.. * Find a giant! roid * Start mining it with 7-8 lasers + harvester drones * Set up a macro to automatically drag ore to a container, and possibly create new containers once in a while * Tell a friend to pick the ore up now and then while you're on vacation.
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Scragg
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Posted - 2003.09.08 13:27:00 -
[6]
Quote:
The thing is.. * Find a giant! roid * Start mining it with 7-8 lasers + harvester drones * Set up a macro to automatically drag ore to a container, and possibly create new containers once in a while * Tell a friend to pick the ore up now and then while you're on vacation.
Say you get 50,000 ore per hour this way. The person sitting there doing it manually is also going to get 50,000 ore per hour. All you are saving is the clicking and dragging it's not creating an unfair advantage as per the EULA.
So I guess it's back to the origional post. Does CCP want to just ban the use of macro programs?
If they change the EULA to ban all macro programs how are they going to enforce it? Are they going to have Macro Jail like they did in Ultima Online? Are GMS going to spend hours and hours trying to bust people macroing? Are you willing to pay a higher montly fee to help pay the macro police? Or, do you say screw it and let people play they way they want as long as they arent doing anyting that gives them an unfair advantage?
Scragg, Tyrell Corporation Vice-Director Military Operations |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.09.08 13:35:00 -
[7]
Quote:
If they change the EULA to ban all macro programs how are they going to enforce it? Are they going to have Macro Jail like they did in Ultima Online? Are GMS going to spend hours and hours trying to bust people macroing? Are you willing to pay a higher montly fee to help pay the macro police? Or, do you say screw it and let people play they way they want as long as they arent doing anyting that gives them an unfair advantage?
The point is that macro's are already banned. However, with the current wording someone intent on doing so could twist the words to suit his macro-habits. With Ana Khouri's wording, this would be countered
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.08 18:07:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 08/09/2003 18:07:18
Quote: Or, do you say screw it and let people play they way they want as long as they arent doing anyting that gives them an unfair advantage?
It *gives* them a unfair advantage.
Let's continue your example - macrouser A and B are wprking from 8-18, during this time they have one miner and one hauler mining ore per macro. So they get 500k ore - 250k each - each day without doing anything.
While Joe honest has not a penny more in his pocket after he get's back to eve after one days work.
free speech not allowed here |
Dawson
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Posted - 2003.09.08 20:11:00 -
[9]
But then it could also be said, that theres nothing stoping joe from running the same thing whilst hes at work.
Ambassador Admiral of the Blue Join BSC |
Bjorn Nilfheim
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Posted - 2003.09.08 20:23:00 -
[10]
i dont really think that a hauling macro could be written, atleast not without solving an AI-complete problem, unless there is something working deeping the game mechanics to issue comands.
but if you manage, i want one.
Admiral of the Forsaken Fleets Pillar of the Fallen Emperor |
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Lithorus
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Posted - 2003.09.08 20:36:00 -
[11]
Currently the interface is so sluggy that the "accelerated rate" is nearly impossible :)
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Alkad Mzu
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Posted - 2003.09.08 20:58:00 -
[12]
Hey, i got a kickass EULA entry right here:
1) You may not cheat. If you cheat, you may be banned from the game. 2) We will define the term "cheating" as we see fit. 3) Our definitions may change at any given time.
I'm *not* being sarcastic here. Rulebenders, limitstretchers and exploit*****s are the scum of the gaming scene, and would be best dealt with in some way involving blowtorches and gasoline. Or any other swift and painful method one would have at hand.
All in my humble opinion, ofcourse. ________________________________________________
Head of Public Relations, Fountain Alliance |
Maiten
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Posted - 2003.09.08 22:33:00 -
[13]
Who reads the damn EULA in the first place?
So you want to ban the use of macros. Well the EULA also reads: other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items
So you sit there, drag your ore from your ship to the can. Rinse and repeat. Aren't you using a pattern of play already? I do that all the time. The EULA said "accelerated rate" so I guess I can't be banned.
I wonder if CCP actually used words like "you may not use any macros" would that also mean I can't use a macro to launch the program, key in my password? Perhaps I can sue them when I develope carpal tunnel syndrome.
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Johnson McCrae
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Posted - 2003.09.09 03:07:00 -
[14]
Not reading the EULA is like not reading the Law. Not reading is no excuse for flaunting it, and you have no privilage whining when it bites you in the arse. It ain't over till the fat lady falls on ya!
[ 2004.10.09 02:50:23 ] (combat) Your 425mm Compressed Coil Gun I perfectly strikes Guardian Sentry, wrecking for 747.3 damage.
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Karash Amerius
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Posted - 2003.09.09 05:09:00 -
[15]
I just wish people would play the game instead of "gaming the game".
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Drutort
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Posted - 2003.09.09 05:39:00 -
[16]
currently there probably is no way to stop ppl from using macro's
it can be fixed with some complex AI...
if they put some RPG into hte game... which would be annoying BUT at least it would fix the macro issue...
you have conversations with NPC pirates... from X time to time and it brings up a chat or UI and the answers or check points are always randomized... that way a macro cant read the game to click the right one... and for them to know which to click they would have to hack the game and then that are in deap ****... that can also be tracked when you hack...
the conversation with NPC can be simple they ask you for some ORE and if you dont give them they will attack you... simple eh? and if you dont respond in X time they will attack you...
if you give them Y amount of ore they like warp away...
and in the RPG style you can have Z amount of diff predefined converstations etc... so the macro could not work... without hacking the game and that can be tracked....
there you go problem solved.... now is CCP going to do this? HELL NO they have so many things to do... i dont think they even read 10% of this stuff besides the moderators support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
my MoBlog |
Fritz Ionar
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Posted - 2003.09.09 08:59:00 -
[17]
Quote: Hey, i got a kickass EULA entry right here:
1) You may not cheat. If you cheat, you may be banned from the game. 2) We will define the term "cheating" as we see fit. 3) Our definitions may change at any given time.
That's the best EULA I've ever seen! Seriously, that's how it should be. If it was that short the mjority of players might actualy read it to. |
NickPhil
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Posted - 2003.09.09 18:01:00 -
[18]
However, how would they even know that you were using a Macro?
If I had one to just move the mouse pointer round the screen, how would they differenciate that it was done by a macro or I was a retarded player that enjoyed moving his mouse pointer round the screen at insane speeds with no real aim?
Can they detect what is running in the background or what?
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.09 20:28:00 -
[19]
They can detect EVERYTHING. And they see this certain movies and pictures on your pc, too.
Er..
It's quite difficult to find macros, but there are ways. Usually much to workintensive,. though.
free speech not allowed here |
Igwilve
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Posted - 2003.09.09 22:56:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Igwilve on 09/09/2003 22:56:25
Quote: Hey, i got a kickass EULA entry right here:
1) You may not cheat. If you cheat, you may be banned from the game. 2) We will define the term "cheating" as we see fit. 3) Our definitions may change at any given time.
I'm *not* being sarcastic here. Rulebenders, limitstretchers and exploit*****s are the scum of the gaming scene, and would be best dealt with in some way involving blowtorches and gasoline. Or any other swift and painful method one would have at hand.
All in my humble opinion, ofcourse.
I would NEVER play that game. No ruleset should EVER contain interpretive clauses, because then no one can ever really know if they're breaking the rules.
It's amazing what some people count as cheating. I was once in a Counter-Strike tournament at a CyberCafe, and my team was bad. Unorthodox, but bad (we'd lost every match). The tourney was structured in 20 minute rounds, with two teams playing as many games as possible in those 20 minutes - whichever had the most wins at the end of 20 minutes won the match.
So, noticing that we tended to win the first game with really odd tactics, but then get owned after that, in our final match (against a team that would win the tournament if they beat us), we decided to play for a draw. We won the first game, lost the second game, and then ran away and hid in the third game. Since we'd adopted an unexpected passive role (hiding, and making no effort to win), they had to come looking for us. At the end of the round, one of us was still alive, meaning we'd earned a draw and some other team won the tourney.
And that last team we played was angry. They accused us of cheating by not trying to win. We knew we couldn't win, so the next best thing is draw, so we tried for that.
If an ruleset contains interpretive clauses, everyone will be afraid to try anything creative that hasn't been expressly permitted. No, the rules should prohibit specific behaviour only, and allow everything not expressly forbidden.
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Kiraana
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Posted - 2003.09.10 23:11:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Kiraana on 10/09/2003 23:13:30 For some of you who where curious about eve. I am not saying i do these or condone them just stating facts im sure of about eve.
-You can create macros that cant be dectected AT ALL.
-There are macros that allow you to auto haul using a indy ship
-There are macros that allow you to use drones as well.
-Macros take some time to make good ones but you can do if you know what your doing.
Thats just a reply to some peoples questions on macros.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.11 00:21:00 -
[22]
Technically, yes. But unless you are on the PC the more advanced macros, which allow you do do thing while being AFK, can be detected.
Simply by people shooting at your macroed mining operation, looting your cargo, pushing your out of range and recieving no reaction from you.
free speech not allowed here |
Caerdwyn
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Posted - 2003.09.11 08:48:00 -
[23]
They can also terminate your account for any reason at any time. They are not legally bound to let ANYONE play. If they say someone is macroing, and boot 'em for it, no lawyer can force CCP to reinstate the macroer, no matter what the exact EULA wording is. Every Westernized nation has the concept of "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" codified in business law.
That part of the EULA is more of a warning to potential macroers than anything else.
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BrazHos
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Posted - 2003.09.12 11:26:00 -
[24]
Worse than all this blather about macros.. How about enforcing the no selling of items/accts on auction sites like EBAY?
Its disgusting how rampant it is that you try to get items ingame only to be told go to EBAY!
Fix this before worrying about silly macros.
You people that are jealous of macro makers need to get a life beyond trying to ruin others enjoyment how they choose. Just because someone doesn't want carpal tunnel from clicking a mouse is no excuse for your macro "witch-hunts".
If you look a little, I'm sure there are many more important things to worry about than if someone has a mouse clicker mac running.
EBAY EBAY EBAY! Get your uber gear now! ************************************************ Coming Soon to a Sector near You May be hazardous to your ship so Be Warned! |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.12 12:00:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 12/09/2003 12:02:15 Some people are against macros because they are jealous about people using them? Yes, in the same way the polic is hunting criminals because they are jealous of them. Or doping isn't allowed at sports because people are jealous of doped athletes.
Right. People are against macros because they are harmful, they are not allowed and disrupt the eve economy.
That Ebay issue is actually a good example of that - how do you think make most of the powersellers there those "50 mil rollback" every couple of days? Killing macrominers will kill a good amount of the ebay isk sales as well.
There is some difference between macro and macro as well. One which is only putting ore from your cargo into a can is by far not as harmful (but still not allowed) as one which is automating a little fleet of BS and indys to afk-stripmine belt after belt.
free speech not allowed here |
Vasques Kroegler
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Posted - 2003.09.12 12:46:00 -
[26]
Bah let everybody use what ever they want. Cheating or not cheating. I don't care.
You play the game like it should be played and you have fun in it for a long time. You use the macro's and cheats and all you grow very fast indeed. BUT... you get to the end of it also very fast. So what's next? I bet you loose the fun in it soon. And sell it on ebay for the next one-day-fly.
I play it as it comes. It's hard, but it stays fun cause I did it and not a machine. Also I still got a lot to look forward too (and to work for).
So the scripters, tweakers and macro users will be gone in 1 or 2 months, but I'll still be here next year to get to the next level. *|||| Fleet Commander SuX ltd
aka Kroeglers Chick |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.12 18:14:00 -
[27]
It isn't that those people "play" the game for fun, they "play" it to make money..
free speech not allowed here |
Maitan Salok
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Posted - 2003.09.12 23:04:00 -
[28]
Quote: They can also terminate your account for any reason at any time. They are not legally bound to let ANYONE play. If they say someone is macroing, and boot 'em for it, no lawyer can force CCP to reinstate the macroer, no matter what the exact EULA wording is. Every Westernized nation has the concept of "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" codified in business law.
That part of the EULA is more of a warning to potential macroers than anything else.
In US a public entity may not refuse service to anyone with out proper cause. It is called discrimination. EULA means squat if you can prove discrimination. |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.13 00:37:00 -
[29]
Too bad EVE (-> Iceland) isn't in the US juristiction...
free speech not allowed here |
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