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Alyth Nerun
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER CODE.
52
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Posted - 2014.01.05 15:02:00 -
[61] - Quote
RAIN Arthie wrote:I can agree with that to a point. It's all about the risk vs reward. You should also take the effort vs reward into consideration.
In highsec you can just push a button and then go AFK for 1h. After that hour you come back and have a full cargo hold of free AFK ore for no effort. There is almost the full Lowsec ore available now with anomalies, you don't even have to scan them down anymore.
Compare that to lowsec, nullsec or wormsec where you have to be on your keyboard and actually play the game to not lose your mining ship. No matter how better the ore is there, it does not beat the zero effort of highsec mining. It is absolutely out of proportion.
The only fix for this so far is a player initiative called THE NEW ORDER launched by James 315 that tries to balance the game with ingame assets, because CCP is obviously changing the game in the complete opposite direction. And this only works because it is even too much effort for most of AFK miners to take the few steps it would take to completely negate the threat of getting bumped or blown up. It is even written in the CODE what you have to do...
I recommend you read the Manifesto and Manifest II of James 315 which discusses the problem we face here in great detail: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40762 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101626
You will then see that the problem is not the bumping of miners. The problem is mining in highsec and it's destructive influence on the game. You will also realize that James 315 and his agents not only try to save highsec, but also nullsec and the whole game itself.
For once this was not RP, I really think this is a serious problem. |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Turing Tested
1959
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 15:04:00 -
[62] - Quote
Alyth Nerun wrote:
You will then see that the problem is not the bumping of miners. The problem is mining in highsec and it's destructive influence on the game. You will also realize that James 315 and his agents not only try to save highsec, but also nullsec and the whole game itself.
For once this was not RP, I really think this is a serious problem.
I endorse this product and serivce.
I really do, Ive always seen the benefits in giving the lazy and stupid a hot poker up the ee-aw to keep them focused. *** Vote MTU For CSM *** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." --áPontianak Sythaeryn Omnis nomiom nom nom nomi |
Xavier Higdon
Wolfbane Hauler Inc
286
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 15:32:00 -
[63] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Ptraci wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:Right, dramiel locked you and patiently waited to be exploded by Mach. Cool story bro. Dramiel, meet heavy neut. Game over. Yeah but sacrificing a strip miner for a neut cuts in to his isk/hr. Why should he have to defend himself?
You realize this is a multiplayer game, right? A group of ships fit for specific roles, such as a mining ship or twenty and a PvP ship or twenty, is far more powerful AND profitable than a ship fit for mining, ratting and PvP. Don't be angry at him for utilizing game mechanics that so many others ignore. Wolfbane Hauler Inc Looking For Combat And Industrial Pilots |
RAIN Arthie
The Ascended Fleet Intrepid Crossing
179
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 15:54:00 -
[64] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:Alyth Nerun wrote:
You will then see that the problem is not the bumping of miners. The problem is mining in highsec and it's destructive influence on the game. You will also realize that James 315 and his agents not only try to save highsec, but also nullsec and the whole game itself.
For once this was not RP, I really think this is a serious problem.
I endorse this product and serivce. I really do, Ive always seen the benefits in giving the lazy and stupid a hot poker up the ee-aw to keep them focused.
I read what he posted and understand the botting problem. However miners need something worth sticking around in the seat for. I propose a mining slow cat built for big ore yeild. Lose that baby and you would rage quit. I wouldn't afk that thing. Instead we get crappy mining ships that are pretty dang old. CCP gives great upgrades to combat vessels yet we still get the shaft. |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Turing Tested
1962
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 15:55:00 -
[65] - Quote
Xavier Higdon wrote:
You realize this is a multiplayer game, right? A group of ships fit for specific roles, such as a mining ship or twenty and a PvP ship or twenty, is far more powerful AND profitable than a ship fit for mining, ratting and PvP. Don't be angry at him for utilizing game mechanics that so many others ignore.
But if done right, a swiss army fit is infinately more fun
I guess it depends on what you find fun, aff? *** Vote MTU For CSM *** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." --áPontianak Sythaeryn Omnis nomiom nom nom nomi |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Turing Tested
1962
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 16:04:00 -
[66] - Quote
RAIN Arthie wrote:
I read what he posted and understand the botting problem. However miners need something worth sticking around in the seat for. I propose a mining slow cat built for big ore yeild. Lose that baby and you would rage quit. I wouldn't afk that thing. Instead we get crappy mining ships that are pretty dang old. CCP gives great upgrades to combat vessels yet we still get the shaft.
I dont understand how you figure that. Barges got signifgantly buffed recently in terms of tank and ore bay.
*** Vote MTU For CSM *** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." --áPontianak Sythaeryn Omnis nomiom nom nom nomi |
RAIN Arthie
The Ascended Fleet Intrepid Crossing
179
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 16:20:00 -
[67] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:RAIN Arthie wrote:
I read what he posted and understand the botting problem. However miners need something worth sticking around in the seat for. I propose a mining slow cat built for big ore yeild. Lose that baby and you would rage quit. I wouldn't afk that thing. Instead we get crappy mining ships that are pretty dang old. CCP gives great upgrades to combat vessels yet we still get the shaft.
I dont understand how you figure that. Barges got signifgantly buffed recently in terms of tank and ore bay.
Well then maybe I may not be the only one to talk to about whats going on so I invite anyone to, without naming names" explain their reasons to WANTING to bot. |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Turing Tested
1964
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 16:24:00 -
[68] - Quote
RAIN Arthie wrote:
Well then maybe I may not be the only one to talk to about whats going on so I invite anyone to, without naming names" explain their reasons to WANTING to bot.
Sorry? Im afraid I can't parse that line. *** Vote MTU For CSM *** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." --áPontianak Sythaeryn Omnis nomiom nom nom nomi |
RAIN Arthie
The Ascended Fleet Intrepid Crossing
179
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 16:27:00 -
[69] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:RAIN Arthie wrote:
Well then maybe I may not be the only one to talk to about whats going on so I invite anyone to, without naming names" explain their reasons to WANTING to bot.
Sorry? Im afraid I can't parse that line.
Better question: other than shooting miners what can CCP do to better remedy the botting problem? Other than make miners out of play. |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Turing Tested
1964
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 16:29:00 -
[70] - Quote
RAIN Arthie wrote: Better question: other than shooting miners what can CCP do to better remedy the botting problem? Other than make miners out of play.
What botting problem?
AFKing and lazymindedness is the problem. If you see a bot, report it. *** Vote MTU For CSM *** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." --áPontianak Sythaeryn Omnis nomiom nom nom nomi |
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
15467
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 16:43:00 -
[71] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:RAIN Arthie wrote: Better question: other than shooting miners what can CCP do to better remedy the botting problem? Other than make miners out of play.
What botting problem? AFKing and lazymindedness is the problem. If you see a bot, kill it, then report it. FTFY
|
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Turing Tested
1964
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 16:45:00 -
[72] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote: What botting problem?
AFKing and lazymindedness is the problem. If you see a bot, kill it, then report it.
FTFY [/quote]
You cant kill a disease
Only cure it
*** Vote MTU For CSM *** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." --áPontianak Sythaeryn Omnis nomiom nom nom nomi |
Alyth Nerun
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER CODE.
55
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 17:30:00 -
[73] - Quote
RAIN Arthie wrote: I read what he posted and understand the botting problem. However miners need something worth sticking around in the seat for. I propose a mining slow cat built for big ore yeild. Lose that baby and you would rage quit. I wouldn't afk that thing. Instead we get crappy mining ships that are pretty dang old. CCP gives great upgrades to combat vessels yet we still get the shaft.
I don't talk about bots, I talk about the miners. They just try to be like bots because they try to automate every step as much as possible to maximize the time they can be AFK doing something other than playing EVE.
I know I only repeat what James 315 wrote two years ago.
And so far CCP seams to even support that AFK play stile. There is no other explanation for the barge buff that increased the ore hold of certain ships so much that you really can AFK for an hour. Cooperation in mining fleets is now completely obsolete. For the last few years CCP made the problem even worse by isolating the miners even more from the sandbox.
The only fix I see for this is to remove the current mining mechanic and replace it with something that can't easily be automated, profits greatly from cooperation and needs constant attention of the pilot mining the ore. I have no suggestions on how this should be done, I am not a game designer.
Meanwhile CCP's own data shows them that it is those isolated players that never find their way into the sandbox that drop out of the game the most (see resent CSM minutes). Now why would anyone be surprised that a "player" who essentially plays the most boring kind of "profession" in all of games, without a goal and in total isolation, that most of this people leave the game after a few months? I really don't know.
The bumping and ganking of this miners actually draws them out of their isolation into the sandbox. We force them to interact with us and I strongly believe that this has a healthy effect on their perception of the game.
They may insult us, petition us and wish us death in RL because we trow them into the cold water. But as soon as I log and my neutral alt remains in the system, I hear how excited they are about chasing me from belt to belt in an effort to stand up to our oppression. How glad they are that finally something happened, even if they lost a ship or got bumped out of the belt. Some will find their way out of their monotony this way. They occasionally write me and say thank you for the wake up call and that they will move on from their isolation to experience the sandbox. |
Thatt Guy
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
55
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 17:33:00 -
[74] - Quote
How to fix miner bumping:
Remove all "bumping" from game. It's a BS, exploitive mechanic anyway. |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Turing Tested
1970
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 17:35:00 -
[75] - Quote
"Bot Aspirant Behaviour" doesn't mean "You might be a bot so Ill have to bump/gank you to find out", it means that you are actually playing like a bot.
Botting isnt the problem.
Human beings acting like bots is a symptom of the problem.
The problem is idleness.
And you know what they say about idleness. *** Vote MTU For CSM *** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." --áPontianak Sythaeryn Omnis nomiom nom nom nomi |
Xavier Higdon
Wolfbane Hauler Inc
286
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 17:40:00 -
[76] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:Xavier Higdon wrote:
You realize this is a multiplayer game, right? A group of ships fit for specific roles, such as a mining ship or twenty and a PvP ship or twenty, is far more powerful AND profitable than a ship fit for mining, ratting and PvP. Don't be angry at him for utilizing game mechanics that so many others ignore.
But if done right, a swiss army fit is infinately more fun I guess it depends on what you find fun, aff?
If fun for you is avoiding interaction in an MMO, then kneecapping yourself is a great idea. If, however, you find it fun to have social interactions in a social game, I suggest finding others that are willing to support you. I see no reason, or reward, to "go it alone" when having friends and allies will make your time and energy more profitable. It's often the argument of certain people that miners MUST defend themselves, but I find that to be just a projection of their opinion that the only meaningful playstyle in EvE is pure PvP. If, as an industrialist, you can find people willing to play as a team, you'll mine more ore, build more things and make more ISK. Why should he instead reduce his income and ability to help that group by refusing the support offered? What will he gain? Wolfbane Hauler Inc Looking For Combat And Industrial Pilots |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Turing Tested
1971
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 17:41:00 -
[77] - Quote
Xavier Higdon wrote: If fun for you is avoiding interaction in an MMO, then kneecapping yourself is a great idea.
Confirmed, hunting people in Null in a multi-fit Widow is totally avoiding social interactions.
As is WH diving in a scan-and-retrieve Legion.
*** Vote MTU For CSM *** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." --áPontianak Sythaeryn Omnis nomiom nom nom nomi |
RAIN Arthie
The Ascended Fleet Intrepid Crossing
181
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 17:42:00 -
[78] - Quote
Alyth Nerun wrote:RAIN Arthie wrote: I read what he posted and understand the botting problem. However miners need something worth sticking around in the seat for. I propose a mining slow cat built for big ore yeild. Lose that baby and you would rage quit. I wouldn't afk that thing. Instead we get crappy mining ships that are pretty dang old. CCP gives great upgrades to combat vessels yet we still get the shaft.
I don't talk about bots, I talk about the miners. They just try to be like bots because they try to automate every step as much as possible to maximize the time they can be AFK doing something other than playing EVE. I know I only repeat what James 315 wrote two years ago. And so far CCP seams to even support that AFK play stile. There is no other explanation for the barge buff that increased the ore hold of certain ships so much that you really can AFK for an hour. Cooperation in mining fleets is now completely obsolete. For the last few years CCP made the problem even worse by isolating the miners even more from the sandbox. The only fix I see for this is to remove the current mining mechanic and replace it with something that can't easily be automated, profits greatly from cooperation and needs constant attention of the pilot mining the ore. I have no suggestions on how this should be done, I am not a game designer. Meanwhile CCP's own data shows them that it is those isolated players that never find their way into the sandbox that drop out of the game the most (see resent CSM minutes). Now why would anyone be surprised that a "player" who essentially plays the most boring kind of "profession" in all of games, without a goal and in total isolation, that most of this people leave the game after a few months? I really don't know. The bumping and ganking of this miners actually draws them out of their isolation into the sandbox. We force them to interact with us and I strongly believe that this has a healthy effect on their perception of the game. They may insult us, petition us and wish us death in RL because we trow them into the cold water. But as soon as I log and my neutral alt remains in the system, I hear how excited they are about chasing me from belt to belt in an effort to stand up to our oppression. How glad they are that finally something happened, even if they lost a ship or got bumped out of the belt. Some will find their way out of their monotony this way. They occasionally write me and say thank you for the wake up call and that they will move on from their isolation to experience the sandbox.
So anti social behavior is the problem? |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Turing Tested
1973
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 17:46:00 -
[79] - Quote
RAIN Arthie wrote: So anti social behavior is the problem?
Its more of another symptom
Bumpery and gankery are fairly anti-social to their victims and the industrial player base as well dont forget.
While these play modes are unlikely to stop, techniques are already being used by those who are actively at the whell which have reduced the former to almost nil and the latter substantially.
The problem is that you have a game where interaction with others is often forced on you. That is one of the continual facts of EvE.
You are playing when you are actively working to stop it affecting you.
Devising a way to AFK mine without fear would technically also be part of that paradigm, but its much more practical to stay awake at the wheel *** Vote MTU For CSM *** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." --áPontianak Sythaeryn Omnis nomiom nom nom nomi |
RAIN Arthie
The Ascended Fleet Intrepid Crossing
181
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 17:52:00 -
[80] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:RAIN Arthie wrote: So anti social behavior is the problem?
Its more of another symptom Bumpery and gankery are fairly anti-social to their victims and the industrial player base as well dont forget. While these play modes are unlikely to stop, techniques are already being used by those who are actively at the whell which have reduced the former to almost nil and the latter substantially. The problem is that you have a game where interaction with others is often forced on you. That is one of the continual facts of EvE. You are playing when you are actively working to stop it affecting you. Devising a way to AFK mine without fear would technically also be part of that paradigm, but its much more practical to stay awake at the wheel
I'm sorry I'm a pretty simple person. I don't understand how this effects me. |
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Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Turing Tested
1976
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 18:05:00 -
[81] - Quote
RAIN Arthie wrote:
I'm sorry I'm a pretty simple person. I don't understand how this effects me.
If you arent AFK mining and you arent bumping or ganking then it doesnt, not directly.
Except in regards to the fact that your thread exists because you feel that there are many miners yearnign to be free from the spectre of ganks and so you offered them a solution. *** Vote MTU For CSM *** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." --áPontianak Sythaeryn Omnis nomiom nom nom nomi |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6097
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 18:54:00 -
[82] - Quote
Alyth Nerun wrote:They may insult us, petition us and wish us death in RL because we trow them into the cold water. But as soon as I log and my neutral alt remains in the system, I hear how excited they are about chasing me from belt to belt in an effort to stand up to our oppression. How glad they are that finally something happened, even if they lost a ship or got bumped out of the belt. Some will find their way out of their monotony this way. They occasionally write me and say thank you for the wake up call and that they will move on from their isolation to experience the sandbox. Now you're just ... that's a bit of a stretch isn't it ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers. |
Haedonism Bot
Revolutionary Front
716
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 19:29:00 -
[83] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:
The problem is idleness.
And you know what they say about idleness.
Idleness leads to ************. ************ makes you go blind. Bump a miner today and save him from going blind. Someday he will thank you. everevolutionaryfront.blogspot.com |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2238
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 20:07:00 -
[84] - Quote
Johan Civire wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:This is not a fix.
I do applaud you, however, for GTFO of highsec. Most will not even take that simple step to avoid the bumping cowards. Why do he need to get off highsec? you on drugs or what? stop ******* trolling you moron. And answer his question/frustration.
Everyone needs to 'get off highsec.'
As for drugs, you should probably get off whatever it is you're on that makes you post like that. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
Malcolm Shinhwa
Bad Touches
992
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 20:45:00 -
[85] - Quote
Decian Cor wrote:Slightly off topic, but would an assault frigate be able to destroy something like say, your average renter in a procurer?
I've killed a proc in an af before. You can do it, it just takes for-freakin-ever if they have tanked it. I know violence isn't the answer. I got it wrong on purpose. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6098
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 21:05:00 -
[86] - Quote
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:Decian Cor wrote:Slightly off topic, but would an assault frigate be able to destroy something like say, your average renter in a procurer? I've killed a proc in an af before. You can do it, it just takes for-freakin-ever if they have tanked it. And no one came to help? How shameful. ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers. |
Malcolm Shinhwa
Bad Touches
992
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 21:37:00 -
[87] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:Decian Cor wrote:Slightly off topic, but would an assault frigate be able to destroy something like say, your average renter in a procurer? I've killed a proc in an af before. You can do it, it just takes for-freakin-ever if they have tanked it. And no one came to help? How shameful.
In all fairness, it was a war target... mining alone... almost no one ever comes to help. I know violence isn't the answer. I got it wrong on purpose. |
Alyth Nerun
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER CODE.
59
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 21:54:00 -
[88] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Alyth Nerun wrote:They may insult us, petition us and wish us death in RL because we trow them into the cold water. But as soon as I log and my neutral alt remains in the system, I hear how excited they are about chasing me from belt to belt in an effort to stand up to our oppression. How glad they are that finally something happened, even if they lost a ship or got bumped out of the belt. Some will find their way out of their monotony this way. They occasionally write me and say thank you for the wake up call and that they will move on from their isolation to experience the sandbox. Now you're just ... that's a bit of a stretch isn't it Shhhhh, I just try to get that IW Scorp.. |
RAIN Arthie
The Ascended Fleet Intrepid Crossing
186
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 15:56:00 -
[89] - Quote
If your looking for a home try my corp. I advertise it because we are legit about our players. We pay attention and give people the proper attention and advice they need to succeed. If you look at my resume I have been AROUND. They treat me well and I love it. |
Ramona McCandless
Epic Boo Bees
2000
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 16:00:00 -
[90] - Quote
RAIN Arthie wrote:If your looking for a home try my corp. I advertise it because we are legit about our players. We pay attention and give people the proper attention and advice they need to succeed. If you look at my resume I have been AROUND. They treat me well and I love it.
Would you consider someone who was wanting to reform her naughty ways? *** Vote MTU For CSM *** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." --áPontianak Sythaeryn Omnis nomiom nom nom nomi |
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