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Ephemeron
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Posted - 2006.03.20 13:56:00 -
[61]
I lost dozen of dominixes in PvP and got hundreds of kills with them (CCP can check my mailbox), so my words should have some weight.
Dominix is a good ship, for PvP and PvE. I don't think it needs any sort of boosting right now. Whether it's overpowered or not is another question, but definitely doesn't need a boost.
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Ab Initio
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Posted - 2006.03.20 21:50:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Ab Initio on 20/03/2006 21:56:16 Gierling - You seem to be answering all the people making comments without any kind of numbers to back it up, but completely ignoring the posts that give numbers to backup what is being said.. (pure observation from someone that read the thread from start to finish in one go).
You have written for example that you consider the Raven to be fine at long range, but not the Domi. Only a couple of lines up someone does the maths to show that the Domi does more damage at that range, and that the damage is instant? Others do the maths to show that the Domi does roughly 85% of the damage of the Megathron (which is apparently excellent), and yet the Domi is still considered poor?
Then theres the fact that your comparing Tier 1 and 2 BS, and have a problem with the fact that the Dom cant do both short range and long range better than a 100mill + tier 2 BS?
This is an interesting thread, I'd just like to see some replies to the more informed posters in it, because they are making very good points that appear to be skipped over.
AB.
EDIT: Btw.. Im completely Gallente spec, fly primarily Domi and Megathron in all combat, and find the thought of more PG on the Dom scary. The Dom is one of the best close range ships in game, and is only 15% behind the Megathron in long range.. Add to that the fact that it has its drones as defence for anything that gets close and... Well.. You get it ;)
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.21 05:50:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Gierling on 21/03/2006 05:50:50 Clarification, my argument is that the Raven is as good at long range as it is at short range (from a purely DPS standpoint, Missilles still go too slow and I'll be the first to admit that).
And Farjung has already shown that the Mega does about 17% more damage at long range. It is doubtful that the Domi has a 17% advantage at short range.
My rough calculations (Assuming absolutely perfect skills) give a ceiling of around 980 DPS for a Domi with 5 Ogre II's and 6 nuetron blaster II's firing void, The Mega does about 960 DPS with 5 Ogre II's, 7 Nuetron II's with void, and one good named siege launcher.
I'm not 100% on those numbers, however I used the same approach so the relation is still valid.
From a pure DPS standpoint Mega has 17% advantage at long range, adn the Domi trades off for a whopping 2% advantage at short range.
However that is not considering funny things like drone flight time (in the megas favor), Fitting (in the Megas Favor), Missille skills (somewhat in the Megas favor).
The Domi makes a very poor trade off, that is the crux of my argument (the Domi and the phoon, phoon needs love too). This tradeoff is esxacerbated by the fact that Battleship combat is inherently biased towards the ranges where the Domi and the phoon sacrificed the most.
For your information I'm a Gallente spec'd pilot as well with some PVP experience and experience in both ships. I actually have more kills in the domi by a small margin, however my ponderings on the matter have left me convinced that I would have done just as well in every situation where I was flying the Domi if I were flying the Mega(which believe it or not I actually prefer), however nearly all the times I was flying a Mega it would have been a great detriment had I been flying a Domi instead... and that makes me sad.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2006.03.21 06:08:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 21/03/2006 06:10:22 If you want Domi at 120km range - Fit 4 Drone Link Augmentors and 2 or 3 Drone Navigation Computers and voila - your Berserkers travel about 2km/sec or more, up to 140 km range. Here you got your long range, it's about as good as Raven with torps.
P.S. Still looks like another "nerf domi" thread to me... cos if they give to rails, they take from drones.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2006.03.21 06:40:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Meridius on 21/03/2006 06:40:52 It's a drone ship ffs.
It's not meant to fit a rack of railguns or blasters.
It doesn't need more grid.
(more grid would mean the ability to fit even more NOS anyway, which is a big no no in this case) _ __
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.21 18:37:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Gierling on 21/03/2006 18:46:56 Edited by: Gierling on 21/03/2006 18:39:23 No, more grid would mean the ability ot actually use your second bonus.
The Megathron has more grid and we do not see it often setup as vamp setups.
My issue here is the fact that you guys are going "Its a drone ship, its uber at short range, so that balances out its anemic long range ability" Without really realizing that its really NOT that uber at short range... its not significantly more u ber then the Mega. Actually by my math its only about 2% better, which is marginal if anything and its hard to call that "better" at all. And the trade off is a rather sizeably penalty at the ranges that battleships need to operate at.
If you want to keep its flavour as a drone ship, you could fix sentry drones (They are using the little shortcut the devs made for normal drones to ensure they stick mostly in control range). And that would take the edge off, you'd still have less range then the mega but at least your in the territory where you get to play.
Edited to add, Named drone mods and tech II drone mods would go a long way towards being helpful too. Just have Gallente Agents give them as mission rewards.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Ab Initio
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Posted - 2006.03.21 19:54:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Gierling
My issue here is the fact that you guys are going "Its a drone ship, its uber at short range, so that balances out its anemic long range ability" Without really realizing that its really NOT that uber at short range... its not significantly more u ber then the Mega. Actually by my math its only about 2% better, which is marginal if anything and its hard to call that "better" at all. And the trade off is a rather sizeably penalty at the ranges that battleships need to operate at.
One thing you need to consider is that when people say it is one of the best close range ships, it isn't all about dps. The dom is an excellent close range ship for a number of reasons:
1. Its ability to tank. 2. A primary weapons system not reliant on any ship slots. 3. The fact that we are spoiled with setup options because of slot lay out.
More dps != better close range ship. In a fight between my 1300dps Neutron Blasterthron, and an ECM & Nos dom.. I would put my money on the dom. Its like comparing a Raven and scorp, and saying that the scorp needs to be upgraded beacause its dps isn't as good.
As for your other points, I think they've allready been covered previously so I won't go through them again.
I love both ships, I fly both regularly.. But for close range, my choice of the Megathron is largely an aesthetic one. I don't think personally theres a scarier sight than having a Megathron MWDing towards you, the dom just has people laughing... Till hey pop :)
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Blind Man
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Posted - 2006.03.21 20:11:00 -
[68]
domi is already overpowered especially with jammers..... it is a brawler and made for close range as is the phoon (or tries to)
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.22 06:02:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Ab Initio
1. Its ability to tank. 2. A primary weapons system not reliant on any ship slots. 3. The fact that we are spoiled with setup options because of slot lay out.
1: The Domi has the same low slot layout, less cap, less cap recharge and poorer fitting. 2: The Mega has access to the same weapons, and only does about 160 less DPS with them, whilst being able to fit the same exact setup with two extra nuetron blasters, doing about 85 DPS each, for a negligable difference. 3: One more medslot, two less highs and much less fitting to go with.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Ephemeron
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Posted - 2006.03.22 06:20:00 -
[70]
I don't understand why you still argue over domi.
It can kill stuff very well, I have done it, I proved it can be done. What's there to argue about?
Some ships may be better than the domi, but that doesn't change the fact that the domi can get kills and do it well.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.22 06:40:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Gierling on 22/03/2006 06:40:54 It can kill well, just not as well as other ships.
Frankly it is a fun and unique ship with little ability to really leverage that uniqueness.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2006.03.22 08:28:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Gierling Edited by: Gierling on 21/03/2006 18:46:56 Edited by: Gierling on 21/03/2006 18:39:23 No, more grid would mean the ability ot actually use your second bonus.
The Megathron has more grid and we do not see it often setup as vamp setups.
You don't see that because maybe the Dominix has a slot layout ideal for vamping? 5 mids, 7 lows and much more damage/flexibility through drones. _ __
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.03.22 09:53:00 -
[73]
Gierling, please stop and consider. That bonus might be a sour point for you, but the thing is game balance is much more important. The argument of "it's a drone ship" might be lacking, but that is only because it only scratches on the issue - the Dominix as it is right now is good and balanced compared to the other ships. It's an absolute powerhouse in small scale conflicts.
You're issue with the Dominix not being able to do long range well enough has several flaws. The first being that Gallente naval doctrine, although being RP it is also what the devs design around, states "drones and short range". More than just the fluff-reason, the Dominix actually has a powerful sub-50km bonus which would become more or less useless when it fits for fleet, and you justify these changes by saying it's got a bonus that's not used?
Even though it is not very likely to have the Dominix changed, I think you are more likely to have support if you ask for the Dominix to get a bonus change and have the turret damage bonus removed in favour of something which would aid the Dominix. Such a bonus would have to be selected with care, however. I'll list a few examples, though I must say that I haven't considered balance implications too closely. +5% Dampener effectiveness¦ +10% drone velocity¦ +7.5% armour repair amount¦ +5% drone electronics system effectiveness¦ (Bonus amounts chosen from other ships' examples)
Some discussion below. ¦ - This is balanced by the fact that the Dominix only has 5 mid slots, however a change to this would make the Dominix more powerful than it currently is. ¦ - This bonus is mostly superficial. A change to this would make the Dominix less powerful. ¦ - This bonus would put the Dominix up as the strongest tanking battleship. It struggles to run two large armour repairers, but nevertheless a change such as this would greatly increase the Dominix' power (mostly because it is highly compatible with all contemporary builds) ¦ - This implies all non-damage drones. Perhaps my favourite, since it really puts the Dominix down as THE drone carrier and gives it the ability to outclass every other ship when it comes to drones, regardless of drone used, while still not overpowering the Dominix since it offers more options (you are still limited to 5 drones, and this is an EITHER-OR bonus, not an AND bonus... so to speak)
Originally by: KilROCK
Originally by: Arkanor Gallente missileboat might be cool.
Pod yourself till you got no skills.[ |
Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.22 13:34:00 -
[74]
IMHO if we're going to go the bonus change route (which is actually one way to go).
I'd say 10% (or more it would be a new bonus subject to balancing) drone control radius per level would be best.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Ranger 1
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Posted - 2006.03.22 14:35:00 -
[75]
If you want to participate in fleet battles fit the Control Range extending modules in your high's instead of Nos's. 120km control range boost, which would be 180km drone control range max. Send in waves of normal drones, or get clever with your Sentry drones.
I'm sorry, but if you think the Domi is limited or sub par in any way... Patch day always brings out the same 2 types of people. 1: "I'm an IT expert in RL, and they have done this all wrong" type. 2: "I'm a paying customer, fix it immediately or I quit" type. |
Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.22 18:23:00 -
[76]
Drones don't typically work to well in fleet battles due to thier travel time, However I supposse you could probably Get berserkers going about as fast as cruisemissilles form a raven now, that is an interesting Idea but I'm not sure how feasible it is. Especially considering how drone nav mod's tend to screw up the drones tracking badly.
I would be perfectly comfortable with using Sentry drones if they could fire outside of your control range like they were intended to. Its just a bit of a programming shortcut to make sure that your drones that can move stay inside of your drone control range. The devs made it so that drones can't be made to attack anything outside of that range, that code was carried over for sentry drones even though it shouldn't have. If they fixed it so that you ONLY had to devote all of your midslots to drone tracking Comps then the Domi would be a fine albeit somewhat difficult to use ship in a fleet fight.
But devoting all your highs to control range mods and all your mids to tracking mods leaves you BADLY gimped.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Isonkon Serikain
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Posted - 2006.03.22 18:38:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Gierling Edited by: Gierling on 18/03/2006 03:27:54 ITs quite absurd that you need two RCU II's and a third grid mod AND perfect fitting skills to fit a full rack of its largest guns when completely fitted for offence.
If the Domi could fit a rack of its best guns with good skills and one RCU, it wouldn't terribly unbalance the ship at all, we might actually see the ship USING guns and not NOS setups. NOS Setups aren't used becasue they are the PWN, they are used cus the poor Domi got nothin else.
me sheds a tear for all the disenfranchised dominix pilots out there... yeah buddy, I know... its rough flying a domi these days... Ison's notches |
Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.22 19:25:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Gierling on 22/03/2006 19:27:06
Originally by: Isonkon Serikain
me sheds a tear for all the disenfranchised dominix pilots out there... yeah buddy, I know... its rough flying a domi these days...
Post an argument or don't post at all.
I'm more then willing to be convinced otherwise however I haven't seen anything to indicate that there is ANYTHING the Domi does that the Mega can't do equally as well or better.
This also applies to the poor poor phoon.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.23 08:02:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Gierling on 23/03/2006 08:03:57 Seeing as how no one has posted on this thread since my last post, I DECLARE VICTORY!
I await the eventual boost the Domi has been proven to deserve.
Although in all seriousness, post some of your Domi setups and we can look at how they compare to the Mega.
And I think I'll restate that the original point of this thread was that SISI isn't up and we can't test these proposed changes.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2006.03.23 13:40:00 -
[80]
The Domi does not need a boost. Perhaps its due an alteration. Reduce its short range a bit and increase its long range. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
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Ishan Shade
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Posted - 2006.03.23 13:48:00 -
[81]
Quote: If its a droneship then give us drones that are effective at 100k out of the box
2 words:
Sentry Drones.
I know they can't hit at 150km, but with good skills you can shoot a hell of a long way with them.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.23 17:29:00 -
[82]
to hit over 100k with sentries you need several Drone tracking comps (Which is perfectly acceptable), and several drone control range mods because the sentries will not activate on somethin outside of your control range.
If they fixed that little error and released named and tech II drone tracking mods then the domi would be a fine alternative.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Malena
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Posted - 2006.03.23 17:39:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Nyphur
If you are trying to snipe with a ship that's bad at sniping, you need to rethink your strategy, not get your ship boosted.
A-fricking-men.
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Cummilla
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Posted - 2006.03.23 17:40:00 -
[84]
hey guys, take it easy on gierling, he is really THE only cool person in ASCN.
Ok, on topic though, if the domi gets more grid, can the Navy MEga get like 20 more cpu like the CNR does? please? So it can utilize that low slot!
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.23 18:27:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Cummilla hey guys, take it easy on gierling, he is really THE only cool person in ASCN.
Odd my bs meter must be broken, because its currently being pegged by a statement which is obviously so totally true. Seriously theres tons of cool folk in ASCN and from how often I get ripped on in teamspeak I highly doubt that I am the coolest. However thanks for the compliment that made me smile.
Back to the Domi, two statements first off 100k isn't sniper range. Sniping is a 200k business. 100-130k is a pretty standard range where battleships need to be effective at.
Second off Idon't think that the solution necessarily has to be a grid increase, although that would be helpful. I'm actually starting to like the "Remove the targetting limitation on sentry drones and release named and T2 drone tracking comps" alternative a lot more. Its a little excessive to ask for a module to be paired with another module (drone tracking comps and range augments) to actually be useable.
Can we agree on that?
Frankly I still think 1750 more base grid would be the easiest way to solve the problem (as in the least amount of mucking around with the database). I still can't imagine a setup that would be obscenely overpowered with that much extra grid. (If you can think of one please do post it though).
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Zysco
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Posted - 2006.03.23 19:50:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Zysco on 23/03/2006 19:52:12 Can we start a petition that ASCN members aren't allowed to post threads on the ships and mods forums?
I mean not only are you ignoring every argument that the domi, while it "sucks" at sniping, is only a bit worse than a mega (and still better than a raven), but you obviously have no idea on how to fit or fly a domi, since all you do is blob.
Take away the domi's damage bonus? LOL is all I have to say to that.
callon > I don't like traveling much, i think its cause my father used to beat me with a globe.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=300438New vid: "we're back |
Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.23 19:59:00 -
[87]
I'd say of my pvp experience at most 5% is blob warfare.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Zysco
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Posted - 2006.03.23 20:01:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Zysco on 23/03/2006 20:05:37
Originally by: Gierling I'd say of my pvp experience at most 5% is blob warfare.
Then why is this entire thread about "ohnoes domi cant snipe as good as a mega"?
Sniping = blob, or you suck too much to fight at close range.
Eve isnt about pure dps. If it was no one would ever fly minmatar ships.
callon > I don't like traveling much, i think its cause my father used to beat me with a globe.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=300438New vid: "we're back |
Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.23 20:07:00 -
[89]
Cus about 35% is in a battleship and those fights are often at 100k.
Unless you want to call 15 ships a blob.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Zysco
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Posted - 2006.03.23 20:27:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Gierling Cus about 35% is in a battleship and those fights are often at 100k.
Unless you want to call 15 ships a blob.
I feel sad for you.
callon > I don't like traveling much, i think its cause my father used to beat me with a globe.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=300438New vid: "we're back |
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