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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Logical 101
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
70
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Posted - 2013.12.28 05:10:00 -
[31] - Quote
Carmen Electra wrote:Just so I know for the future, is there some inty fit that makes this possible, or was it network lag, or was I just wrong altogether about pod safety in low? As I understand it, a Rifter, for example, that is loaded out with a SEBO, 2 Signal Amps and a TE rigged with TS Subcontrollers can have you locked up in less than 1 second. 0.9 seconds to be specific. In the unlikely event that your inty opponent had a loadout similar to this, it would theoretically be entirely possible for them to have you on the hook in less time (accounting for both wreck departure time and minor desync) than it would take you to warp anywhere (celestial or otherwise). 2010 was a banner year for experimentation with these fits, and I wouldn't be surprised whatsoever if I found out people were still fitting up these "pod killers".
Not sure if this helps, but from what I understand, pod popping is very much something you can plan ahead to do, and although most gangs see pods zip away, those with these sorts of ships have a different experience. |
MonkeyMagic Thiesant
Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking
15
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Posted - 2013.12.28 05:38:00 -
[32] - Quote
Kossaw wrote: Theres so much wrong in this post its barely worth pointing out the errors.
Name one single thing then.
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Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
969
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Posted - 2013.12.28 05:49:00 -
[33] - Quote
Finally some CCP support for our cause |
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
241
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Posted - 2013.12.28 06:15:00 -
[34] - Quote
MonkeyMagic Thiesant wrote:Kossaw wrote: Theres so much wrong in this post its barely worth pointing out the errors.
Name one single thing then. Just for starters, your "instacanes" are nowhere near instant, and are a poor choice for catching pods. With max skills and fleet leadership bonus, a double sebo cane has 736 scanres and thus a 3.549 second locktime, while triple is 989mm and 2.644s - and that's before the extra delay of the tick system.
A cane is not an inty.
An inty scanres starts well over 900, with bonuses...much higher. Because you disdained all my counsel, and my reproof you ignoredGÇö I, in my turn, will laugh at your doom; will mock when terror overtakes you; -- Ultimate Griefer's Handbook |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
1619
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Posted - 2013.12.28 10:13:00 -
[35] - Quote
MonkeyMagic Thiesant wrote:Time-to-warp for a pod is something absurd like 0.25 seconds, while fastest possible lock time is 1.0 seconds (and an inty needs 2614+ scanres for that, ie double sebo). A single sebo would be 2.0 seconds, no sebo 3.0 seconds. Point also appears to go through the second after the lock.
This seems to fit with my experience, which is basically that if you see the death coming, you should almost never get podded outside a bubble (beyond lag, or bumping off something that prevents warp).
In a game with 1 second server ticks, 0.25 second align time is not always faster than 0.6 second lock time. And I don't think pods warp as quickly as you say either.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. An enemy is just a friend that you stab in the front. |
Sirinda
Oberon Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
290
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Posted - 2013.12.28 11:36:00 -
[36] - Quote
Well. The server uses one second ticks. If the interceptor can lock a pod in noticeably less than a second. chances are that it will.
At least that's my take on it. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
92
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Posted - 2013.12.28 11:57:00 -
[37] - Quote
Sirinda wrote:Well. The server uses one second ticks. If the interceptor can lock a pod in noticeably less than a second. chances are that it will.
At least that's my take on it.
yep, my understanding was if both the align time and the intie lock time occur before the next one second tick, then they will be seen by the server as simultaneous. How the server then deals with that situation and which "wins out" I have no idea. |
ElQuirko
Black Dragon Fighting Society The Devil's Tattoo
3124
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Posted - 2013.12.28 13:33:00 -
[38] - Quote
Carmen Electra wrote:To be clear, my question was: "Can a pod align (I know they have virtually no alignment time) and warp faster than an inty can lock and scram them." Your corpse is telling me no Dodixie > Hek |
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
172
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Posted - 2013.12.28 13:58:00 -
[39] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Welcome to off grid boosted instalocking.
Except there's no such thing as scan resolution gang links
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Ptraci
3 R Corporation Boarderline Cartel
1635
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Posted - 2013.12.28 16:28:00 -
[40] - Quote
Sebos, boosts, etc. Sometimes when they really want you dead, that's exactly what you'll be. Can't win them all. |
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Jori McKie
Friends Of Harassment
114
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Posted - 2013.12.28 16:57:00 -
[41] - Quote
This getting your pod out while your ship is torn to pieces is some kind of CCP **** up.
A long time ago, i think about 2 years, it was impossible to catch your pod while your ship was going to explode. You just spammed "warp to" while you were dying and escaped.
Then CCP changed something (something server something to avoid that the server has to process 100x times the same command in a short time period) and for some time it was a very very bad idea to spam "warp to" even 1x click of "warp to" at the wrong time/tick. Dysnc stuff, you were still in your ship client side but not server side. It added extra lagg and your chances to loose your pod was very high. (I can remember a string of lost pods using Merlins) Later on the CCP again changed something, it can be bad idea to spam "warp to" sometimes but a moderate 1x "warp to" every second or so gets you out in 99%. The 1% and that is my guess, has to do with you hitting the button at the wrong server tick/ticks, while the server process your ship to pod thingie.
I explode a lot and i'm still not sure but i think the ship to pod process is deliberately ****** up by CCP so you can't get away for sure. |
Qweasdy
Absolute Massive Destruction Cult of War
52
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Posted - 2013.12.28 17:26:00 -
[42] - Quote
It is theoretically impossible to warp scramble a pod that hits warp straight away, whether that be from an exploding ship or from landing and warping off again. Don't let anyone convince you otherwise. Note: 'theoretically'
This is simply due to the fact that the server runs on a 1Hz tick, thus meaning when two things that take less than 1 second and start on the same tick they will both finish at the exact same time too. The server effectively rounds up to the nearest second how long an action takes. Meaning when 2 processes happen that require multiple <1 second actions the process which requires the least amount of actions should in theory finish first.
This is important because a pod will align to warp in <1 second. Instalocking ceptors will also lock in <1 second, as I've already pointed out this means they will both happen in 1 second no matter how stupidly high you crank that sensor strength up. So when scramming a pod trying to warp off the success depends on which requires the most actions. A pod will align in that first tick and then be invulnerable as it enters warp in the second tick, the instalocker will require the first tick to lock and the second tick to scram but as I've already said the pod is invulnerable by the second tick.
Therefore a pod is impossible to scram before it warps out... in theory...
As the difference between getting scrammed and warping out safely comes down to 1 server tick network latency plays a big roll in deciding if the pod gets out or not, if the warp command doesn't go through in that first tick, that pod is toast. |
Jori McKie
Friends Of Harassment
114
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Posted - 2013.12.28 18:23:00 -
[43] - Quote
@Qweasdy
That is technically absolute correct what you said. I can't prove it but i still think the ship to pod process is occasionally buged, spamming the "warp to" should actually guarantee what you said and in the very past it was. Right now i'm not sure.
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Arduemont
The State of War.
2861
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Posted - 2013.12.28 22:47:00 -
[44] - Quote
Magna Mortem wrote:Pods don't warp instantly.
Imagine a straight line. You're coming out of warp, looking forward.
You decellerate, but you're not at 0 velocity instantly. Now imagine you spam warp to somewhere in the opposite direction ... that takes time! You can shorten the timeframe between coming out of warp and entering warp again by warping somewhere that is in front of you. That way, you can use the fact that you're not at 0 velocity after exiting warp to your advantage.
All else ... implants to shorten aligntime might help.
Just wanted to dispel a myth.
Warping to something directly in front of you doesn't shorten your align time if your are not moving. If your at 0 m/s it takes the same amount of time to align to any celestial in any direction to warp out.
That may seem counter-intuitive but seriously, try it. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting Home Front Coalition
1074
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Posted - 2013.12.28 23:35:00 -
[45] - Quote
Pods simply warp insanely fast. So fast, the lock time of an 'insta' agressor falls within the same server tick, barring lag. In lowsec, it is rare but not entirely uncommon to lose you pod this way. Best solution? Not have such a souped-up pod. For me the benefit of training time ends with level 3 implants and a little cheap hardwiring, untill the day I find some insane fit to obsess over and have more ISK then I can spend wisely. |
Nerath Naaris
Pink Winged Unicorns for Peace Love and Anarchy
735
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Posted - 2013.12.28 23:41:00 -
[46] - Quote
Jori McKie wrote:This getting your pod out while your ship is torn to pieces is some kind of CCP **** up.
A long time ago, i think about 2 years, it was impossible to catch your pod while your ship was going to explode. You just spammed "warp to" while you were dying and escaped.
Then CCP changed something (something server something to avoid that the server has to process 100x times the same command in a short time period) and for some time it was a very very bad idea to spam "warp to" even 1x click of "warp to" at the wrong time/tick. Dysnc stuff, you were still in your ship client side but not server side. It added extra lagg and your chances to loose your pod was very high. (I can remember a string of lost pods using Merlins) Later on the CCP again changed something, it can be bad idea to spam "warp to" sometimes but a moderate 1x "warp to" every second or so gets you out in 99%. The 1% and that is my guess, has to do with you hitting the button at the wrong server tick/ticks, while the server process your ship to pod thingie.
This!
In fact, I recall some Dev explicitely stating that "spamming the warp button is actually counterproductive" as it messes with the ticks, causes lag or whatever. Don-¦t know if that was fixed, though (probably not, so "a moderate 1x "warp to" every second or so" is the best advice given so far). Forum-unbanned since 2011.10.20.
Need to advertise your Corp or service? Look no further, this space is now for rent!
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Carmen Electra
The Scope Gallente Federation
176
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Posted - 2013.12.29 11:05:00 -
[47] - Quote
Nerath Naaris wrote:Jori McKie wrote:This getting your pod out while your ship is torn to pieces is some kind of CCP **** up.
A long time ago, i think about 2 years, it was impossible to catch your pod while your ship was going to explode. You just spammed "warp to" while you were dying and escaped.
Then CCP changed something (something server something to avoid that the server has to process 100x times the same command in a short time period) and for some time it was a very very bad idea to spam "warp to" even 1x click of "warp to" at the wrong time/tick. Dysnc stuff, you were still in your ship client side but not server side. It added extra lagg and your chances to loose your pod was very high. (I can remember a string of lost pods using Merlins) Later on the CCP again changed something, it can be bad idea to spam "warp to" sometimes but a moderate 1x "warp to" every second or so gets you out in 99%. The 1% and that is my guess, has to do with you hitting the button at the wrong server tick/ticks, while the server process your ship to pod thingie. This! In fact, I recall some Dev explicitely stating that "spamming the warp button is actually counterproductive" as it messes with the ticks, causes lag or whatever. Don-¦t know if that was fixed, though (probably not, so "a moderate 1x "warp to" every second or so" is the best advice given so far).
But spamming warp button has a more "GTFO" feel to it
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Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
524
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Posted - 2013.12.29 14:08:00 -
[48] - Quote
Carmen Electra wrote:But spamming warp button has a more "GTFO" feel to it
This is the most important post here. The do it now.....warp nownownownow omg plz is the most important part of the process. here is a list of all the fiat currencies that didn't end up at zero value.....and here is a list of the places where a currency pegged to a real commodity has successfully co-existed with compound interest....-á Here is a physics professor explaining why sustainable growth isn't a thing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY |
Proddy Scun
Renfield Inc
46
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Posted - 2014.01.03 14:04:00 -
[49] - Quote
Iria Ahrens wrote:Using the right-click interface to get to a bm DOES take too long. When doing insta-undocks or other maneuvers that might require instant selection of bookmarks, have the people and places window already open. Current system bms will be green. So you can spam click them without the delay of the context-menu.
IDK - I use that method but still get podded by fast locking ships. Seems to me that something CCP changed about a year ago in the ship explosions makes the UI unselectable for 1-3 seconds at least on old computers. And that especially when added to the 0.5+ sec lag of round trip trans-Atlantic connections means podded quite often.
Also I forget but do auto-target modules treat pods of ships just killed as hostile? I was thinking not but if so ..That would bypass the wait for overview to show the pod. |
Cato Black
Meltdown.
56
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Posted - 2014.01.03 14:58:00 -
[50] - Quote
Your align time as well as the lock time on the stiletto probably fell within the same server tick, causing him to get you pointed before you hit warp. Unfortunately you are bound to the timing of the server ticks when trying to min/max mechanics that happen that quickly. |
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Nuela
Beacon Light Corporation Beacon Light Alliance
221
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Posted - 2014.01.03 15:13:00 -
[51] - Quote
Xavier Holtzman wrote:Carmen Electra wrote:... or was I just wrong altogether about pod safety in low? ErrorRon wrote:There's no such thing as pod safety. Or safety for that matter. I didn't see anything about "HTFU." I saw him answering one of your questions. Apparently you didn't like the (correct) answer to one of your questions, and you got buttmad about it.
WTH dudes? I saw the OP explain the background of his question then ask a question. I saw no butthurt.
Jeez dude, are you so low in esteem that you have to try to get/see tears where there was none? |
Carmen Electra
The Scope Gallente Federation
197
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Posted - 2014.01.03 16:25:00 -
[52] - Quote
Cato Black wrote:Your align time as well as the lock time on the stiletto probably fell within the same server tick, causing him to get you pointed before you hit warp. Unfortunately you are bound to the timing of the server ticks when trying to min/max mechanics that happen that quickly.
Yes, I've been understanding more about UI lag now that I know about the 1s server tick.
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
271
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Posted - 2014.01.03 16:54:00 -
[53] - Quote
Proddy Scun wrote:Iria Ahrens wrote:Using the right-click interface to get to a bm DOES take too long. When doing insta-undocks or other maneuvers that might require instant selection of bookmarks, have the people and places window already open. Current system bms will be green. So you can spam click them without the delay of the context-menu. IDK - I use that method but still get podded by fast locking ships. Seems to me that something CCP changed about a year ago in the ship explosions makes the UI unselectable for 1-3 seconds at least on old computers. And that especially when added to the 0.5+ sec lag of round trip trans-Atlantic connections means podded quite often. Also I forget but do auto-target modules treat pods of ships just killed as hostile? I was thinking not but if so ..That would bypass the wait for overview to show the pod.
I was mainly referring to using this method when exiting station to a insta-undock, not for post-pop emergency egress. During undocking my right click interface is too slow because the HUD is still coming online. When you are popped, your overview is already populated, so better to use the overview after your ship burns around you. And you will still be podded now and again. Because you disdained all my counsel, and my reproof you ignoredGÇö I, in my turn, will laugh at your doom; will mock when terror overtakes you; -- Ultimate Griefer's Handbook |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Test Alliance Please Ignore
462
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Posted - 2014.01.03 18:21:00 -
[54] - Quote
It is indeed possible for an interceptor to catch a pod.
Everything in Eve happens in 1 second intervals. If the inty has less than 1 second locking time and is spamming lock, he will insta-lock you. In these situations, just having a bad ping time can get you killed.
For example, I was once using a Nemesis to salvage T2 wrecks after a battle. Was orbiting a wreck outside of decloak range and inside of salvage range (~3000m). Had my finger on the cloak button when an interceptor decloaked from jumping into system. I quite literally instantly pressed F1 and instead of cloaking I got the "You cannot cloak because you are being targeted by someone." message. Never mind that I had pressed the button less than 1 second after seeing the ship in space. Nor did my overview show a yellow box. At the next server tick the yellow box came up. Next tick red box. gg lag. Free Ripley Weaver! |
Alt Two
Caldari Capital Construction Inc.
120
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Posted - 2014.01.03 19:43:00 -
[55] - Quote
Arduemont wrote:Magna Mortem wrote:Pods don't warp instantly.
Imagine a straight line. You're coming out of warp, looking forward.
You decellerate, but you're not at 0 velocity instantly. Now imagine you spam warp to somewhere in the opposite direction ... that takes time! You can shorten the timeframe between coming out of warp and entering warp again by warping somewhere that is in front of you. That way, you can use the fact that you're not at 0 velocity after exiting warp to your advantage.
All else ... implants to shorten aligntime might help. Just wanted to dispel a myth. Warping to something directly in front of you doesn't shorten your align time if your are not moving. If your at 0 m/s it takes the same amount of time to align to any celestial in any direction to warp out. That may seem counter-intuitive but seriously, try it. Did you even read the post you quoted? You are not instantly at 0 m/s when you come out of warp. You will have some forward momentum, therefore aligning to something on the same vector is faster. |
Caviar Liberta
Moira. Villore Accords
397
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Posted - 2014.01.03 20:39:00 -
[56] - Quote
Carmen Electra wrote:My alt lost a pod that narrowly missed the front page of eve-kill.net last night . Stilleto was waiting for me to come out of warp, had me targed and pointed before I could warp off. This was all in spite of the fact that I was manically spamming warp to another celestial. I was under the impression that even an instalock inty can't pull this off and that the only way to lose a pod in low (provided you know how to spam warp) is to smartbombs. Just so I know for the future, is there some inty fit that makes this possible, or was it network lag, or was I just wrong altogether about pod safety in low?
If your ship is about to explode then this will work for you but if you are coming out of warp that is another story. Coming out of warp and his scram is already active and just waiting to lock you then its no good spamming warp. |
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
568
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Posted - 2014.01.03 21:05:00 -
[57] - Quote
from a velocity of zero, a pod warps instantly (on the next server tick)
when dropping out of warp, you still have abit of residual velocity. this means your pod has to slow down, align, then warp. takes 1 or 2 server tickets to do so, and you can be pointed. same applies when you exit a station and warp to a celestial that is not in alignment to your velocity vector.
the only times you're almost guaranteed to get your pod out are:
1. you jump through a gate, are clocked, select a celestial and click warp > you will warp pretty much instantly, i've never seen a pod caight in this circumstance.
2. if your ship is about to explode, and you are spamming warp -- your pod poops out at zero velocity, so you should align and warp instantly. HOWEVER (big however) since you are in a fight, there is potentially a load of crap on grid. this can create client side lag, which is when pods tend to die even when people are spamming warp
hope this helps. |
Carmen Electra
The Scope Gallente Federation
199
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Posted - 2014.01.03 21:32:00 -
[58] - Quote
Chandaris wrote:hope this helps.
You killed my Bhaalgorn a couple weeks ago. I hope you're happy |
Miasmos
Aliastra Gallente Federation
63
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Posted - 2014.01.03 22:55:00 -
[59] - Quote
Carmen Electra wrote:My alt lost a pod that narrowly missed the front page of eve-kill.net last night . Stilleto was waiting for me to come out of warp, had me targed and pointed before I could warp off. This was all in spite of the fact that I was manically spamming warp to another celestial. I was under the impression that even an instalock inty can't pull this off and that the only way to lose a pod in low (provided you know how to spam warp) is to smartbombs. Just so I know for the future, is there some inty fit that makes this possible, or was it network lag, or was I just wrong altogether about pod safety in low?
The server ticks happen in 1 TiDi second. Clicking pod warp takes spam interval plus your lag to server. Clicking the lock on takes your lag plus spam interval. (same as clicking warp, mutually cancelling for many purposes with similiar lag) Locking a pod on a fast lock takes 0.7 seconds.
Rough estimate: 0.7/1 seconds out of the server tick (TiDi makes it easier) ~ 30% chance to get the lock on in the same server tick as the warp command, assuming similiar lag. Might leave something unconsidered here.
Edit: with bad connection / bad computer the pod spam warp lag is higher than a lock spam lag on a good setup, so SSD + good connection wins. |
LocoNut Coconut
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.01.05 14:47:00 -
[60] - Quote
Miasmos wrote:
The server ticks happen in 1 TiDi second. Clicking pod warp takes spam interval plus your lag to server. Clicking the lock on takes your lag plus spam interval. (same as clicking warp, mutually cancelling for many purposes with similiar lag) Locking a pod on a fast lock takes 0.7 seconds.
Rough estimate: 0.7/1 seconds out of the server tick (TiDi makes it easier) ~ 30% chance to get the lock on in the same server tick as the warp command, assuming similiar lag. Might leave something unconsidered here.
Edit: with bad connection / bad computer the pod spam warp lag is higher than a lock spam lag on a good setup, so SSD + good connection wins.
This is what i thought also, the (1/TiDi)Hz server tick is designed to help level the playing field among people with crappy machines, connections or long distances to cover. Being Aussie, I am used to rotten copper phone lines and thousands of kilometers of trunk. I beleive each action you log in the UI is timestamped not just to each server tick but to the milli'second' within that tick
For clarification (or probably not), I thought i'd explain how I see it as a round of pokemon moves.
After the tick, the server recognises the Pikachu Pod was ordered to warp 0.2 into the tick, and would complete say 0.7 ticks later, at t=.9
Unfortunately for him, the Ratatta Stiletto attacks at t=0.1, and takes 0.7 ticks to lock. While locking the pilot presses the scram key ONCE, registering that he wants that activated instantly upon successful lock. the pod pilot was too late, better luck next time.
Interesting point is that you only need spam things a few times to ensure earliest input of the scram/warp/target signal.
I'd like to point out that if this is really how things work (i'm no expert) I think any latency up to half server tick time (oyu need to see AND react in time) would be mitigated by this process. Of course there are still ways you can improve your system, by getting a fast computer, reliable ISP, and minimising client lag from having ALL BRACKETS ON ALL DA TIME among other fun things like inappropriately high graphics.
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