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Lord WarATron
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Posted - 2006.03.14 11:07:00 -
[1]
Having seen HUNDREDS of these posts, this post is to answer this situation once and for all.
Firstly, Everone who want to train any of the advanced learning to lvl5 will have Learning to lvl5. Fair Assumption.
Now there are four reasons why people train these skills.
1. Faster Skill Training
2. Boasting about SP/Skill Totals etc
3. Perception of new skills of any sort and wanting a head start on them
4. Nothing Better to train.
I will not talk about the the above 4 options, since they are all equally valid baised on the person training them.
What I will say is this is the reality.
SP = Primary + Half Secondary.
For each attribute to advanced lvl5, you get 1440 SP extra a day, which is 525,600 SP's a year, or 578,160sp's a year with learning 5 (1584sp a day).
The Break even point is 632,235 SP, which is how many SP's you need to train to get Adv lvl5.
Each point of Primary is in real terms (((1.1 SP a minute)x2)/3). This is because the game calculates SP as Primary + Half Secondary. (and the 1.1 is just the effect of learning 5)
So the real formula is (((578,160sp's )x2)/3) = 385,440 sp if attribute is primary
or 192,720sp if Attribute is secondary.
So to hit Break even is 632,235 SP, and you train a maximum of an extra
Primary -> 1056 SP per day
Secondary -> 528 SP per day
Which is 598 days Per attribute, if training primary skills
Or 1197 days Per attribute if training secondary skills.
Or Someware inbetween if training both.
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MegabitOne
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Posted - 2006.03.14 11:29:00 -
[2]
I might be missing the point here, but don't you have to take into account the character's initial attributes? If some character starts out with 10 memory or 5 memory, it will make a big difference on the time needed.
First btw 
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Lord WarATron
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Posted - 2006.03.14 11:30:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 14/03/2006 11:30:32
Originally by: MegabitOne
I might be missing the point here, but don't you have to take into account the character's initial attributes? If some character starts out with 10 memory or 5 memory, it will make a big difference on the time needed.
First btw
Initial attributes dont matter. What I am calculating is the break even time for going from adv lvl4 to 5, not the total SP over time. :)
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.14 11:42:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 14/03/2006 11:43:19
Nevermind, that does look right.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2006.03.14 13:05:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Pottsey on 14/03/2006 13:08:08
tSo to hit Break even is 632,235 SP, and you train a maximum of an extra
Primary -> 1056 SP per day
Secondary -> 528 SP per day
Which is 598 days Per attribute, if training primary skills
Or 1197 days Per attribute if training secondary skills.
Or Someware inbetween if training both.v
Your wrong or should that be I dont agree how break even works. As you didnFt factor in new skills. It took me 3 months to have more useful Charisma skill points from adv 5 then not having adv5. Not 1 year or longer. As after 3 months I had more useful Charisma skill points then if I didnFt train adv5 then payback for me was 3 months or roughly 90 days.
The break even/payback point to me is when having adv5 gives me more useful skills then if I had adv4 and thatFs 90days ish for me.
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Lord WarATron
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Posted - 2006.03.14 13:08:00 -
[6]
Well, the irony is that we now know that it takes 598 days per attribute, I do not have the patience to work out the break even for training all skills to lvl5 (since the primary and secondary would count for each other).
Anyhow, you are looking at roughly 800 days times 5 attributes = 4000 days to break even all stats if your train all to adv lvl5!!!!
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Lord WarATron
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Posted - 2006.03.14 13:10:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 14/03/2006 13:10:22
Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 14/03/2006 13:08:08
tSo to hit Break even is 632,235 SP, and you train a maximum of an extra
Primary -> 1056 SP per day
Secondary -> 528 SP per day
Which is 598 days Per attribute, if training primary skills
Or 1197 days Per attribute if training secondary skills.
Or Someware inbetween if training both.v
Your wrong or should that be I dont agree how break even works. As you didnFt factor in new skills. It took me 3 months to have more useful Charisma skill points from adv 5 then not having adv5. Not 1 year or longer. As after 3 months I had more useful Charisma skill points then if I didnFt train adv5 then payback for me was 3 months or roughly 90 days.
The break even/payback point to me is when having adv5 gives me more useful skills then if I had adv4 and thatFs 90days ish for me.
Heh, we always have this discussion. Perhaps my maths is wrong. Please do tell me how you broke even in 90 days, which is roughly 90k extra SP over not training advlvl5 at all?
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2006.03.14 13:26:00 -
[8]
tPerhaps my maths is wrong. Please do tell me how you broke even in 90 days, which is roughly 150k extra SP over not training advlvl5 at all?v
At a glance your math is fine. I am ment to be in a lesson now so got to rush this post.
I donFt agree what break even is as I think you should factor in new skills. I used to argue about adv5 a lot everyone told me itFs a waste and takes years to pay back but this is what can and does happened.
Person A trains charisma adv5 as he has all the skills he needs.
Person B trains charisma adv 4 then trains 1 other skill to lvl 5.
New skills come out that need charisma like gang assist, advanced leadership
Pearson A with adv5 finishes all the new skills in 90 days and Person B with adv 4 after 90days still has a bit to go. Giving the person with adv5 150k sp over having adv4 or something along those lines.
So if the ad5 is in the lead after 90days payback/breakeven is 90days.
If you cannot train the skill before getting adv5 then the breakeven point for adv5 is instant or less then 1 day once you train new skills that came out after you get adv5.
Now if you donFt and never will train new skills I agree with our post that breakeven is over 1 year.
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Lord WarATron
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Posted - 2006.03.14 13:41:00 -
[9]
However this falls under my first post as to a valid reason why someone would want to train this -
3. Perception of new skills of any sort and wanting a head start on them
Anyhow, after 90 days, you are 632,235 SP down from the person who did not train it and are going to catchup at a rate of 1056 SP's a day assuming you are training primary skills. After 598 days, you have caught up and on day 599, you are ahead.
Like I said in the top post, there are valid reasons to train this. If you dont fall under the valid reason, then its a waste.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2006.03.14 15:55:00 -
[10]
tAnyhow, after 90 days, you are 632,235 SP down from the person who did not train it and are going to catchup at a rate of 1056 SP's a day assuming you are training primary skills. After 598 days, you have caught up and on day 599, you are ahead.v
Sorry somehow I didnFt see rule 3, to much rushing on my dinner break I guess.
I still donFt see it as down 632,235 as from a new skill point of view I am not down 632,235 sp but right from day one I am ahead by by xxx amount of SP. After 90days I have had 90days of being ahead and pulling ahead more.
The guy with adv4 not only has less total skill points but he also has less useful skill points. So how can you say break even is 599 days when you have more useful and more total skill points after 90days?
My problem is someone in game asks if adv5 is worth it and most people say no it takes 599days to break even. Which is just not true for eveyone, from a useful skill point of view.
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Lord WarATron
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Posted - 2006.03.14 16:02:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 14/03/2006 16:07:22
Originally by: Pottsey
tAnyhow, after 90 days, you are 632,235 SP down from the person who did not train it and are going to catchup at a rate of 1056 SP's a day assuming you are training primary skills. After 598 days, you have caught up and on day 599, you are ahead.v
Sorry somehow I didnFt see rule 3, to much rushing on my dinner break I guess.
I still donFt see it as down 632,235 as from a new skill point of view I am not down 632,235 sp but right from day one I am ahead by by xxx amount of SP. After 90days I have had 90days of being ahead and pulling ahead more.
The guy with adv4 not only has less total skill points but he also has less useful skill points. So how can you say break even is 599 days when you have more useful and more total skill points after 90days?
My problem is someone in game asks if adv5 is worth it and most people say no it takes 599days to break even. Which is just not true for eveyone, from a useful skill point of view.
Right. Lets make a skill called Omgwtfbbqpwnagelolnoob.
To get this skill to lvl 1, it takes 598 days.
You have 2 people. Both with Advanced lvl4
The first guy trains advanced lvl5 then trains the omgwtfbbqpwnagelolnoob skill.
The second guy says, to heck with it, and trains the omgwtfbbqpwnagelolnoob skills straight off.
598 days later, They both have the skill done.
This is called Break even.
Here is a more realistic example.
Two players train skills. Both are at lvl4 advanced.
The first player decides to get advanced lvl5 on all stats. The second player says screw this and proceeds training useful skills. Assuming they train all attributes equally, then until roughly day 4000, the second player will have more skills.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2006.03.14 17:56:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Pottsey on 14/03/2006 18:03:33
vTwo players train skills. Both are at lvl4 advanced.
The first player decides to get advanced lvl5 on all stats. The second player says screw this and proceeds training useful skills. Assuming they train all attributes equally, then until roughly day 4000 (break even point if you work out all skills), the second player will have more skills.vv
But thatFs not what happened to me or in my example. Its more of a case of I maxed out my weapons system, defence, mining, power grid, cap skills e.c.t all to level 5 had nothing left to train that was useful. I couldnFt take the position of the adv4 guy as the skills I wanted/needed to train where not out. I could waste my time and train useless skills I didnFt plan to use but instead I got adv5.
In my case it went more like this. The first guy maxed all useful current skills and has nothing useful left to train but likeFs the sound of the new stuff thatFs coming out soon so person 1 trains adv5.
Guy 2 also has maxed out his current useful skills instead of planning ahead he wastes 15days training 600k in turrets just to see what they are like before deciding he doesnFt like them
Later on a new profession comes out with a new ship (gang assist). Both players decide they want to train for this new profession + ship. Now guy 2 didnFt have the option of training the skills as they where not out so both start at the same time.
(Using my character as a template)
Both the adv4 and adv5 guys start training at the same time for
Armored Warfare Specialist 5
Siege Warfare Specialist 5
Squadron Command 5
Mining Director 4
Mining Foreman 4
Command Ships 3
99 days 15 hours later guy 1 with adv5 has finished and has decided to move on to capital ships to fly a carrier another new skill. While guy2 with adv4 is still training for the above skills. By the time guy 2 with adv4 has got to start capital ships and completed the above training, guy 1 with adv5 is already 5 days 1 hour into learning capital ships.
In that case adv5 has broken even in 99days as you have more useful skills after 99days then if you had adv4. The process keeps going on as the adv5 and adv4 guys keep training skills that came out after the first person got adv5. This means not only is the adv5 already broken even after 99days but he keeps pulling ahead with new skills.
Instead of wasting 12days 21hours learning a useless skill I didnFt need I learnt adv5 charisma then all those new charisma skills came out and I learnt them. If what you said is correct then I would have been better off not learning adv5 but that would put me in a worse position.
Since getting adv5 I have learnt around 80skills that I couldnFt learn before I had adv5 and more are bound to come out.
When working out payback for adv5 you have to take into account you can finish new skills faster then move onto the 2nd lot of new skills all before the adv4 guy has trained the first lot of new skills.
Another real life example I finished training for gang assist while the adv4 version of me would still be learning gang assist. A bunch of new drones came out and being a drone pilot who had maxed drones skills out pre adv5 I went and started to learn the drones. By the time I have learnt the new drones skills I will be starting on the new tanking skills all the time the adv4 copy of me is falling more and more behind in useful skills. 200days later and the adv5 version of me has a lot of usefull skill points that the adv4 person does not have.
If I listened to people like you who say payback is 4000 days I wouldnFt have had adv 5 and I would have leant 80 to 100 skills that came out after I got adv5 a lot slower then I did learn them.
Training those 80 to 100 skills with adv5 is a lot better then learning them with adv4.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.14 18:21:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 14/03/2006 18:21:03
Originally by: Pottsey
If I listened to people like you who say payback is 4000 days I wouldnFt have had adv 5 and I would have leant 80 to 100 skills that came out after I got adv5 a lot slower then I did learn them.
Training those 80 to 100 skills with adv5 is a lot better then learning them with adv4.
You have a weird definition of "a lot."
"A lot slower" for me is 20-30% slower, not 3% slower.
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Cabre
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Posted - 2006.03.14 18:25:00 -
[14]
Very informative post, thanks. The point of it is, don't bother training advanced5 unless you're going to spend 1.5 years training skills in that as a primary attribute.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2006.03.14 19:17:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Pottsey on 14/03/2006 19:19:00
tYou have a weird definition of "a lot."
"A lot slower" for me is 20-30% slower, not 3% slower.v
I am well over 1 month ahead in usefull skill training then if I had adv4. Spending over 1 month training skills that I would not be able to train if I had adv4 is a lot by my definition. It could be a lot longer then 1 month but I got bored adding up saved time on usefull skills after I hit 30days.
vThe point of it is, don't bother training advanced5 unless you're going to spend 1.5 years training skills in that as a primary attribute.v
That might be the point of his post but itFs not true. You can get advanced 5 and break even in 99days which is a lot less then 1.5 years. The 1.5years break even rule only applys to some pilots not all of them. Breakeven can be anywhere from 1 day to 1 year+ depending on what skills you learn.
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Rodge
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Posted - 2006.03.14 20:42:00 -
[16]
Pottsey, I've read your posts here and on previous posts on this topic.
You really just don't get the maths involved.
In no way am I saying that getting presence to level 5 wasn't the right thing for you, but your comprehension of the break even point at 99 days is way way off.
WarATron explains it well here:
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Right. Lets make a skill called Omgwtfbbqpwnagelolnoob.
To get this skill to lvl 1, it takes 598 days.
You have 2 people. Both with Advanced lvl4
The first guy trains advanced lvl5 then trains the omgwtfbbqpwnagelolnoob skill.
The second guy says, to heck with it, and trains the omgwtfbbqpwnagelolnoob skills straight off.
598 days later, They both have the skill done.
This is called Break even.
It's an extreme example, but illustrates the point perfectly.
Both players have identical stats, identical skillpoints.
For every second of those first 597 days, player 2 will have more skillpoints in that skill. Player 1 will have more skillpoints overall though.
On the 598th day, both players will have exactly the same amount of skillpoints in that skill. But player 1 will have 1 point more in charisma, and more total skillpoints.
After this, player 1 will be in profit on skillpoints in a char skill.
Lets demonstrate the maths, if you don't believe me.
Say it takes you 15 days to get presence from 4 to 5 (the exact time doesn't matter).
Player 1 and 2 both have 20 in the primary/secondary attribute for the skill.
After 15 days, player 1 gets his +1 char. He now has 0 points in Omgwtfbbqpwnagelolnoob
Player 2 has spent 15 days gaining 30 SPs/minute = 43,200 SPs/day. 15 days = 648,000
Now, Player 1 gains at 31SPs/minute = 44,640/day, Player 2 at 30SP/minute = 43,200/day
By your maths, you break even after 99 days. Lets take 99 days after the initial.
So Player 2 will have 99x43,200SPs = 4,276,800SPs in Omgwtfbbqpwnagelolnoob
Player 1 will have 84x44,640SPs = 3,749,760SPs in Omgwtfbbqpwnagelolnoob
Lets look at 200 days after both started to look at getting our fictional skill
Player 1 will have 185x44,640 = 8,258,400SPs
Player 2 will have 200x43,200 = 8,640,000SPs
Remember, each time we calculate, player 1 has spent 15 days getting presence from 4 to 5.
400 days later
Player 1 will have 385x44,640 = 17,186,400SPs
Player 2 will have 400x43,200 = 17,280,000SPs
You see, every day of the 400 days we've looked at so far, Player 2 has had more skillpoints in the fictional leadership skills.
Of course, player 1 is gaining on him. And he has more total skillpoints. But player 2 has more leadership skillpoints. After 400 days, player 1 still hasn't caught up with Player 2 in terms of leadership skills.
Once again, I'll reiterate. I'm not saying level 5 in advanced learnings are a bad idea in any way. I personally have at least 2 to level 5 on all 3 of my high skillpoint characters and my new Achura character will be taking a few to level 5 too. But it takes more than your 99 day calculation for them to payoff or break even.
Phew.... 
[ 2005.04.17 00:34:30 ] Nagilam > u better leave Rodge, u will not gank any1 else 2nite......
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Lord WarATron
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Posted - 2006.03.14 20:54:00 -
[17]
What is being forgotten here, is that in the first post, I said the only valid reasons for training adv.lvl5 is
1. Faster Skill Training
2. Boasting about SP/Skill Totals etc
3. Perception of new skills of any sort and wanting a head start on them
4. Nothing Better to train.
But to claim the maths is wrong, needs mathimatical proof :)
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2006.03.14 21:49:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Pottsey on 14/03/2006 21:51:10
tPottsey, I've read your posts here and on previous posts on this topic.
You really just don't get the maths involved.
In no way am I saying that getting presence to level 5 wasn't the right thing for you, but your comprehension of the break even point at 99 days is way way off.v
I fully get the maths and understand it all. I donFt disagree with the math. ItFs the definition of breakeven that I disagree with and the way the math is used. The math its self is correct I just want to point out that after 90days the adv5 guy has more leadership skill points then the adv4 guy so adv5 paid its self back. The maths show the adv5 guy has more leaderships skill points after 90days so how can you say it takes longer then 90days for adv5 to pay its self back?
tFor every second of those first 597 days, player 2 will have more skillpoints in that skill. Player 1 will have more skillpoints overall though.v
Now look at it from my point of view. You already have all the skills you need. Now this new 597 days skill comes out after you get adv5. That means both me and the adv4 version of me start training that 598day skill at the same time. Only the adv5 version finishFs roughly 28days before the adv4 guy and moves onto another new skill. By the time adv4 has started the 2nd new skill the adv5 guy could already be on his 3rd or 4th new skill. In that case I say adv5 paid its self back as I have far more useful skills then the adv4 guy right from the 1st second I start training the new skill.
tYou see, every day of the 400 days we've looked at so far, Player 2 has had more skillpoints in the fictional leadership skills.v
No I donFt see it. You made one very big flaw. The 6 leadership skills I was basing my posts on came out after I got adv5. That means the adv4 version of me could not train those skills while I was training for adv5 and there where no other useful skill to learn. As both the adv4 and adv5 guy start training for these 6 skills at the same time player 1 with adv5 has more useful leadership skill points over player 2 with adv4.
So the adv5 guy has more leadership skill points then the adv4 person. That means adv5 payed its self back fast. If what you said was true the adv4 guy would have more leadership skill points but the maths say adv4 guy has less leadership skillpoints and less total skill points.
You have to factor in that the adv4 guy cannot learn the skills while the other guy is learning adv5 as the skills are not out until adv5 is done or after its done.
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Lord WarATron
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Posted - 2006.03.14 22:04:00 -
[19]
Pottsey,
2 players with adv.lvl4
First players put a skill training queue that takes 597 days
Second player puts a skill training queue that takes 597 days
Both players train the same skills, except the second player trains adv.lvl5 first Now the only diffrence is that the second player starts off as the length of time it takes to train adv4->5 and slowly catches up over the time period.
On day 597, the second player is still behind, since the break even is day 598. Do you see this?
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2006.03.14 22:25:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Pottsey on 14/03/2006 22:27:16
tFirst players put a skill training queue that takes 597 days
Second player puts a skill training queue that takes 597 days
Both players train the same skills, except the second player trains adv.lvl5 first Now the only diffrence is that the second player starts off as the length of time it takes to train adv4->5 and slowly catches up over the time period.
On day 597, the second player is still behind, since the break even is day 598. Do you see this?v
Yes I do see that, but thatFs now how it always works in game, though I do agree it works like that sometimes. What often happens is like my example. Both the adv4 and adv5 guy max out leadership. Adv4 goes and trains 1 none leadership skill while adv5 guy gets adv5. New leadership skills come out and both the adv4 and adv5 start the training queue that takes 597 days at the same time. There is no delay putting adv4 ahead of adv5, while adv5 is being learnt as the adv5 was got before the training could be started.
We end up with two leadership pilots the adv5 guy having more leadership skill points then the adv4 guy. So adv5 paid its self back and is over 28days ahead of the adv4 guy not behind like in your example.
If the training queues are started at the same time, as the skills came out after you got adv5 then the payback is very different from if you train skills that came out before you got adv5. Your assuming the adv4 guy training queue is always going to be able to train those skills while the other player gets adv5. But sometimes the case is adv4 cannot start training those skills until after adv5 has been got by the other player. Basically there are two ways to work out payback depending on which skills you train.
When training skills that came out after getting adv5 you do payback my way. When training skills that came out before you got adv5 you do it your way.
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Jann Kilik
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Posted - 2006.03.14 22:27:00 -
[21]
For a comparison to be valid, you have to have a common reference point. Trying to compare two cases where the starting conditions are different is like comparing apples to oranges. This seems to be the root of your disagreement with Lord WarATron's analysis, Pottsey.
In your case, you are comparing player A (with adv5) to player B (with adv4 plus additional SP). It is immediately obvious that player A will gain leadership SP faster because his attributes are higher. However, the perception of who is 'ahead' is dependent on what skills those additional SP are in and hence make this comparison highly subjective.
To make a truly objective assessment as to which path is better to take, you need to have both players at the same starting point, hence Lord WarATron's example with both players starting with adv4.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2006.03.14 22:42:00 -
[22]
tTo make a truly objective assessment as to which path is better to take, you need to have both players at the same starting point, hence Lord WarATron's example with both players starting with adv4.v
The problem with both players at the same starting point is itFs not useful and has little to do with the game, it just doesnFt always work like that. When someone asks is adv5 worth it you need to explain both points. My point on training new skills and Lord WarATron's point. To many people only use Lord WarATron's point not realising the amount of time they could save.
Skill training and payback is highly subjective. You cannot simplify it down to objective skills all starting at the same time, my 6 leadership skills are a perfect example of how the same starting point and payback arguments full down. If Eve was static and no stuff was not added I would fully agree with you all. But Eve is dynamic and new stuff is added regularly and that has to be factored in when working out adv5 payback.
Due to all the new skills added its not fair to have both the adv5 and adv4 guys start there skill training at the same time with adv5 having to learn adv5 while adv4 learns the other skils. In reality in works like my leadership example. Both players max out an area with none advnaced skills being out. The advanced skills in that area come out giving the adv5 guy the advantage and faster payback.
Eveything a new T2 item comes out that needs new skills the adv5 has the advantage. That has to be factored into payback for learning adv5.
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Walker Greywolf
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Posted - 2006.03.14 22:53:00 -
[23]
What I'm seeing is two different definitions of "pay back" and I think both are correct.
From a purely "skill point cost", it does take four hundred and something days before the cost of learning an advanced learning from 4 to 5.
However, there is also a benifit from being able to learn new skills faster than someone else right out of the gate after the skill is released.
Two different payoffs. both valid points.
In your service
Walker Greywolf.
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Antares Lee
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Posted - 2006.03.14 23:11:00 -
[24]
The point here is, for which player is the analysis of "mathematical break even" made? It's not the "skilled out" veteran, who can't find any useful skills for his career path anymore, it's clear that in this situation you will bring your advanced learning skills up to max in anticipation of new skills. This is you, Pottsey, and you fall under the exceptions WarATron made. The analysis is made for the noobs like me who have just suffered through to adv. learning 4, with more than enough useful skills to learn, who ask themselves, should I bring them up to 5 right now, will it gimp my progression if I don't?
And here the answer is clearly no, learn the useful skills first, come back in half a year and if you don't find anything pressing to learn then, maybe fit an adv. learning 5 in between.
just my 2c
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Dagam
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Posted - 2006.03.15 00:10:00 -
[25]
Let's put it this way for Pottsey. You are looking to train advanced perception from 4 to 5, which will generate 1056 extra SP per day IF and only if you train skills with perception as primary. You need to spend 632,235 SP to train adv perception from 4 to 5. Therefore, it will take 632,235/1,056 or 598 days for it to pay off if you only train skills with perception as primary. Payoff is 1.63 years optimal, more than that if you do not train perception-based skills.
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Deileon
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Posted - 2006.03.15 00:20:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Deileon on 15/03/2006 00:23:05
To OP: Your numbers are completely wrong. The "final word" has been put down already, by me as well as many others whose numbers are correct. Problem is, some people still don't listen.
Just looked at the whole thread, it's actually amazing since every single conclusion in the thread is completely wrong. That's an impressive feat. Kudos.
They say bananas are a dish best served cold... |
Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.03.15 00:51:00 -
[27]
Pottsey, that's not breakeven. Breakeven is when you gain the skill points spent training the advanced learning V skill back, which will take nearly 600 days if you're training only skills with a primary attribute of the advanced skill you chose.
When new charisma skills are released and you have a higher charisma stat than their neighbour, it doesn't mean that you'br broken even if you finish training before him. All finishing first means is that you beat someone to completion of the new skills. By your analogy, if you both start training the same skill at the same time, you've already broken even after one day because you're beating him by a handful of SP. That's not breaking even. It is, however, an advantage if you would rather get the skills before anyone else for some reason Perhaps if new archeology skills are released along with new applications. You could make a lot of isk training that first and gaining access to the new things that come with it a few days before anyone else but it is NOT breaking even.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Deileon
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Posted - 2006.03.15 01:38:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Nyphur
People might listen more if instead of screaming that everyone is wrong, you actually backed yourself up and told them why.
Hmm, well I gave the exact equation for breakeven time, which I have given at least twice in previous threads. So I think that qualifies as backing myself up. As for "screaming" which is more like condescending exasperation, after explaining this about 10 times now, it's hard to really expect anything else. I just have to learn how to allow people to be wrong.
They say bananas are a dish best served cold... |
Nyphur
|
Posted - 2006.03.15 02:05:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Deileon
Originally by: Nyphur
People might listen more if instead of screaming that everyone is wrong, you actually backed yourself up and told them why.
Hmm, well I gave the exact equation for breakeven time, which I have given at least twice in previous threads. So I think that qualifies as backing myself up. As for "screaming" which is more like condescending exasperation, after explaining this about 10 times now, it's hard to really expect anything else. I just have to learn how to allow people to be wrong.
You're working on time, the original poster is working on skillpoints. The two are incomparable without running it on a bunch of test cases. Tell me why the original post is wrong in its calculations and I'll drop this here. I don't think you can.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Deileon
|
Posted - 2006.03.15 03:27:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Nyphur
You're working on time, the original poster is working on skillpoints. The two are incomparable without running it on a bunch of test cases. Tell me why the original post is wrong in its calculations and I'll drop this here. I don't think you can.
You see, you're only allowed to be condescending when you're RIGHT. Try to remember that. Yes I work in time rather than SP, because I like to know "when the hell is this learning going to pay off" rather than SP totals. And since I have spent time to condense the whole thing into one equation, it isn't necessary to work with SP. Regardless of the method used, at the end of the day any correct method will produce identical results. This is a mathematical breakeven, there is no room for feelings or perceptions, there is a correct answer and then there are all the others. So, let's look at the OP:
Originally by: Lord WarATron
SP = Primary + Half Secondary.
I think he means SP/minute = Primary + Half Secondary, which would be correct.
Originally by: Lord WarATron
For each attribute to advanced lvl5, you get 1440 SP extra a day, which is 525,600 SP's a year, or 578,160sp's a year with learning 5 (1584sp a day).
Yes, for the primary attribute. Note how you must factor in learning level directly (my method doesn't require it, that's all contained in the train time of the learning(s) in question.) Anyway, he's on track this far.
Originally by: Lord WarATron
The Break even point is 632,235 SP, which is how many SP's you need to train to get Adv lvl5.
From our ADDED SP/min, we need to accumulate 632,235 SP from that alone, then we have reached mathematical breakeven. This is correct.
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Each point of Primary is in real terms (((1.1 SP a minute)x2)/3). This is because the game calculates SP as Primary + Half Secondary. (and the 1.1 is just the effect of learning 5) So the real formula is (((578,160sp's )x2)/3) = 385,440 sp if attribute is primary or 192,720sp if Attribute is secondary.
Here's where it all went wrong. For some reason he tried reapplying the same "2/3 effect of the primary." But we already HAVE the equation for SP based on the attributes. We established that +1.1 to the primary attribute gives an extra 1584 SP/day. Nothing remains but to do the simple division, the units can be your guide:
(632,235 SP) / (1584 SP/day) = 399.138 days.
However, we aren't finished. Remember, this is the time that we have spent WITH the raised attribute. We also have to add the time we spent training the learning in the first place. Usually on the order of 12-15 days, depending on your attributes. For me, Eidetic Memory 5 would take 12.095 days. So my total breakeven for Eidetic 5 would be 399.138 + 12.095 = 411.233 days. Contrast this with my equation:
[12.095 days] / [1 - (24.2 / 24.93333)] = 411.23 days.
Same result, give or take rounding error. I think I like the SP/hybrid method better in fact. It isn't as elegant in form, and makes assumptions based on Learning level, but it is less affected by rounding errors and easier to use (though that doesn't mean people get it right...)
To credit the OP, I see now that you ALMOST had it. But almost just isn't good enough when you reach the wrong result. Especially when your thread topic criticizes all the work that has come before.
They say bananas are a dish best served cold... |
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