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ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone Caldari State
35
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Posted - 2014.01.06 14:24:00 -
[271] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: So what would you consider someone who severely undercuts all other orders in the market, to the point where reselling your items at a cost competitive to theirs would cause you to lose significant amounts of ISK? I'd consider that roughly equivalent to the ganker who liberates you from your ship without notice.
I simply would not list it, or move it to a system farther away..... Heck, I might make even more ISK then! Again, I get to choose. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8129
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 14:25:00 -
[272] - Quote
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: So what would you consider someone who severely undercuts all other orders in the market, to the point where reselling your items at a cost competitive to theirs would cause you to lose significant amounts of ISK? I'd consider that roughly equivalent to the ganker who liberates you from your ship without notice.
I simply would not list it, or move it to a system farther away..... Heck, I might make even more ISK then! Again, I get to choose. PVP elsewhere in the game is no different. You always have choices. My EVE Videos |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
4216
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 14:30:00 -
[273] - Quote
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
I get to PICK when to PvP.
Then why are you playing a game that has (as one of it's corner stones) NON-CONSENSUAL PVP?
This is what I was talking about when I said people like you make bad choices. Non-consensual pvp didn't just happen in EVE, it was a founding principle. If you don't like one of the core founding principles of EVE, why do you play EVE? |
Seven Koskanaiken
Sons Of Saints Circle-Of-Two
707
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 14:33:00 -
[274] - Quote
ZynnLee Akkori wrote: I get to PICK when to PvP. I can actually fight back and potentially win. In contrast, in Eve, I have to reduce my effectiveness at making ISK (which allows me to continue to play) to make it a little bit harder for people to gank me. You know, if there were a 100% block on non-duel PvP in highsec, I would probably put myself on the edge of lowsec, and actually participate in real PvP! I could log in, do my 'boring' carebear stuff, and then go fight. There is a reason why in other MMO's there are PvE and PvP realms. Lots and lots of people like to be able to pick the way they play.
What you mean to say is that you have traded a higher yield with greater oscillations in your net worth in exchange for a lower yield but with less variance. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6116
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 14:35:00 -
[275] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
I get to PICK when to PvP.
Then why are you playing a game that has (as one of it's corner stones) NON-CONSENSUAL PVP? This is what I was talking about when I said people like you make bad choices. Non-consensual pvp didn't just happen in EVE, it was a founding principle. If you don't like one of the core founding principles of EVE, why do you play EVE? The ganker gets to pick when to "PVP" as well, and it happens to be the miner. In the belt. In highsec.
(Ganking isn't pvp) ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers. |
Ramona McCandless
Epic Boo Bees
1994
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 14:38:00 -
[276] - Quote
ZynnLee Akkori wrote: Bf2 was my first FPS, and I was completely stunned. It was incredible. When 2142 come out, I moved over and loved it even more, despite the loss of some of the physics effects (HALO drops were wicked fun). Funny how no one ever talks about 2142.... BF3 and 4 are incredible due to their depth and breadth of the maps, and the pure incredible nature of their effects. The first time in 3 that a jet exploded by me in game, I literally jumped in my seat.
/endofftopic
\continuingofftopic
See, I dont get why you think these games were improved.
2142 was a cute enough game, very like Tribes in places, but woefully undersupported and no interesting backstory to speak of.
BF3 and 4 had large maps you say? Really? Is that why they poohed all over the concept of vehicle combat, multi-crewed vehicles and reduced it to an infantry slugfest?
And yeah, nice effect, if you can afford a rig that could run em.
*** Vote MTU For CSM *** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." --áPontianak Sythaeryn Omnis nomiom nom nom nomi |
Ramona McCandless
Epic Boo Bees
1994
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 14:39:00 -
[277] - Quote
ZynnLee Akkori wrote: I get to choose.
Yes, you do
So why deny that choice to others? *** Vote MTU For CSM *** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." --áPontianak Sythaeryn Omnis nomiom nom nom nomi |
Seven Koskanaiken
Sons Of Saints Circle-Of-Two
707
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 14:41:00 -
[278] - Quote
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:Market pvp is fine. I get to choose when to engage. People aren't about to 'jump' me and steal my ISK. I can read the terms, do the math, and make decisions. All of that is taken away in ganking. I don't want to eliminate PvP, and I don't even want to eliminate *all* ganking. As I've said many time, all I want is to make it a much more serious effort to be able to gank.
The math is
Revenue (ore sold) - Expenses (replaced barges) = Income
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Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
354
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 14:54:00 -
[279] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:ZynnLee Akkori wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: So what would you consider someone who severely undercuts all other orders in the market, to the point where reselling your items at a cost competitive to theirs would cause you to lose significant amounts of ISK? I'd consider that roughly equivalent to the ganker who liberates you from your ship without notice.
I simply would not list it, or move it to a system farther away..... Heck, I might make even more ISK then! Again, I get to choose. PVP elsewhere in the game is no different.You always have choices. You're illustrating my point. You've countered my point about market "gankers" by pointing out things you can do to mitigate their effect. It's no different than with your mining and gankers there.
Dude, are you really trying to use logic in here? What the hell are you thinking?
Paranoia never killed anyone. -áA complete absence of it has. |
Meyr
SiN Corp Black Core Alliance
220
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 15:05:00 -
[280] - Quote
Kimmi Chan wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:ZynnLee Akkori wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: So what would you consider someone who severely undercuts all other orders in the market, to the point where reselling your items at a cost competitive to theirs would cause you to lose significant amounts of ISK? I'd consider that roughly equivalent to the ganker who liberates you from your ship without notice.
I simply would not list it, or move it to a system farther away..... Heck, I might make even more ISK then! Again, I get to choose. PVP elsewhere in the game is no different.You always have choices. You're illustrating my point. You've countered my point about market "gankers" by pointing out things you can do to mitigate their effect. It's no different than with your mining and gankers there. Dude, are you really trying to use logic in here? What the hell are you thinking?
I think you've just won the forums.... |
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Knights Armament
We Chosen Chaos'd all over you non-factors
191
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 15:26:00 -
[281] - Quote
If you give the carebears an inch, they try to take 3 miles. We must stop carebears, even if that means killing every employee at EA/Blizzard/Activision/Apple. We will program a virus to destroy the carebears, when biology 5 finishes training, you have been warned. http://evemouthbreathers.blogspot.com/
https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=29554516-05f9-4eca-a942-32e1701a6569&action=buddy |
Luwc
Easy Co. Fatal Ascension
32
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 15:30:00 -
[282] - Quote
So ? I mean I really dont get your butthurt post. Why ? Whats the point ?
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Chirjo Durruti
AEGIS Innovations
2
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 15:41:00 -
[283] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
I get to PICK when to PvP.
Then why are you playing a game that has (as one of it's corner stones) NON-CONSENSUAL PVP? This is what I was talking about when I said people like you make bad choices. Non-consensual pvp didn't just happen in EVE, it was a founding principle. If you don't like one of the core founding principles of EVE, why do you play EVE? Easy: 1. it's a Science Fiction themed game 2. I can build/collect stuff in it 3. I can easily show this stuff to others. 4. despite it's army of sociopaths and paranoiacs, there are nice people in EvE and i like meeting them.
I don't play EvE because it has non-consensual pvp (regardless of how much of a corner stone you think it is), I play it because it's a scifi themed sandbox MMO.
When I do PvP, I do it because I have to in order to defend the stuff i built/collected. HOWTO: No More Tears (solo) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdA4ciUrH-k If you can get me a better crew than THIS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPrtQ9AdoM0 convo me. |
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
360
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 15:51:00 -
[284] - Quote
Chirjo Durruti wrote:When I do PvP, I do it because I have to in order to defend the stuff i built/collected.
And that's the ballgame folks!
You don't have to PvP all the time. But you are in a PvP environment all the time and defending your **** is a reasonable response to this.
Paranoia never killed anyone. -áA complete absence of it has. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
4217
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 16:07:00 -
[285] - Quote
Chirjo Durruti wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
I get to PICK when to PvP.
Then why are you playing a game that has (as one of it's corner stones) NON-CONSENSUAL PVP? This is what I was talking about when I said people like you make bad choices. Non-consensual pvp didn't just happen in EVE, it was a founding principle. If you don't like one of the core founding principles of EVE, why do you play EVE? Easy: 1. it's a Science Fiction themed game 2. I can build/collect stuff in it 3. I can easily show this stuff to others. 4. despite it's army of sociopaths and paranoiacs, there are nice people in EvE and i like meeting them. I don't play EvE because it has non-consensual pvp (regardless of how much of a corner stone you think it is), I play it because it's a scifi themed sandbox MMO. When I do PvP, I do it because I have to in order to defend the stuff i built/collected.
And good for you. But you miss the point.
No one said pvp was all EVE has, I said "EVe has non-consensual pvp" meaning pvp can happen to you anywhere anytime unlike in other games where pvp can only happen is you allow it or in certain "zones" (or in certain servers).
If you don't like (or are at least able to accept) the concept of non-consensual pvp, EVE is an astoundingly bad choice of game. it would be like playing soccer iof you were allergic to both grass and the stuff soccer balls are made out of lol.
The people complaining about gankers are making a bad choice by playing EVE. They should be playing a game that only has consensual pvp (or no pvp at all) instead of coming here and complaining about something is vital to the game (non-consensual pvp).
Then again it's probably dumb to expect the same people who have a hard time taking responsibility for their real lives to take responsibility for their gameplay choices lol. Not directed at you Chirjo, I'm saying 'in general'. |
Moneta Curran
Lunar Industries Ltd
258
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 16:12:00 -
[286] - Quote
Whatever.
As long as we still get to ruin the OP's and like-minded individuals' day by destroying their assets, all is good in Eve.
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4358
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 16:41:00 -
[287] - Quote
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:It's a sad day when people of the type who, when they were children, would have taken a magnifying glass to ants, are applauded for their embrace of the rules of the game and resistance against changes.
I preferred to pull the legs off beetles & watch them starve to death, so being a suicide ganker in a computer game is obviously what I was going to fit in to based on my childhood. This user won the forums on 18/09/2013, then lost on 18/12/2013. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4358
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 16:44:00 -
[288] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:ZynnLee Akkori wrote:It's a sad day when people of the type who, when they were children, would have taken a magnifying glass to ants, are applauded for their embrace of the rules of the game and resistance against changes. Ah yes, the old "gankers tortured animals as children and grew up to become delinquents, drug users, rapists, murderers, and thieves in real life while they're not playing EVE." (Well I guess the drug users thing is certainly true for some of us at least.)
I resent that statement. When I started playing EVE I was a miner & loved the hell out of that profession... Then I stopped taking drugs. This user won the forums on 18/09/2013, then lost on 18/12/2013. |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
435
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 17:20:00 -
[289] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: EVERYTHING in EVE is a pvp activity. As a PVE player, I succeed because i understand this.
Kimmi Chan wrote: I'm a hi-sec mission runner and I am fed up with everyone coming to these forums to demand changes to suit their AND ONLY THEIR style of play.
And I'm a high-sec miner, happily engaging in industry/market pvp since 2008.
Isn't it noteworthy that amidst all this static, it's other hi sec / pve players defending gankers' rights?
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:This one wants to raise the bar to entry for ganking so that fewer PvE players have to deal with un-fun activities in a GAME they play.
No. What you want is to turn the virtually lawless dystopia we all know and love into the Federation of Planets. Pandas in space. Unfortunately, this is not Star Trek and you are not on the bridge of the Enterprise. You are in Orion Syndicate space here (or Mos Eisely if you prefer a star wars reference) and you should never let your guard down. The danger is part of the lure.
So when we see things like:
ZynnLee Akkori wrote: "I enjoy the game too, just not the part that puts me at risk of sociopathic aggression"
or
"... jerks bought them all out and re-listed at inflated prices. So CCP had to put multiple thousands on the market to discourage asshat flippers."
or
"...I love the PvE part of the game, but dislike getting ganked while having fun. Notice the separation there? Ganking is not fun."
we (even other hi sec / pve players) recognize someone who is trying to make EVE into something it is not, instead of adapting to and reveling in what it is. Because like many who have come before you and who have since either adapted or moved on we have seen this argument 1000x and already know that:
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:In contrast, in Eve, I have to reduce my effectiveness at making ISK (which allows me to continue to play) to make it a little bit harder for people to gank me.
is the real issue here. I just can't believe you actually wrote it.
YK "High-five, fist bump, explode, implode, fist bump again, under-five, up-five, chest-bump...ohhhhh....call 911!"
|
Rumtin
Imperium Technologies Get Off My Lawn
54
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 07:03:00 -
[290] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Deunan Tenephais wrote:Frankly there is no need for "honor", it's supposed to be piracy, not chivalry.
Perhaps saying there is a lack of ambition is more apt to define ganking. Gankers tend to be pretty ambitious, but of course, nowhere near as ambitious as the mission runners & miners who aspire to do nothing & want zero contact with people. CCP can make that come true.
Why even bother playing an Online MMO then? Why not just play a single player game?
Face facts, EvE is a game where you WILL interact with other members of the community, whether that interaction is deemed good or bad depends on the players themselves. If someone has a problem with that, then they should re-think the game they choose to play. |
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4361
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 07:09:00 -
[291] - Quote
Rumtin wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Deunan Tenephais wrote:Frankly there is no need for "honor", it's supposed to be piracy, not chivalry.
Perhaps saying there is a lack of ambition is more apt to define ganking. Gankers tend to be pretty ambitious, but of course, nowhere near as ambitious as the mission runners & miners who aspire to do nothing & want zero contact with people. CCP can make that come true. Why even bother playing an Online MMO then? Why not just play a single player game? Face facts, EvE is a game where you WILL interact with other members of the community, whether that interaction is deemed good or bad depends on the players themselves. If someone has a problem with that, then they should re-think the game they choose to play.
CCP needs to make this game 100% safe for people that don't want to participate in PvP or they will go out of business. This user won the forums on 18/09/2013, then lost on 18/12/2013. |
Rumtin
Imperium Technologies Get Off My Lawn
54
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 10:36:00 -
[292] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Rumtin wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Deunan Tenephais wrote:Frankly there is no need for "honor", it's supposed to be piracy, not chivalry.
Perhaps saying there is a lack of ambition is more apt to define ganking. Gankers tend to be pretty ambitious, but of course, nowhere near as ambitious as the mission runners & miners who aspire to do nothing & want zero contact with people. CCP can make that come true. Why even bother playing an Online MMO then? Why not just play a single player game? Face facts, EvE is a game where you WILL interact with other members of the community, whether that interaction is deemed good or bad depends on the players themselves. If someone has a problem with that, then they should re-think the game they choose to play. CCP needs to make this game 100% safe for people that don't want to participate in PvP or they will go out of business.
Haha, right. 10+ years running and only NOW were going to go out of business unless we change. |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
634
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 13:13:00 -
[293] - Quote
Ok, here goes,
I lost my first mining barge just after I was able to afford it, ganked in .5 by a catalyst.
I lost my second in a wormhole.
One made me feel like crap.
The other felt like a fair kill, kudos to the pilot.
The difference?
That's the question isn't it.
Non consentual PvP is not in itself a problem.
However There is no way of engaging in PvP with a disposable alt, no bounty hunters can be effective, no ganking the ganker, no hunt, no consequences for him.
In a wormhole or LS/null a barge can be a victim or bait or the start of a chain of consequences.
In HS it is simply mining victims
Cost of assets to gank vs reward ( loot or suffering)
HS Ganking as commonly occurs, is simply using other players for ones own benefit and adds NOTHING to the value of the game.
The only anti ganking defence is to increase the cost to destroy the target to make it uneconomic.
Ganking is fine.
Ganking without consequences is not.
Using disposable alts to avoid consequences should be considered an exploit. And treated as such.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
394
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 13:16:00 -
[294] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Using disposable alts to avoid consequences should be considered an exploit. And treated as such.
It is.
Paranoia never killed anyone. -áA complete absence of it has. |
Ramona McCandless
Epic Boo Bees
2030
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 13:24:00 -
[295] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
However There is no way of engaging in PvP with a disposable alt, no bounty hunters can be effective, no ganking the ganker, no hunt, no consequences for him.
Your solution seems to require retribution.
The common solution is to tank your proc so heavily that the amount of catas that would be required to shatter it would be unfeasibly large.
Every time a failed gank explodes from CONCORD because he cant get throught your shields, you win and he loses.
Its an inconvenience to him (he has to get back to where his catas are and he has to live with failing to gank), he's aggroed and you have Kill Rights.
Now, you may not consider kill rights to be a problem or an inconvenience but judging by the experiences of friends of mine, the gankers themselves often pay each other for KRs when they need them cleared, and so the original victim makes the money.
I mean, it is an inconvenience to launch with your next cata only to get killed by KR hunters, isnt it? And they do exist. Trust me.
*** Vote MTU For CSM *** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." --áPontianak Sythaeryn Omnis nomiom nom nom nomi |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
635
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 13:26:00 -
[296] - Quote
Kimmi Chan wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Using disposable alts to avoid consequences should be considered an exploit. And treated as such.
It is.
Possibly someone should remind CCP? They seem to have forgotten. Or at least do not seem to have their eye on the ball. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
635
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 13:30:00 -
[297] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:
However There is no way of engaging in PvP with a disposable alt, no bounty hunters can be effective, no ganking the ganker, no hunt, no consequences for him.
Your solution seems to require retribution. The common solution is to tank your proc so heavily that the amount of catas that would be required to shatter it would be unfeasibly large. Every time a failed gank explodes from CONCORD because he cant get throught your shields, you win and he loses. Its an inconvenience to him (he has to get back to where his catas are and he has to live with failing to gank), he's aggroed and you have Kill Rights. Now, you may not consider kill rights to be a problem or an inconvenience but judging by the experiences of friends of mine, the gankers themselves often pay each other for KRs when they need them cleared, and so the original victim makes the money. I mean, it is an inconvenience to launch with your next cata only to get killed by KR hunters, isnt it? And they do exist. Trust me.
Totally agree, if there are consequences to Ganking, I have absolutely no problem with it.
Using a trial account to create a ganker Or disposing of it at regular intervals to clear consequences is not PvP it is abusing the system. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
15511
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 13:48:00 -
[298] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Kimmi Chan wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Using disposable alts to avoid consequences should be considered an exploit. And treated as such.
It is. Possibly someone should remind CCP? They seem to have forgotten. Or at least do not seem to have their eye on the ball. CCP haven't forgotten, 99% of gank alts aren't disposable, most of them are either a dedicated specifically trained alt or repurposed surplus character on an existing account, or they have their own account.
Biomassing a character to avoid neg sec status is an exploit, gankers either live with being KoS in highsec because of their sec status, or they keep grinding on the character to keep their sec status acceptable to the faction navy. |
Ramona McCandless
Epic Boo Bees
2035
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 14:20:00 -
[299] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Totally agree, if there are consequences to Ganking, I have absolutely no problem with it.
I did actually point all this this out in my post, kill rights etc are excellent, just no use against all the disposable alts.
Try it this way:
Assuming I agree that its all "disposable alts" (which I dont but thats not the point)....
Surely if you consitantly tank properly, no umber of these disposable alts will get you and the ganking will stop. *** Vote MTU For CSM *** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." --áPontianak Sythaeryn Omnis nomiom nom nom nomi |
Percival Rose
J44 Capital Axiom Initiative
8
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 22:17:00 -
[300] - Quote
Dorian Wylde wrote:People need to get it through their heads that EVE is both, not one or the other. The mere fact that thousand of people engage in both is proof enough. If EVE were just pvp, I wouldn't be mining and ratting right now. I believe EVE is both a PvE and a PvP game. Non-consensual PvP, however, is unavoidable. I discovered that the hard way.
EVE is what you make of it, but needs both elements. It's such an amazing game because of that. De you know who's going to inherit New Eden? Arms dealers. Because everyone else is too busy killing each other. |
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