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EternalDark
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Posted - 2006.03.14 08:17:00 -
[1]
A simple question to the Dev team and the community:
What is the logic behind the permanent stacking penalties that are applied to our ships in order to get the benefits that come with the usage of Tek II ammunition?
For me as both a Missile spamming Caldari on my main, and a laser toting amarian on my alt. I have had the opportunity to get a feel for many of the different types of Tek II ammo. The pvp raven is crazy uber with precision cruise missiles, and deadly with javelin torpedoes. The apoc and geddon are insane with gleams fitted as well; however, I would like to ask why it is necessary to unload my javelin ammunition to get my raven up over 25m/s to approach a star gate, then having to reload again before jumping in order to insure I wonĘt get caught with my pants down? ItĘs annoying after the first ten times, and its insulting after the 100th. The same goes for the Tek II crystals. Why should I have to sacrifice 70% of my shields (even when armor tanking) in order to get a negligible damage bonus?
So while many on this forum could point out these problems, I have attempted to come up with a compromise that may just make tek II ammo worth equipping, and buying, while at the same time not making it so wtf pawnage that it becomes unbalanced.
So here it is (tear it apart if you will):
It says in most of the Tek II ammo description like the Gleam crystal: The ships shields must be strengthened around the turret to prevent critical backlashes. This is understandable, what is not is why the power is always being re-routed from the shields if it only draws power from that particular system when the crystal is being fired? The same logic can be applied to other Tek II ammo including missiles.
My idea is to switch the tek II ammo from a static activated state which permanently cripples your ship to an on/off activatable state similar to many of the other modules we are familiar with in the Eve universe. So instead of flying your crow at 1800 m/s into battle and getting killed before you reach your target, you can now decide to release your missiles at the critical moment, only then crippling your ships engines to deliver a killing blow. This change will not only make sense realistically, but it will also stay true to the storyline in every way. At the same time it reduces many of the headaches that plague Tek II ammo, and its usage.
-Eternal Dark
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Nee'kita Frist
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Posted - 2006.03.14 08:57:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Nee''kita Frist on 14/03/2006 08:57:54
Originally by: EternalDark For me as both a Missile spamming Caldari on my main, and a laser toting amarian on my alt. I have had the opportunity to get a feel for many of the different types of Tek II ammo. The pvp raven is crazy uber with precision cruise missiles, and deadly with javelin torpedoes. The apoc and geddon are insane with gleams fitted as well; however, I would like to ask why it is necessary to unload my javelin ammunition to get my raven up over 25m/s to approach a star gate, then having to reload again before jumping in order to insure I wonĘt get caught with my pants down? ItĘs annoying after the first ten times, and its insulting after the 100th. The same goes for the Tek II crystals. Why should I have to sacrifice 70% of my shields (even when armor tanking) in order to get a negligible damage bonus?
You answered your own question at the start of that paragraph.
And no to "you should be able to decide when it cripples" you by being able to launch a volley of tech 2 ammo whenever it pleases you. I don't understand what you mean by "shields have to go round your turrets." Shields in this game is really just the first layer of armour, theres no adaption around specific areas of the ship. (And yes its spelt Tech 2)
As you said its powerful, very powerful and deserves the big nerf whack of doom on it. --------------
I'm just bitter |
EternalDark
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Posted - 2006.03.14 09:01:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Nee'kita Frist Edited by: Nee''kita Frist on 14/03/2006 08:57:54
Originally by: EternalDark For me as both a Missile spamming Caldari on my main, and a laser toting amarian on my alt. I have had the opportunity to get a feel for many of the different types of Tek II ammo. The pvp raven is crazy uber with precision cruise missiles, and deadly with javelin torpedoes. The apoc and geddon are insane with gleams fitted as well; however, I would like to ask why it is necessary to unload my javelin ammunition to get my raven up over 25m/s to approach a star gate, then having to reload again before jumping in order to insure I wonĘt get caught with my pants down? ItĘs annoying after the first ten times, and its insulting after the 100th. The same goes for the Tek II crystals. Why should I have to sacrifice 70% of my shields (even when armor tanking) in order to get a negligible damage bonus?
You answered your own question at the start of that paragraph.
And no to "you should be able to decide when it cripples" you by being able to launch a volley of tech 2 ammo whenever it pleases you. I don't understand what you mean by "shields have to go round your turrets." Shields in this game is really just the first layer of armour, theres no adaption around specific areas of the ship. (And yes its spelt Tech 2)
As you said its powerful, very powerful and deserves the big nerf whack of doom on it.
The shields comment was an excerp from the Gleam beam laser crystal, I used this as an example to help others better understand how my idea would fit into the storyline, sorry for the confusion.
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Traxio Nacho
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Posted - 2006.03.14 09:07:00 -
[4]
One point back at Xmas when the PVP tournament was held the GM looking after it actually said himself that TII ammo was bugged and wasn't intended to stack, so did you guys change your minds or was this GM wrong?
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EternalDark
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Posted - 2006.03.14 09:09:00 -
[5]
I have heard various unconfirmed reports that the tek II ammo was deemed bugged, and then realising the potential unbalance of thier creation aka: precision missiles vs. frigates, the dev team decided to leave the stacking nerf in place as a bandaid fix, so they could devote time to more important things.
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MickeyFinn
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Posted - 2006.03.14 09:13:00 -
[6]
Only complaint I have is the stacking speed penalty when the ammo is in the gun. Ok, the shield penalty I can just about live with but what justifies the speed penalty? Have the penalties on the firing of the ammo (you may be able to loosely justify that with recoil etc) but why in the name of all that is holy does it penalise when travelling?
My 2 cents
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Glengrant
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Posted - 2006.03.14 09:25:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Glengrant on 14/03/2006 09:26:09 Good things come at a price. Don't wish for the I-Win Button.
These things have same build-in drawbacks. U don't have to use them. Every time u use them anyway - u prove that the advantage is still worth it.
If you don't want the speed penalty - don't load the stuff. There's T1 ammo/missiles available without an effect on speed or shield or whatever. Use that instead. Problem solved.
Oh but you absuletely have to have the most maxed damage there is to be had? Fair enough - your choice - but it comes at a price - and the price is a combination of isk and reductions - and obviously it's worth that price.
:-)
Glengrant
p.s. This is very similar to the argument that Freighters and other slow ships absolutely have to have and need and no way around it instajump bookmarks (or equivalent feature). It's beyond me why a big fat ship should be able to travel as fast and as safely as a Frigate. But there's too many threads about that already.
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Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2006.03.14 09:32:00 -
[8]
After initially hating T2 ammo, I have learnt to love it long time. If you take the time to learn how and when to use it, it can be a killer.
- Rise.
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.03.14 09:35:00 -
[9]
There must be a reason why most T2 ammo isn't selling good at all - even when being offered at mineral cost + 5% margin.
@anti-insta blabla: Ever tried to move a few hundred million Isk in minerals for running your shipyard? --*=*=*-- Megadon CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray |
Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2006.03.14 09:39:00 -
[10]
T2 ammo seems fine to me, but only if you accept that it has very specific uses.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
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DelBosco
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Posted - 2006.03.14 09:39:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Nee'kita Frist Edited by: Nee''kita Frist on 14/03/2006 08:57:54
And no to "you should be able to decide when it cripples" you by being able to launch a volley of tech 2 ammo whenever it pleases you. I don't understand what you mean by "shields have to go round your turrets." Shields in this game is really just the first layer of armour, theres no adaption around specific areas of the ship. (And yes its spelt Tech 2)
You can already effectively do this by swapping out to tech 1 ammo. _________________________________________________ When madness of the fever grips and greed is taking hold Nothing can ever cure your thirst except for rum and gold |
MickeyFinn
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Posted - 2006.03.14 11:14:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Glengrant Edited by: Glengrant on 14/03/2006 09:26:09 Good things come at a price. Don't wish for the I-Win Button.
These things have same build-in drawbacks. U don't have to use them. Every time u use them anyway - u prove that the advantage is still worth it.
If you don't want the speed penalty - don't load the stuff. There's T1 ammo/missiles available without an effect on speed or shield or whatever. Use that instead. Problem solved.
Oh but you absuletely have to have the most maxed damage there is to be had? Fair enough - your choice - but it comes at a price - and the price is a combination of isk and reductions - and obviously it's worth that price.
:-)
Glengrant
p.s. This is very similar to the argument that Freighters and other slow ships absolutely have to have and need and no way around it instajump bookmarks (or equivalent feature). It's beyond me why a big fat ship should be able to travel as fast and as safely as a Frigate. But there's too many threads about that already.
The point I am making is that the speed penalty is a penalty for penalties sake. The freighter penalty is fine, its a huge ship with a huge mass and therfore you would expect it to be sluggish and slow but where does a speed penalty fit in to ammo that is simply loaded?
I dont want an I win button, like I say I accept the penalty to shield plus the huge cost and skillpoint sink what I am after is properly structured penalties for big bonuses not just penalties that dont make any sense. Thats all I was saying.
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Nee'kita Frist
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Posted - 2006.03.14 11:24:00 -
[13]
Extra power from, shield and propulsion systems to help contain and direct the pure firepower involved with Tech2 ammo.
There done and dusted. --------------
I'm just bitter |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.03.14 11:27:00 -
[14]
Look.
The thought behind the way tech2 ammo penalties stack is reasonably simple:
Loading one gun with t2 ammo = one guns' worth of advantage = one advantage worth of penalty. Loading two guns with t2 ammo = two guns' worth...=...etc. etc.
Capiche ?
Being able to switch the penalties off and on as need dictates is not entirely logical wouldn't you agree ?
Now, were you to add a 10 second penalty to switching your guns (and thus the penalties) on and off (without it affecting grid, cap or cpu in terms of the usual fitting requirements ofc).... yeah, maybe.
But wait, that's the reloading time on guns already...
Nope, third attempt, another fail. Think of something better.
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MickeyFinn
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Posted - 2006.03.14 11:28:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Nee'kita Frist Extra power from, shield and propulsion systems to help contain and direct the pure firepower involved with Tech2 ammo.
There done and dusted.
No.
If it takes extra power from the propulsion systems to contain it then why isnt the speed penalty in play when the ammo is not loaded and just in your cargo hold.
If it takes extra power form the propulsion systems to direct the ammo then why isnt the penalty only applicable to FIRING the rounds rather than when it is merely loaded?
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.03.14 11:31:00 -
[16]
Originally by: MickeyFinn
Originally by: Nee'kita Frist Extra power from, shield and propulsion systems to help contain and direct the pure firepower involved with Tech2 ammo.
There done and dusted.
No.
If it takes extra power from the propulsion systems to contain it then why isnt the speed penalty in play when the ammo is not loaded and just in your cargo hold.
If it takes extra power form the propulsion systems to direct the ammo then why isnt the penalty only applicable to FIRING the rounds rather than when it is merely loaded?
Look, the fact that the background fiction doesn't add up 100% is no argument for or against a balancing issue solution.
Fiction serves the game, and thus it serves the balance. If balance needs changing, we change the fiction, not the other way around.
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Zolofine
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Posted - 2006.03.14 11:39:00 -
[17]
tbh i think the speed penalty on the missiles is stupid because it always applies...
The discription mentiones that it is due to the huge boost of launching missiles. Hence they should only reduce your speed when actually firing, that's my 2 cents.
Same should go for all other ammo that reduces speed. Full speed when weapons are idle, speed penalty when firing. |
Rells
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Posted - 2006.03.14 11:44:00 -
[18]
Personally I think the rediculous cost and skills needed are disadvantage enough. The gain is not stelar enough to warant more. -- Rells
◄ PvP University: Isnt it about time you learned to fight back?
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Izo Azlion
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Posted - 2006.03.14 11:44:00 -
[19]
Having never used tech 2 ammo before, am I to guess that if I load 4 x -20% Shield and Velocity ammo into my Harpy, i'll lose a large amount of both, through the stacking penalty?
Thats rediculous. That turns a quickish tankable Harpy into a slow unsustainable Frigate.
Especially if its a constant effect.
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MickeyFinn
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Posted - 2006.03.14 11:44:00 -
[20]
No offence Rob but that sounds like an excuse to justify an overly zealous penalty. You could apply that logic to anything, the argument is "is the penalty imposed reasonable and comparative to the bonuses gained?"
For example, drones on a moros are very powerful because of the big bonus. Therefore would it be fair to say that the moros should have a 100% speed penalty upon launching them? In my opinion that would be unreasonable and that is the same for speed penalties with tech 2 ammo.
...Again, there should be penalties for big advantages but surely they have to be reasonable?
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.03.14 11:51:00 -
[21]
Originally by: MickeyFinn No offence Rob but that sounds like an excuse to justify an overly zealous penalty. You could apply that logic to anything, the argument is "is the penalty imposed reasonable and comparative to the bonuses gained?"
For example, drones on a moros are very powerful because of the big bonus. Therefore would it be fair to say that the moros should have a 100% speed penalty upon launching them? In my opinion that would be unreasonable and that is the same for speed penalties with tech 2 ammo.
...Again, there should be penalties for big advantages but surely they have to be reasonable?
Ah, but the argument here was that the stacking of the penalties should no exist.
What I said was that it should, since it makes sense. I also said the removing them on want of the player without an extra penalty essentially removes the penalty itself, thus rendering ti useless and imbalancing the situation.
Now, what you are now saying is that the penalties themselves aren't right. That's another story, and one that I could agree with in some cases.
However, they should stack, and continue to do so.
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Nifel
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Posted - 2006.03.14 11:54:00 -
[22]
Considering Tech 2 ammo is unbalanced something extreme I have no problem whatsoever with the stacking penalties. Ships with Tech 2 ammo is uber enough as it is anyway.
"We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago." RKK Ranking: (MIN13) Jata |
MickeyFinn
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Posted - 2006.03.14 11:57:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Originally by: MickeyFinn No offence Rob but that sounds like an excuse to justify an overly zealous penalty. You could apply that logic to anything, the argument is "is the penalty imposed reasonable and comparative to the bonuses gained?"
For example, drones on a moros are very powerful because of the big bonus. Therefore would it be fair to say that the moros should have a 100% speed penalty upon launching them? In my opinion that would be unreasonable and that is the same for speed penalties with tech 2 ammo.
...Again, there should be penalties for big advantages but surely they have to be reasonable?
Ah, but the argument here was that the stacking of the penalties should no exist.
What I said was that it should, since it makes sense. I also said the removing them on want of the player without an extra penalty essentially removes the penalty itself, thus rendering ti useless and imbalancing the situation.
Now, what you are now saying is that the penalties themselves aren't right. That's another story, and one that I could agree with in some cases.
However, they should stack, and continue to do so.
Yer, i kinda moved the argument from the OP to mine inadvertantly - stacking is not my gripe but the fact that the penalty is there in the first place as per my first post on the subject :p
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BurnHard
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Posted - 2006.03.14 11:58:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Tachy There must be a reason why most T2 ammo isn't selling good at all - even when being offered at mineral cost + 5% margin.
We had a big discussion about this. My ammo sells out at cost + 394% margin (almost exactly). People who are having trouble shipping it in volume either didn't research their BPO at all, or are trying to sell at cost + 700% margin - I tried this too, didn't sell but like I say, thats a whole other discussion .
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Bellac
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Posted - 2006.03.14 12:05:00 -
[25]
I have no problem with the basic ideas behind tech2 ammo and the sort of related downsides, but i think the implimentation is a bit harsh.
Fit 8xMega beam 2 with gleam to an apoc (I have not tried more than 5 myself and its DT) and the sheild would be gone before you start. By my rough calcs, which may be wrong, an apoc set up like this would loose about 5750 points or sheild before you even fire a turret. A not inconsiderable amount. This bonus makes such a set up almost imposible to impliment.
OK the apoc is an armour tank, but do caldari ships have a similar bonus to reduce armour?? In my oppinion the hybrid tech 2 gets off very lightly with range and fall off, or range and tracking nerfs.
Pulse dont escape an overly keen nerf either. If you fit pulse 2 to your ship, not only will you get reduced range with tech 2 crystals but at the reduced range you get reduced tracking too (-25% and -50%). This makes it almost imposible to hit smaller targets than yourself with tech 2 ammo.
Tech 2 missiles dont seem too scary to use either to be honest. OK high damage missiles use cap, but you are given a 1.45 cap charge booster for using them. and the only problem with high precision is that they have a 30% speed nerf.
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Arkanor
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Posted - 2006.03.14 12:06:00 -
[26]
I don't think they're asking for a winbutton, they're asking for something that behaves like a hislot item.
Lowslot items don't need to be activated (usually) Medslot items are a mix Name one hislot item that does not need activation to obtain an effect. There is no sense really in being penalized for something that takes effect when firing a gun if you're not firing that gun. T-II ammo is blisteringly expensive as it is.
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MickeyFinn
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Posted - 2006.03.14 12:09:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Arkanor I don't think they're asking for a winbutton, they're asking for something that behaves like a hislot item.
Lowslot items don't need to be activated (usually) Medslot items are a mix Name one hislot item that does not need activation to obtain an effect. There is no sense really in being penalized for something that takes effect when firing a gun if you're not firing that gun. T-II ammo is blisteringly expensive as it is.
Drone augmentor........but your first sentance is spot on. ;)
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MissileRus
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Posted - 2006.03.14 12:47:00 -
[28]
Originally by: EternalDark I have heard various unconfirmed reports that the tek II ammo was deemed bugged, and then realising the potential unbalance of thier creation aka: precision missiles vs. frigates, the dev team decided to leave the stacking nerf in place as a bandaid fix, so they could devote time to more important things.
that would probably be true, because my idea from the devs is that theres to mutch damage everywhere they want more combat and less gank, it might be un-nerfed when/if they manage to get the "Ship Sub-system Targetting" in for longer fights, however its still in drawing board. they added new armor skills for longer fights but T2 ammo shortened them back down again lol. anyway my thoughts from the devs are that they want longer fights(in a sence) and T2 ammo is a bit to powerfull, or something like that..
--------------------------- 4. i like pizza |
Shinoobie
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Posted - 2006.03.14 13:43:00 -
[29]
Compare tech II ammo with tech II mods.
Tech II Mods - They are better than the tech I counter parts, with a few more skills and fitting requirements.
Tech II Ammo - They are better than the tech I counter parts, with FAR more skills, BIG stacking penalties.
Answer :
You need tech II guns to use the ammo right, then lets add the specialisation skill to the ammo itself.....
Take GLEAM S as an example.....
Quote: The Gleam overdrive crystal has tremendous damage capacity but needs substantially more energy than normal and its energy singnature is very easy to lock onto. It also requires the ship's shields to be strengthened around the turret to prevent critical backlashes.
Can only be used by small tech level II+ Beam Lasers
Small Beam Laser Specialization : 10% reduction to shield and sig radius penalty per skill level.
Good idea or no? Just an idea :) http://img208.exs.cx/img208/1889/siggy9ox.jpg Shuttles
Maximum signture image dimensions are 400x120 - Udat |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.03.14 13:52:00 -
[30]
T2 amo is plain stupid.
Faction amo does damage, t2 amo should do secondary effects, and add faction missiles.
Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command |
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