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Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2165
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Posted - 2014.01.04 00:36:00 -
[31] - Quote
Sigras wrote:IMHO the "safety number" is a bit low.
Assuming it takes 80 million isk per talos, and 6 talos' to take down a freighter, its profitable to gank a freighter hauling nothing but pyerite at current prices.
That seems a bit ridiculous that the second most common material in the universe is worth suicide ganking a ship over . . .
But the prices are entirely player driven, and if you change freighter EHP to match market conditions, what happens when those conditions shift again? |
Pipa Porto
1487
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 01:21:00 -
[32] - Quote
Sigras wrote:IMHO the "safety number" is a bit low.
Assuming it takes 80 million isk per talos, and 6 talos' to take down a freighter, its profitable to gank a freighter hauling nothing but pyerite at current prices.
That seems a bit ridiculous that the second most common material in the universe is worth suicide ganking a ship over . . .
So where are these many pyerite freighterload ganks. (One of the many) First rule of the market, if you think something's wildly profitable and nobody's doing it, you're probably missing something. Free money doesn't lie on the table long. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
I am disposable
Republic University Minmatar Republic
27
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 04:05:00 -
[33] - Quote
Sigras wrote:IMHO the "safety number" is a bit low.
Assuming it takes 80 million isk per talos, and 6 talos' to take down a freighter, its profitable to gank a freighter hauling nothing but pyerite at current prices.
That seems a bit ridiculous that the second most common material in the universe is worth suicide ganking a ship over . . .
Only in lower security high sec systems. But isn't that the point of security tiers in high sec? |
Meyr
SiN Corp Black Core Alliance
194
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Posted - 2014.01.04 04:49:00 -
[34] - Quote
If a freighter can be taken with ISBoxer, as evidenced by the kills posted, that should invalidate the earlier posts telling the haulers "get friends, get help!"
As I've posted before, reduce the freighter's cargo bay to the point where a T2 cargohold expander will provide them what is now their current capacity, and give each ship one low slot, 35 CPU, and 1 powergrid.
Let the pilot decide what he wants to fit.
And, before all of you 'leet PVPers' start whining and crying about 'don't give haulers a DC II!', just think - you know damned well that tougher haulers will mean bigger loot drops.
Give hauler pilots the same choice every other pilot gets - what do they need the most? Tank, speed, agility, or cargo capacity? |
Pipa Porto
1487
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 05:07:00 -
[35] - Quote
Meyr wrote:If a freighter can be taken with ISBoxer, as evidenced by the kills posted, that should invalidate the earlier posts telling the haulers "get friends, get help!"
You can also get alts. They did, and they need more than you do.
They need close on 10 accounts to perform a gank like that, whether alts or friends, it doesn't matter. You need 2 to prevent it.
They need 10 to kill you, you need 2 to keep safe.
Or just don't put all your stuff in one Freighter. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
john scherer
Video Professor
2
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Posted - 2014.01.04 05:26:00 -
[36] - Quote
HiddenPorpoise wrote:In order to make a freighter not worth ganking their ehp would need to be raised to a stupid amount that would make killing freighters outside of ganks more trouble than it's worth. Those kills you posted are carrying 5-8 times the safe load.
Also, kill posting is a banable offense.
I missed that part of the forum rules. Thanks for pointing that out, though they were not intended to inflame tempers but just to show what I was talking about. You're absolutely right though and I'll look out and not do that again! ;)
I'm not suggesting we make freighter ganking not worth it, it is just too easy (IMHO), I don't think it needs to go away because it is a legitimate practice in the grand scheme of things. It has just been put out of balance if you ask me and a little evening of the odds is in order, that's my stance with this one.
I think highsec ganking needs to be reasonable costly and difficult, not as easy as it has become. |
Sigras
Conglomo
639
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Posted - 2014.01.05 01:12:00 -
[37] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Sigras wrote:IMHO the "safety number" is a bit low.
Assuming it takes 80 million isk per talos, and 6 talos' to take down a freighter, its profitable to gank a freighter hauling nothing but pyerite at current prices.
That seems a bit ridiculous that the second most common material in the universe is worth suicide ganking a ship over . . . So where are these many pyerite freighterload ganks. (One of the many) First rule of the market, if you think something's wildly profitable and nobody's doing it, you're probably missing something. Free money doesn't lie on the table long. yeah because people dont have tens of millions of pyerite lying around that they need to ship by itself.
Im just saying that even random crap collected from missions wont fill a freighter without exceeding the "safety limit" and that seems a bit silly.
Thats like pirates raiding a cargo ship full of scrapyard material |
Pipa Porto
1489
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 01:32:00 -
[38] - Quote
Sigras wrote:yeah because people dont have tens of millions of pyerite lying around that they need to ship by itself.
Im just saying that even random crap collected from missions wont fill a freighter without exceeding the "safety limit" and that seems a bit silly.
Thats like pirates raiding a cargo ship full of scrapyard material
When I was building Battleships to prepare for tiericide, had I sent my pyerite alone, I would have sent about a freighterload of pure pyerite every day. As it was, I mixed higher value minerals into my couriers for knapsacking reasons, but that would just make the freighters more interesting to gankers, so that doesn't help your argument.
People do have tens of millions of pyerite needing to be shipped.
But, to allow for your use of rhetorical devices, where are all the ganks of the Freighters filled with just low end minerals? Or are you going to claim that nobody ships low end minerals around? EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
271
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 01:56:00 -
[39] - Quote
When I was buying minerals for my Avatar, I had buy orders up in different market hubs all across Eve. I then had to get it all to the same station so it could be turned into rail guns to move it down to 0.0. Unlike the victims in the first post, I was smart enough to do two things:
1. I split my minerals up into piles that would fit in a freighter and not exceed 1b ISK total value. 2. I made courier contracts to Red Frog that did not exceed 1b ISK and were fully insured by the collateral.
Not a single one of my shipments got ganked. The same is true for every other courier contract I have ever given to Red Frog. They appear to be doing something right - perhaps the OP should try to figure out what that is before he complains about suicide banking. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
2702
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 02:15:00 -
[40] - Quote
What they need to do is slash the base cargo capacity for all freighters, add rig slots, low and medium slots and grid and CPU such that you can't exceed the 1,000,000 m3 cargo capacity (to prevent capitals from being hauled into high-sec). Jump freighters get one less rig slot. This was you could buff the sheds, hull, armor, velocity, align time, warp speed, etc.
Where's the Millennium Falcon when you need it? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
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Dark Nanny
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.01.05 03:48:00 -
[41] - Quote
A freighter being flown with Evasive V and the correct set of implants has the ability to instawebwarp. Use a Fenrir and you don't even need any implants. Bring a Rapier along for it's increased web range and you're always in the correct range.
With this strategy you can't even be scanned down, let alone ganked. This isn't a T1 hauler; many will not be willing to throw 8 x Talos at you just to see if something valuable *might* be in that cargohold. Add the fact that most freighter ganks occur after the targetted is bumped away from gate guns... something this is borderline impossible when the freighter is being instawebwarped.
Will you be targetted by some? YES. They will view your web warping the same way they view "plastic wrap". Thus on a slow night you will become an interesting target to break the boredom. |
sci0gon
Kaira Innovations Superior Eve Engineering
18
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 07:36:00 -
[42] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Net result: suicide ganking has a lower set up cost than before... but the loss is now total... meaning that it actually costs more to suicide gank than ever before.
i disagree with that statement on the fact that the high sec gankers from the code alliance have killed several freighters varying from 0.5 to 0.9 systems with nothing more then 10-25 destroyer class ships (catalysts / thrashers) which costs no more then two talos's at the most shared across several pilots compared to a 1.1-1.2bil freighter and whatever the value of the drops. while others may not follow the same ship composition for ganking it is purely down to them as everyone likes flying different things.
compared to null sec high sec is a lot safer but it isnt 100% safe and suiciding can occur in almost any ship you fly apart from cloakers unless you mess up and the thing for freighters in my own personal opinion is that they are just paper bags nothing more but it would be nice if they were made a little more sturdy to compare to the overall price you have to pay for them even if it was something like 1 low slot at least then you could throw a damage control In there |
Pipa Porto
1490
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 09:29:00 -
[43] - Quote
sci0gon wrote:i disagree with that statement on the fact that the high sec gankers from the code alliance have killed several freighters varying from 0.5 to 0.9 systems with nothing more then 10-25 destroyer class ships (catalysts / thrashers) which costs no more then two talos's at the most shared across several pilots compared to a 1.1-1.2bil freighter and whatever the value of the drops. while others may not follow the same ship composition for ganking it is purely down to them as everyone likes flying different things.
And ganking with Destroyers now is more expensive than ganking with Cruisers (maybe even BCs) was before the insurance change. People used battleships because they were cheap enough, or because that was the way to perform alpha ganks.
If it takes 20 people working together to kill your solo, unsupported Freighter, how is that unbalanced against the solo freighter? The cost of your ship is not a valid balancing factor. Otherwise, Marauders would have 200k EHP.
By the way, you can also gank a Freighter for 0 ISK cost by using hundreds of noobships and civilian guns. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Sigras
Conglomo
640
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 10:41:00 -
[44] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Sigras wrote:yeah because people dont have tens of millions of pyerite lying around that they need to ship by itself.
Im just saying that even random crap collected from missions wont fill a freighter without exceeding the "safety limit" and that seems a bit silly.
Thats like pirates raiding a cargo ship full of scrapyard material When I was building Battleships to prepare for tiericide, had I sent my pyerite alone, I would have sent about a freighterload of pure pyerite every day. As it was, I mixed higher value minerals into my couriers for knapsacking reasons, but that would just make the freighters more interesting to gankers, so that doesn't help your argument. People do have tens of millions of pyerite needing to be shipped. But, to allow for your use of rhetorical devices, where are all the ganks of the Freighters filled with just low end minerals? Or are you going to claim that nobody ships low end minerals around? EDIT: I did your job for you and took a gander at the first half page or so of Zkill's freighter kills, and the only 2 ganks valued under about 5-6b ISK had double wrapped packages. I think we're talking about different things here. I never said that there are at ton of freighter kills including just pyerite; I said that it would be profitable to gank those freighters (if only slightly)
My argument is that the penalty is to low because the math says it would actually be kinda difficult to fill a freighter without making your ship profitable to gank. The only thing that saves your ship is the fact that there are people who fill their ship way past profitable and keep going, so the gankers are probably waiting for someone more stupid to come along. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1083
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 11:32:00 -
[45] - Quote
Sigras wrote: I think we're talking about different things here. I never said that there are at ton of freighter kills including just pyerite; I said that it would be profitable to gank those freighters (if only slightly)
My argument is that the penalty is too low because the math says it would actually be kinda difficult to fill a freighter without making your ship profitable to gank. The only thing that saves your ship is the fact that there are people who fill their ship way past profitable and keep going, so the gankers are probably waiting for someone more stupid to come along.
Indeed. But what you've just demonstrated is that "am I profitable to gank?" isn't the appropriate metric for a freighter pilot to use, because, as you say, the gankers will ignore the freighter full of pyerite and wait for something better. So it's wrong to conclude that the penalty for ganking is too low based on that methodology.
As you say, the appropriate metric is a relative one, not an absolute one, and it's further modified by system sec and route planning. Personally, I get uncomfortable when hauling more than 2 bill, which fortunately isn't very often. |
I am disposable
Republic University Minmatar Republic
38
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 13:17:00 -
[46] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Sigras wrote:yeah because people dont have tens of millions of pyerite lying around that they need to ship by itself.
Im just saying that even random crap collected from missions wont fill a freighter without exceeding the "safety limit" and that seems a bit silly.
Thats like pirates raiding a cargo ship full of scrapyard material When I was building Battleships to prepare for tiericide, had I sent my pyerite alone, I would have sent about a freighterload of pure pyerite every day. As it was, I mixed higher value minerals into my couriers for knapsacking reasons, but that would just make the freighters more interesting to gankers, so that doesn't help your argument. People do have tens of millions of pyerite needing to be shipped. But, to allow for your use of rhetorical devices, where are all the ganks of the Freighters filled with just low end minerals? Or are you going to claim that nobody ships low end minerals around? EDIT: I did your job for you and took a gander at the first half page or so of Zkill's freighter kills, and the only 2 ganks valued under about 5-6b ISK had double wrapped packages. I think we're talking about different things here. I never said that there are at ton of freighter kills including just pyerite; I said that it would be profitable to gank those freighters (if only slightly) My argument is that the penalty is to low because the math says it would actually be kinda difficult to fill a freighter without making your ship profitable to gank. The only thing that saves your ship is the fact that there are people who fill their ship way past profitable and keep going, so the gankers are probably waiting for someone more stupid to come along.
You seem to be operating under a false supposition. Just because freighters can carry a lot of cargo doesn't mean they are supposed to carry a lot of valuable cargo (and even common minerals can be considered valuable cargo). That is to say that if you decide to load up your freighter with billions of isk in cargo, CCP has no intention of you to being safe in doing so, especially not in 0.5 systems. |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA
194
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 13:24:00 -
[47] - Quote
Call me crazy but I was under the impression the maximum safe load of a freighter was about 1 billion ISK (this also happens to be the maximum load of Red Frog Freighter -- who very rarely get suicide ganked and do a massive amountof hauling).
The killmails you listed show people hauling 5x that amount.
Obviously they are going to get suicide ganked........ |
Istyn
Freight Club The Marmite Collective
277
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 13:34:00 -
[48] - Quote
Seranova Farreach wrote: the isk spent to gank a frieghter is extreamly minimal compaired to losses.. like 5 of 6 tier3 BCs still come out on profit ganking just a charon hull with no cargo
They earn a profit despite the Charon being empty?
Wat. |
Pipa Porto
1492
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 17:03:00 -
[49] - Quote
Sigras wrote:I think we're talking about different things here. I never said that there are at ton of freighter kills including just pyerite; I said that it would be profitable to gank those freighters (if only slightly)
And I'm saying that if they were actually profitable to gank, people would be ganking them. That's a basic principle of economics. If people aren't ganking them (and they aren't), you're missing something in your profit calculations (I'm betting it's the cost of labor, but that's just a guess).
Quote:My argument is that the penalty is to low because the math says it would actually be kinda difficult to fill a freighter without making your ship profitable to gank. The only thing that saves your ship is the fact that there are people who fill their ship way past profitable and keep going, so the gankers are probably waiting for someone more stupid to come along.
Or hey, opportunity cost.
The easiest (and best) way to figure out the safe limit is to do so empirically. Look at the killboards and see what's been ganked. Then don't fill your Freighter with 5b worth of stuff and you'll be fine.
Or, learn one of the many ways to actively protect your Freighter. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Cora Namoor
Vicis Inter Astrum Solar Destiny
0
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 17:20:00 -
[50] - Quote
Istyn wrote:Seranova Farreach wrote: the isk spent to gank a frieghter is extreamly minimal compaired to losses.. like 5 of 6 tier3 BCs still come out on profit ganking just a charon hull with no cargo
They earn a profit despite the Charon being empty? Wat.
I believe he was referring to it in a WarDec fashion: 5-6 Tier 3 BC's for 1 Freighter is a good trade for the killboards.
Reworking the Freighters is the best call. How about Jump Freighters comparable to the Rorqual with a Ship Maintenance array just have limits on the ship size, and jump clones.
P.S. also a big fan of races getting special holds like the industrials. |
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
994
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 18:10:00 -
[51] - Quote
Cora Namoor wrote:
I believe he was referring to it in a WarDec fashion: 5-6 Tier 3 BC's for 1 Freighter is a good trade for the killboards.
war decs are totally relevant to this thread. There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
1654
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 21:56:00 -
[52] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote: This would leave it in the position that it has to be a nerf one way or the other, you just get a choice of what your nerf is. Freighters are crap enough without being nerfed. If they removed the cargo element, and that's the bit that should really be static, they could easily balance the modules against the defense and speed, allowing pilots proactively looking to survive to do so and AFK pilots to be at increased risk.
As it currently sits, the only way to not get ganked in a freighter is if the gankers don't want to gank you. It's not like there is any step you can take beyond making yourself less appealing to survive. So from a gameplay perspective, they are terribly designed.
I'd say that allowing choice should be the number one priority for a sandbox game, and currently freighters have none. You get in a freighter and you are at the mercy of the people who target you. Pretty much the only thing that will save your once they've chosen to target you is incompetence on their part. There should be a way for an active pilot to proactively take action to make themselves more difficult to gank.
There are plenty of ways to prevent ganks. Three have been mentioned in this thread, if you read them - in-corp allies providing instaweb warping, out-of-corp allies in ECM boats, out-of-corp allies in logistics ships. The last two are less useful in wardec situations but if you haul in a freighter while under wardec you deserve what is coming to you. (Same thing if you haul with killrights against you, whether they be public or private KRs).
Or you can use a different ship. Sometimes a freighter is the wrong tool and a JF is the right tool, even for high-high transport - if you are taking a 10b load from Jita to Dodixie, you might want to JF it to Archee or Sharuveil or (in a very quiet time on the server) Decon, then fly it in bypassing Uedama and surrounding systems entirely. Sure, you are technically as vulnerable in Balle as you are in Uedama, but I have only ever seen one freighter gank in Balle and I spend a lot of time ganking in that system.
Freighter pilots have lots of choice. They choose their allies. They choose whether or not those allies are allowed into their corporation. And they choose who they tell and do not tell about their movements. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. An enemy is just a friend that you stab in the front. |
Istyn
Freight Club The Marmite Collective
277
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 23:24:00 -
[53] - Quote
Cora Namoor wrote:
I believe he was referring to it in a WarDec fashion: 5-6 Tier 3 BC's for 1 Freighter is a good trade for the killboards.
As already pointed out, wardecs are unrelated but that is just entirely ridiculous anyway. |
Sigras
Conglomo
647
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 10:02:00 -
[54] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Sigras wrote:I think we're talking about different things here. I never said that there are at ton of freighter kills including just pyerite; I said that it would be profitable to gank those freighters (if only slightly) And I'm saying that if they were actually profitable to gank, people would be ganking them. That's a basic principle of economics. If people aren't ganking them (and they aren't), you're missing something in your profit calculations (I'm betting it's the cost of labor, but that's just a guess). Quote:My argument is that the penalty is to low because the math says it would actually be kinda difficult to fill a freighter without making your ship profitable to gank. The only thing that saves your ship is the fact that there are people who fill their ship way past profitable and keep going, so the gankers are probably waiting for someone more stupid to come along. Or hey, opportunity cost. The easiest (and best) way to figure out the safe limit is to do so empirically. Look at the killboards and see what's been ganked. Then don't fill your Freighter with 5b worth of stuff and you'll be fine. Or, learn one of the many ways to actively protect your Freighter. Im sorry are you arguing with my math? Are you saying it isnt worth suicide ganking a freighter worth under a billion? because I just ran the numbers and they will surprise you.
The fact that nobody does it is because there are a limited number of people out there willing to suicide gank, and the stupid people who put 2 billion in their freighter are protected by the even more stupid people who but 5 billion in their freighter who are protected by the even more stupid people who put 20 billion isk in their freighter.
The invisible hand of the market isnt perfect because people dont always do what is in their best interest. If they did, the break even point for gankability would settle in around 2,000 ISK/EHP or so.
TL;DR Just because it doesnt happen doesnt mean it isnt profitable, it just isnt AS profitable as ganking someone more stupid. |
Pipa Porto
1519
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 10:14:00 -
[55] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Im sorry are you arguing with my math? Are you saying it isnt worth suicide ganking a freighter worth under a billion? because I just ran the numbers and they will surprise you.
The fact that nobody does it is because there are a limited number of people out there willing to suicide gank, and the stupid people who put 2 billion in their freighter are protected by the even more stupid people who but 5 billion in their freighter who are protected by the even more stupid people who put 20 billion isk in their freighter.
Pipa Porto wrote:Or hey, opportunity cost.
Looks like you've discovered the concept of opportunity cost. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
897
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 10:35:00 -
[56] - Quote
Consider also, the reason people aren't ganking freighters full of Pyrite, is because the industrialists who are dealing large enough to need that are smart enough to not do it, since not many people really need that much. |
Sigras
Conglomo
657
|
Posted - 2014.01.20 11:29:00 -
[57] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Sigras wrote:Im sorry are you arguing with my math? Are you saying it isnt worth suicide ganking a freighter worth under a billion? because I just ran the numbers and they will surprise you.
The fact that nobody does it is because there are a limited number of people out there willing to suicide gank, and the stupid people who put 2 billion in their freighter are protected by the even more stupid people who but 5 billion in their freighter who are protected by the even more stupid people who put 20 billion isk in their freighter. Pipa Porto wrote:Or hey, opportunity cost. Looks like you've discovered the concept of opportunity cost. Clearly I understand opportunity cost; im saying that it is poor game design to expect there to be REALLY stupid people out there who protect the kinda stupid people.
The fact is that if everyone did what was in their best interest (which i know is a long way off, but is still what the game should be designed around) then it would be profitable to gank a freighter filled with pyerite, and that is a problem.
Basically all it would take would be for goonswarm to get bored again and start ganking every freighter in sight worth more than 500 million isk (which btw they would still make quite the profit on). |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
877
|
Posted - 2014.01.20 11:43:00 -
[58] - Quote
So... are people still having difficulties in understanding the concept of a capital ship vulnerable when flown alone ? As said above, use a stasis alt, problem solved.
If you want to be able to do stuff alone, do not use a capital ship. By definition. I'm signature tanking !
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Rendiff
Funk Soul Brothers High Rollers
46
|
Posted - 2014.01.20 14:33:00 -
[59] - Quote
I think freighters just need fitting slots. That would probably solve a lot of their issues. |
Meyr
SiN Corp Black Core Alliance
274
|
Posted - 2014.01.20 14:49:00 -
[60] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:There was a time when freighter ganking was done by battleships... that could be insured.
Then insurance was removed from ships that were killed by CONCORD.
Then Tier 3 Battlecruisers were introduced.
Net result: suicide ganking has a lower set up cost than before... but the loss is now total... meaning that it actually costs more to suicide gank than ever before.
If this is true, then why is ganking more popular than ever? If it was actually more expensive, wouldn't FEWER people be doing it, and wouldn't the 'floor' value of gankable targets have gone UP?
Since neither of those statements is true, I call 'bullshit' on that kind of reasoning. |
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