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Duke Wendo
Probe Patrol Polarized.
0
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Posted - 2014.01.01 10:56:00 -
[1] - Quote
I wanted to start a thread to discuss some good ideas that would make w-space ( and perhaps null) more interactive in terms of pvp. At the moment, all I see in w-space is fights for fights sake or catching people running pve sites. The combat can be fun for a while but then if people don't want to fight- they don't have to. I've been in fleets that have rage- rolled for hours on end and found nothing but a pve drake or a couple of slippery ventures harvesting gas. I seek challenging fights to learn to be a better pilot.
Here are some of the ones I was thinking about-
- Wormholes (and null regions) from c1-c6 should fluctuate in terms of value. PI, asteroid belts, moons and combat sites should increase in value in unoccupied / low population systems and decrease in value as population rises/ belts are mined and sites are cleared.
This would mean you could settle down in a region/ w-space system but your ISK income would steadily decline or you could move around and fight over the more valuable regions, which would steadily decline or you could split up into smaller groups and have your system/ region provide ISK at a steady rate
Upgrading the system would help but those upgrades would not be as good as moving to an unpopulated area where there is a great build up of pirate sites, asteroids, moon minerals and PI.
It would make sense in terms of NPC pirates gathering their strength in areas away from active pod pilots and resources being depleted on a planet/ moon/ belt.
- System 'upgrades' like a station or a POS should be minimal in terms of defense.
There should be enough storage for ships/ modules but anything else in terms of manufacturing/ research, system upgrades, local chat channel broadcasts, moon mining, PI, etc, etc should be on the outside of the shields/ station and be vulnerable to attack.
You would have to defend these structures from attackers. They would be balanced in terms of hit points- maybe with a short reinforce timer but the point is they could be attacked with small- medium gangs and you would have to actively defend your stuff. Thinking in terms of the new mobile deployable structures.
Also I think CCP should re-think how an alliance/ corp 'claims' a null system to be more streamlined- without the massive structure grinds to make the regions more 'fluid' instead of a large group settling in and making it almost impossible to make any impact in an area.
What other ideas do you guys have to create more conflict between groups of players? |
Jack Miton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
2850
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Posted - 2014.01.01 12:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
The only conflict driver you need is the desire to shoot someone in the face. WH space doesnt need more 'conflict drivers' as you put it. what is a conflict driver anyway? to me it's just a term that's been thrown around lately by the few large WH groups who are looking for a justification to keep using their 30+ man T3 blobs while the rest of WH space has moved on.
Quote:I seek challenging fights to learn to be a better pilot. this is your problem, not a problem with WH space. the best way to learn to be a better pilot is to fly solo and in small gangs and this can be done easily by anyone who cares to.
The rest of your post talks about PVE and nullsec. who cares about either? What do they have to do with WH PVP? nothing. Changing how profitable WHs are will have zero impact on anything to do with PVP in WHs and saying it will is missing the point.
WH space has all to reasons to PVP anyone can possibly need. What is lacking for some, apparently yourself included, is the correct attitude towards PVP. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ |
Winthorp
Sky Fighters
548
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Posted - 2014.01.01 12:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
Poasting in conflict drivers thread #34532423542342 |
Key Dett
Sky Fighters
13
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Posted - 2014.01.01 12:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
This thread has potential. |
solemnitus
Sky Fighters
2
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Posted - 2014.01.01 12:35:00 -
[5] - Quote
This thread matters. 2% of eve needs more attention. |
AtomYcX
Hard Knocks Inc. Kill It With Fire
59
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Posted - 2014.01.01 14:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
Duke Wendo wrote:- Wormholes (and null regions) from c1-c6 should fluctuate in terms of value. PI, asteroid belts, moons and combat sites should increase in value in unoccupied / low population systems and decrease in value as population rises/ belts are mined and sites are cleared.
This would mean you could settle down in a region/ w-space system but your ISK income would steadily decline or you could move around and fight over the more valuable regions, which would steadily decline or you could split up into smaller groups and have your system/ region provide ISK at a steady rate
So you mean every time we roll into an unoccupied system it's going to be stuffed full of sites to pillage? Awesome.
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Duke Wendo
Probe Patrol Polarized.
0
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Posted - 2014.01.01 16:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:The only conflict driver you need is the desire to shoot someone in the face. WH space doesnt need more 'conflict drivers' as you put it. what is a conflict driver anyway? to me it's just a term that's been thrown around lately by the few large WH groups who are looking for a justification to keep using their 30+ man T3 blobs while the rest of WH space has moved on.
That's the thing though- if we find people to shoot and they don't want to shoot back they are fully protected by their POS shields or their station. Unless we bring out a massive force to reinforce the structure then wait in their system for however many hours we have to turn tail and look elsewhere.
I'm talking about something that gives the small- medium gangs something to do- threaten the smaller assets in the system so people have to come out and defend or lose their stuff. |
ErrorRon
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
128
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Posted - 2014.01.01 17:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
Why all this violence? Can't we all just live in harmony? Daktaklakpak. may or may not be recruiting. Join ingame channel 'We're Bad' and find out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtItWL6GfSM CCP Gargant - -áDev of my heart. |
TurboX3
V0LTA Triumvirate.
42
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Posted - 2014.01.01 17:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
Duke has a fair point, @ least someone cares about wormhole space! |
TurboX3
V0LTA Triumvirate.
42
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Posted - 2014.01.01 17:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
Hail bob! |
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Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc. Kill It With Fire
103
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Posted - 2014.01.01 17:24:00 -
[11] - Quote
hai guise!
polarized is here to save your space! |
Duke Wendo
Probe Patrol Polarized.
0
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Posted - 2014.01.01 17:43:00 -
[12] - Quote
Witchway wrote:hai guise!
polarized is here to save your space!
in all seriousness, until they change POSs nothing like this sounds fun at all, moving every few months means endless logistics to take down POSs and put them back up and that in itself isn't worth it.
So you would stay put and set up a fortress-type home base- but you wouldn't get access to the most valuable areas of space.
Or do you want Eve to be the kind of game of convenience where everything goes your way without having to fight for it or fight to keep it?
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Proclus Diadochu
Obstergo Red Coat Conspiracy
645
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Posted - 2014.01.01 18:02:00 -
[13] - Quote
Hey Duke, Happy New Year and hope things are well with Probe :)
On topic: While I would never support bringing null mechanics into wormholes, such as moon mining or SOV upgrading and so on, I will say that some of the mechanic issues you brought up could help null as well as our community. Something that I saw ages ago was a concept to have moons deplete through usage, then the material would fill in another moon elsewhere. On that note, I don't know how well the community would feel about bringing moon materials to wormholes or what effect this would have on the T2 market? Wormholes are the T3 community, so our focus should be on the content that drives that market. I wouldn't want to bring in more PVE to attract the wrong crowd.
POS's (and destructable stations) have been a topic in the past and we can agree, I think, that the mechanics for POS's and POS management need some love. I think that modular POS's, dockable, timers, defenses, and/or whatever changes they make with them will greatly effect how the community and other communities deal with goodfights, invasions, and defense. Whether the mechanical changes would "drive conflict", I don't think it will.
I would agree with Jack that we are the conflict drivers. In null, many of the large wars have raged due to groups disliking other groups, trashtalk, coalition building, and the meta-game. As wormholers, we have to create the content for ourselves. CCP changing the mechanics won't drive the conflict/content. Our groups will drive it through our interactions with one another.
That being said, some mechanical changes could help to provide more ingame opportunities for conflicts to begin. Of course those changes would only last until we find a work around, as we always do in our community. The object of the game is to find something to drive your membership and make it happen. Wormhole Minister of High Society @autoritare | The Diogenes Club |
Rhavas
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
228
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Posted - 2014.01.01 20:05:00 -
[14] - Quote
About the only thing I think we need to "drive conflict" is more wormholes. Not new systems, new connections. Give dual statics (like C2s) to some other classes, particularly C4s. I can tell you that 8/10 times if we find a C4 we go do something else - scan a different chain, roll our static, etc. If C4s had two statics we'd likely keep driving through. More traffic = more conflict. Author of Interstellar Privateer Shattered Planets, Wormholes and Game Commentary |
Duke Wendo
Probe Patrol Polarized.
0
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Posted - 2014.01.01 22:41:00 -
[15] - Quote
Rhavas wrote:About the only thing I think we need to "drive conflict" is more wormholes. Not new systems, new connections. Give dual statics (like C2s) to some other classes, particularly C4s. I can tell you that 8/10 times if we find a C4 we go do something else - scan a different chain, roll our static, etc. If C4s had two statics we'd likely keep driving through. More traffic = more conflict.
That's a good idea to have more connections and more traffic, but still- if you find someone they can still dock or POS up and unless you want to put a great amount of time and effort into cracking open their heavily defended POS or structure grind their POCOs / stations- the small- medium gang can not touch their stuffs.
I'd like to see some structures with a moderate amount of hit points that the small- medium gangs can threaten. The moon mining or POCOS or some other stuff that defenders have to defend or lose and attackers can take. |
Svodola Darkfury
Heaven's End League of Infamy
352
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Posted - 2014.01.01 23:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
Duke Wendo wrote:Rhavas wrote:About the only thing I think we need to "drive conflict" is more wormholes. Not new systems, new connections. Give dual statics (like C2s) to some other classes, particularly C4s. I can tell you that 8/10 times if we find a C4 we go do something else - scan a different chain, roll our static, etc. If C4s had two statics we'd likely keep driving through. More traffic = more conflict. That's a good idea to have more connections and more traffic, but still- if you find someone they can still dock or POS up and unless you want to put a great amount of time and effort into cracking open their heavily defended POS or structure grind their POCOs / stations- the small- medium gang can not touch their stuffs. I'd like to see some structures with a moderate amount of hit points that the small- medium gangs can threaten. The moon mining or POCOS or some other stuff that defenders have to defend or lose and attackers can take.
We're back to the position I took 3 months ago the last time this thread appeared. It is absolutely the right of carebears to POS up and deny you a fight because you are capable of burning everything they love to the ground if they don't do what you want them to do and you feel like putting in the effort.
You don't have any more right to fights than they have rights not to fight. What you're talking about is trying to incentivize people to do PVP by forcing them to defend their assets. There's no scenario I see without severely nerfing the defensive capabilities of a wormhole group where you can force me to PVP against you if I don't think I can win. Further more, I don't think there SHOULD be a scenario where you can force me to PVP. The groups that don't PVP are either making a good choice because they know you out-number or out-class them OR they're making a good choice because they know they are terrible at PVP. In neither circumstance do I ever think you have some god-given right to ruin their day because you want more pew.
[edit]: I like the C4 super high-way idea.
Svodola Darkfury. CEO of Heaven's End; Bad League of Legends Player. |
Duke Wendo
Probe Patrol Polarized.
0
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Posted - 2014.01.01 23:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
We're back to the position I took 3 months ago the last time this thread appeared. It is absolutely the right of carebears to POS up and deny you a fight because you are capable of burning everything they love to the ground if they don't do what you want them to do and you feel like putting in the effort.
[b wrote:You don't have any more right to fights than they have rights not to fight.[/b] What you're talking about is trying to incentivize people to do PVP by forcing them to defend their assets. There's no scenario I see without severely nerfing the defensive capabilities of a wormhole group where you can force me to PVP against you if I don't think I can win. Further more, I don't think there SHOULD be a scenario where you can force me to PVP. The groups that don't PVP are either making a good choice because they know you out-number or out-class them OR they're making a good choice because they know they are terrible at PVP. In neither circumstance do I ever think you have some god-given right to ruin their day because you want more pew.
[edit]: I like the C4 super high-way idea.
Svodola Darkfury.
That's fine man... your opinion is just as valid as mine but don't you think that if someone moves out into supposedly lawless and dangerous space, it kind of defeats the object to have an indestructible station or a massive force-field protected base that requires a huge force to grind through hit points and waiting days for the chance to actually get to the defenders? If they show up!
And still they can log off or self destruct or escape in the time between attacking and reinforce timers?
I'm fine with people being 'protected' to a degree in high sec, but come on- once you venture into low/ null/ w-space you should be fighting to defend yourself and your assets out there.
That's why I suggested the force fields and stations should protect a certain amount of assets, but some should be able to be attacked by medium- smaller forces OUTSIDE the station/ POS where if you chose not to defend, then they would be lost to an attacker.
For example, something like reactions and manufacturing or PI stuffs should be done around a planet or POCO with a smaller number of hit points or a short reinforce timer. Something that would have to be defended or lost and re-built.
At the moment, small- medium gangs are no threat to anyone that builds a POS/ station. You don't have to protect or patrol the space you own because nothing is at risk until someone has done a massive structure grind and hours upon hours later (once you have self- destructed or escaped or logged off with all your expensive goodies) can actually threaten the stuff inside the shields.
Id like to take small- medium gangs out into w-space/null/low sec and be a menace to the people that live there and also have to actively patrol my home to protect what I have brought out into lawless space.
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Proclus Diadochu
Obstergo Red Coat Conspiracy
652
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Posted - 2014.01.02 00:12:00 -
[18] - Quote
Duke Wendo wrote: I'm fine with people being 'protected' to a degree in high sec, but come on- once you venture into low/ null/ w-space you should be fighting to defend yourself and your assets out there.
That's why I suggested the force fields and stations should protect a certain amount of assets, but some should be able to be attacked by medium- smaller forces OUTSIDE the station/ POS where if you chose not to defend, then they would be lost to an attacker.
For example, something like reactions and manufacturing or PI stuffs should be done around a planet or POCO with a smaller number of hit points or a short reinforce timer. Something that would have to be defended or lost and re-built.
At the moment, small- medium gangs are no threat to anyone that builds a POS/ station. You don't have to protect or patrol the space you own because nothing is at risk until someone has done a massive structure grind and hours upon hours later (once you have self- destructed or escaped or logged off with all your expensive goodies) can actually threaten the stuff inside the shields.
Id like to take small- medium gangs out into w-space/null/low sec and be a menace to the people that live there and also have to actively patrol my home to protect what I have brought out into lawless space.
The current structure/asset/timer mechanics help to offset issues that a global MMO has with TZ differences and PVP. If you are a Euro TZ and I roll into your hole mid US/early AU TZ and we wreck your assets with our medium/small size gang and there is nothing you can do, being outside your TZ, do you think that adds a good dynamic to the PVP game?
Also, we run small gangs into low/null all the time, and find oodles of content. I just don't think changes to PVE is the right answer to creating conflict drivers. As stated before, people drive conflict. Whether this game or others, you are going to find people that will not engage you no matter how much you burn to the ground. We've burnt down entire groups that never brought a fight, and they just SD'd some ships, podded themselves out, and hired mercs. No matter what changes we advise to the PVE gameplay, those people will still play their way. You may get a couple more ganks. If ganks are what you desire, then that is what you'll see with PI/Reactions et al changes.
The multi-static hole change is the most viable change I've seen in this thread for mechanics, other than the known POS issues. Wormhole Minister of High Society @autoritare | The Diogenes Club |
Icarus Able
Revenant Tactical
314
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Posted - 2014.01.02 00:33:00 -
[19] - Quote
You cant buff small to medium gangs without it being exploited by larger forces. THeres nothing wrong with a 5 man gang hiding from a 10 man gang is perfectly understandable, with your idea people could come in wreck a system with just one guy in a pos because hes out of tz or whatever.
. not saying a conflict driver wouldnt be interesting but your idea is AWFUL. reinforce timers are there for a reason |
Duke Wendo
Probe Patrol Polarized.
0
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Posted - 2014.01.02 00:35:00 -
[20] - Quote
Don't get me wrong, we enjoy going into null to kick the wasps nests every now and again, but in reality we don't do any real damage out there. We don't threaten anything important and I don't think anyone in null regards our little incursions with anything more than a short little inconvenience.
As for the TZ problems, that to me would just suggest getting people from different TZs into your corp/ alliance or having shorter reinforce timers- say 5-10 hours or something so that w-space dwellers have chance to see a fight through instead of having to be locked out of the fights due to wh timers.
Also like I said, I would imagine the main bulk of your stuff could be behind a structure grind, but the smaller stuff be more vulnerable to attack.
If you lose it because you were asleep or were outgunned/ outnumbered while people came in, maybe you would have to rebuild?
Outside of high sec, it's supposed to be hard. Don't you feel that it's just not worthwhile to attack anyone when they can just sit behind a structure and be granted (near) immunity?
Attack and defense should be balanced. If someone comes in with a small force, they can only threaten small assets. If they come in with a bigger force, they can threaten the bigger, more well defended assets. |
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Jack Miton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
2857
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Posted - 2014.01.02 00:40:00 -
[21] - Quote
Duke Wendo wrote:If you find someone they can still dock or POS up and unless you want to put a great amount of time and effort into cracking open their heavily defended POS or structure grind their POCOs / stations- the small- medium gang can not touch their stuffs. you know how you solve this 'issue'? lrn2scoutbetter. still betting blue balled by carebears? leave a scout. leave a cloaky T3. set up a POS. leave an afk cloaky bomber. infiltrate their corp. USE YOUR DAMN IMAGINATION SON!!!
WH space isnt about conflict drivers, it's about making your own conflict content. I know people, myself included, who have evicted/disbanded corps on their own simply by harassing them in their homes. You say you have no conflict drivers, I say youre just lazy. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ |
Svodola Darkfury
Heaven's End League of Infamy
353
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Posted - 2014.01.02 00:54:00 -
[22] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Duke Wendo wrote:If you find someone they can still dock or POS up and unless you want to put a great amount of time and effort into cracking open their heavily defended POS or structure grind their POCOs / stations- the small- medium gang can not touch their stuffs. you know how you solve this 'issue'? lrn2scoutbetter. still betting blue balled by carebears? leave a scout. leave a cloaky T3. set up a POS. leave an afk cloaky bomber. infiltrate their corp. USE YOUR DAMN IMAGINATION SON!!! WH space isnt about conflict drivers, it's about making your own conflict content. I know people, myself included, who have evicted/disbanded corps on their own simply by harassing them in their homes. You say you have no conflict drivers, I say youre just lazy.
Jack Miton for WH CSM. CEO of Heaven's End; Bad League of Legends Player. |
Jack Miton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
2857
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Posted - 2014.01.02 01:00:00 -
[23] - Quote
Svodola Darkfury wrote:Jack Miton wrote:Duke Wendo wrote:If you find someone they can still dock or POS up and unless you want to put a great amount of time and effort into cracking open their heavily defended POS or structure grind their POCOs / stations- the small- medium gang can not touch their stuffs. you know how you solve this 'issue'? lrn2scoutbetter. still betting blue balled by carebears? leave a scout. leave a cloaky T3. set up a POS. leave an afk cloaky bomber. infiltrate their corp. USE YOUR DAMN IMAGINATION SON!!! WH space isnt about conflict drivers, it's about making your own conflict content. I know people, myself included, who have evicted/disbanded corps on their own simply by harassing them in their homes. You say you have no conflict drivers, I say youre just lazy. Jack Miton for WH CSM. would be pretty slightly ironic since i'd be spending most of my time getting CCP to NOT add anything to WHs ;) Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ |
Winthorp
Sky Fighters
556
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Posted - 2014.01.02 01:06:00 -
[24] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Svodola Darkfury wrote:Jack Miton wrote:Duke Wendo wrote:If you find someone they can still dock or POS up and unless you want to put a great amount of time and effort into cracking open their heavily defended POS or structure grind their POCOs / stations- the small- medium gang can not touch their stuffs. you know how you solve this 'issue'? lrn2scoutbetter. still betting blue balled by carebears? leave a scout. leave a cloaky T3. set up a POS. leave an afk cloaky bomber. infiltrate their corp. USE YOUR DAMN IMAGINATION SON!!! WH space isnt about conflict drivers, it's about making your own conflict content. I know people, myself included, who have evicted/disbanded corps on their own simply by harassing them in their homes. You say you have no conflict drivers, I say youre just lazy. Jack Miton for WH CSM. would be pretty slightly ironic since i'd be spending most of my time getting CCP to NOT add anything to WHs ;)
Its ok Jack we never hear anything from either of our WH CSM's all those empty blogs they started...
All that feedback they promised on non NDA'd stuff...
All those minutes i read... Ohh wait. |
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters
669
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Posted - 2014.01.02 02:23:00 -
[25] - Quote
I am reading a lot of ideas that seem to stem from an abundance of laziness. Get off your ass and drive some conflict by shooting people in the face. No trolling please |
Jack Miton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
2858
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Posted - 2014.01.02 02:43:00 -
[26] - Quote
Bane Nucleus wrote:I am reading a lot of ideas that seem to stem from an abundance of laziness. Get off your ass and drive some conflict by shooting people in the face. Speaking of lazy, WHY HAS MY APP NOT BEEN ACCEPTED YET BANE!!??? Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ |
Winthorp
Sky Fighters
557
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Posted - 2014.01.02 02:47:00 -
[27] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Bane Nucleus wrote:I am reading a lot of ideas that seem to stem from an abundance of laziness. Get off your ass and drive some conflict by shooting people in the face. Speaking of lazy, WHY HAS MY APP NOT BEEN ACCEPTED YET BANE!!???
We are waiting for the other 3 people from SUSU to app so we can accept them all at once. |
StarFleetCommander
V0LTA Triumvirate.
257
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Posted - 2014.01.02 02:54:00 -
[28] - Quote
Bane Nucleus wrote:I am reading a lot of ideas that seem to stem from an abundance of laziness. Get off your ass and drive some conflict by shooting people in the face.
Not aloud in wormholes, NAPS EVERYWHERE!
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Winthorp
Sky Fighters
558
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Posted - 2014.01.02 02:57:00 -
[29] - Quote
StarFleetCommander wrote:Bane Nucleus wrote:I am reading a lot of ideas that seem to stem from an abundance of laziness. Get off your ass and drive some conflict by shooting people in the face. Not aloud in wormholes, NAPS EVERYWHERE!
tell us more about your hate for Wh's... We havn't heard it a thousand times already. |
Proclus Diadochu
Obstergo Red Coat Conspiracy
653
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Posted - 2014.01.02 03:04:00 -
[30] - Quote
Oh look. Conflict.
Wormhole Minister of High Society @autoritare | The Diogenes Club |
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