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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8316
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 22:06:00 -
[601] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:HS does not have enough slots. I know because I keep running out of them Because nullsec players are using them.
Vincent Athena wrote:As for risk, remember the OP asked what CCP was going to do. CCP controls game mechanics. Risk is not an inherent game mechanic, its a property produced by emergent behavior of the players. If the players decided to stop shooting in Null it would be totally risk free for industry without CCP doing a thing. Well no, risk is a byproduct of game mechanics. The more freedom players have to shoot each other and destroy or conquer assets (a direct result of game mechanics), the more risk there is. My EVE Videos |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA
215
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 22:14:00 -
[602] - Quote
Given you ignored most of my post, I'll ignore most of yours.
Prince Kobol wrote:Unless you are war decced you can travel with little risk again when collecting your PI (if in HS) or mining your minerals or transporting your goods.
Moving goods around in highsec is considerably more risky than moving it around in lowsec/nullsec. Freighters are slow as hell, and vulnerable. There is a pretty low ceiling of how much stuff you can haul in one load.
Prince KobolIf wrote: you can always pay somebody like Red Frog to haul your stuff for you.
Costs 500k/jump, takes them a good 12 - 36 hours to haul it for you, and there is a strict limit of 1 billion collateral -- specifically because of the risk inherent in hauling stuff around in highsec. They're a good service, but it's not exactly a fast/efficient way to move a lot of goods. To give you an idea of the dangers of hauling in highsec -- Red Frog members still get suicide ganked even when they follow their own rules of 1b max collat.
Contrast it to lowsec/nullsec, where you can comfortably load up a jump freighter with 5b+ in goods and travel what amounts to infinitely faster than a freighter, and infinitely safer. |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA
215
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 22:20:00 -
[603] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:the fact that the main trade hubs are in highsec has nothing to do with why nullsec industry is terrible
If you honestly believe this, then you are so incredibly ignorant of basic economics and the way industry works in EVE that you really shouldn't be talking at all about this subject.
Industry and trade are inherently linked. You can't talk about one without also talking about the other.
It's like trying to talk about the speed of a car - but refusing to discuss the tires. |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
450
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 23:13:00 -
[604] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:The fact that the main trade hubs are in highsec has nothing to do with why nullsec industry is terrible.
Nothing?
I'm going to quote you on that too, James.
The most customers, best prices, and greatest overall availability of merchandise (one-stop shopping) will continue to be found in a centralized, safe location regardless of how many slots are allocated to null. As long as high sec exists it will continue to translate into more opportunities and thus better gameplay for industrious folk.
(On something of a side note, I wonder how the economy would respond if say for 6-months to a year there was a sustained pvp atmosphere maintained in the existing 6 hubs. What would emerge then? Where would people go? Could new mini-hubs be spontaneously generated? A rapid dispersal of industry? In other words, to improve their own industry, instead of begging for resource reallocation, what would happen if null sec declared war on high sec's economy?)
Let's not be disengenuous. I know the average intellect present in GD has dropped (which I still hope against hope is because the rational people are now writing in F&I or on devblogs and haven't left entirely) but comeon, you guys don't just want more slots because that won't cut it. That's just the first step in an incremental process. You're going to want more of everything. All of the high sec ores in greater quantities, more slots, perfect refining - everything - 100% self-sufficiency - or it will continue to be easier to transport high-end minerals to high-sec than low-end minerals to null.
The inherent risk of living in low/null sec space makes it substandard to high sec for industry. You don't build an automobile plant in a warzone. You cannot remove this risk entirely (nor would you want to) so you cannot equalize the costs with a comparable system in a relatively safe area just by buffing your slot numbers.
With high sec already having perfect refine rates available with a little fealty and a superior slot system (because those systems exist as part of thousand-year old, long-established EMPIRE space,) from my pov, all you guys can hope for is that CCP will nerf high sec into the ground, making it cost-prohibitive to engage in high sec industry. You need high sec's complete annihilation, which maybe is what Rubicon is slowly leading us toward. I don't know.
But that's the only way null becomes a more attractive choice - no matter how much booty it receives. Will fundamentally altering the nature of high sec matter to CCP's profit margin? If you guys get your way, we may well find out. It just seems to me that the first step to getting what you're asking for would be to stop begging and declare war on high-sec's economy and attempt to annihilate it themselves. Spike the prices of everything and destroy the hubs. Disincentivize it manually. Then, a year from now, check back to see if this circular argument has changed shape.
Imo, it isn't in the best interest of the game to give any sec space everything it needs so I can't support that. You guys are going to have to visit high sec sometime and not just to gank miners. Sec interdependency is necessary and by design.
Balancing of resources between secs should have less to do with making sense (or enriching null sec publords) and more to do with facilitating pgc and maximizing player retention - even if foiling the megalomanical dreams of a few people in null is an unintended secondary effect.
But with enough gumption, I suspect you could effect change that would help mitigate your issues. I'm less sure if it can be done on a large enough scale to matter - which is why I recommended long-term engagements at the hubs.
It's a sandbox, isn't it? You've got a problem. Time to kick some sand.
imo.
YK "High-five, fist bump, explode, implode, fist bump again, under-five, up-five, chest-bump...ohhhhh....call 911!"
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8316
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 23:20:00 -
[605] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:the fact that the main trade hubs are in highsec has nothing to do with why nullsec industry is terrible If you honestly believe this, then you are so incredibly ignorant of basic economics and the way industry works in EVE that you really shouldn't be talking at all about this subject. Industry and trade are inherently linked. You can't talk about one without also talking about the other. It's like trying to talk about the speed of a car - but refusing to discuss the tires. No, because we can't even produce for our own needs, and there's no reason to anyway because highsec industry is cheaper and easier. That has nothing to do with trade and everything to do with production capabilities. My EVE Videos |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8316
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 23:23:00 -
[606] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:The fact that the main trade hubs are in highsec has nothing to do with why nullsec industry is terrible. Nothing? I'm going to quote you on that too, James. The most customers, best prices, and greatest overall availability of merchandise (one-stop shopping) will continue to be found in a centralized, safe location regardless of how many slots are allocated to null. So what? This has nothing to do with industry. We don't need customers and trade to feed our war machine, we need materials and production. My EVE Videos |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
2085
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 23:24:00 -
[607] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:the fact that the main trade hubs are in highsec has nothing to do with why nullsec industry is terrible If you honestly believe this, then you are so incredibly ignorant of basic economics and the way industry works in EVE that you really shouldn't be talking at all about this subject. Industry and trade are inherently linked. You can't talk about one without also talking about the other. It's like trying to talk about the speed of a car - but refusing to discuss the tires.
You're talking about the trade hubs as though they're something set in stone, like they don't fluctuate or anything.
Meanwhile, Rens is slowly being eaten away by Hek, and only a few people are really noticing.
Hell, Yulai used to be a trade hub. It used to be THE trade hub. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA
215
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 23:25:00 -
[608] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Yonis Kador wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:The fact that the main trade hubs are in highsec has nothing to do with why nullsec industry is terrible. Nothing? I'm going to quote you on that too, James. The most customers, best prices, and greatest overall availability of merchandise (one-stop shopping) will continue to be found in a centralized, safe location regardless of how many slots are allocated to null. So what? This has nothing to do with industry. We don't need customers and trade to feed our war machine, we need materials and production.
You should actually read his post. He already pre-countered the above argument you just made. Gone. Done. Try again.
Seriously, read/think more, and sperg less. |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA
215
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 23:27:00 -
[609] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Pinky Hops wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:the fact that the main trade hubs are in highsec has nothing to do with why nullsec industry is terrible If you honestly believe this, then you are so incredibly ignorant of basic economics and the way industry works in EVE that you really shouldn't be talking at all about this subject. Industry and trade are inherently linked. You can't talk about one without also talking about the other. It's like trying to talk about the speed of a car - but refusing to discuss the tires. You're talking about the trade hubs as though they're something set in stone, like they don't fluctuate or anything. Meanwhile, Rens is slowly being eaten away by Hek, and only a few people are really noticing. Hell, Yulai used to be a trade hub. It used to be THE trade hub.
No, I'm not talking about trade hubs as if they are set in stone. Where did I imply that in any way, shape, or form?
Of course hubs shift and mutate over time -- but that doesn't change the fact that hubs are where people mostly sell their goods -- and as such there is a tremendous market advantage for doing industry near those hubs (or at least, as near as reasonably possible) |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8316
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 23:29:00 -
[610] - Quote
No, there's a tremendous market advantage for doing industry where you actually have the slots and production capabilities of highsec.
Are you completely unaware that selling things in nullsec generally leads to greater profit margins, and depending upon what you sell the trade volume isn't all that low either? My EVE Videos |
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Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA
215
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 23:34:00 -
[611] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:No, there's a tremendous market advantage for doing industry where you actually have the slots and production capabilities of highsec.
If you can't figure out how to get slots in nullsec, I feel sorry for you. Most of the outposts are abandoned. Maybe your corp only has access to a few of them and you are crying about it?
You could always switch to POS's. For a lot of things, POS production is actually more profitable per hour than Station production, even though the profit margins are lower -- because you can produce things much much faster in a POS.
Also: if you disagree that manufacturing near trade hubs is a tremendous advantage -- you are full of it.
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Are you completely unaware that selling things in nullsec generally leads to greater profit margins, and depending upon what you sell the trade volume isn't all that low either?
1) Greater profit margins come because of fuel costs. Most people hate mining in nullsec. Very few people go to live in nullsec so they can mine. Mining sucks. It's boring. People ship in a lot of their minerals, resources, etc - and that raises the cost of production. It takes time and effort to JF in stuff.
2) Volume will always be pathetic compared to a highsec trade hub |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
450
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 23:40:00 -
[612] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: So what? This has nothing to do with industry. We don't need customers and trade to feed our war machine, we need materials and production.
I don't agree with that. Now it has nothing to with the hubs or industry either? Comeon. They're interconnected. And you need everything. The cake, the party, and the people eating it. I'm not saying that null doesn't need more slots per se, (it may, but that's not going to solve the fundamental problem of high sec industry being more efficient on its own. You'll still need the materials and then the perfect refine rates. So, yes, everything.) And even then, high sec will still have greater safety, numbers, and turnaround. You'll be able to charge more, but with only 15% of characters as customers, you're still playing a niche market and trying to compete with a superior economic engine. A far simpler path to industrial superiority is the disincentivization of high sec industry (whether that's accomplished by bombing raids or CCP devs) so that the added logistical costs and effort necessary make logical sense, as opposed to demanding the entire game be restructured to better suit your goals.
imo.
YK "High-five, fist bump, explode, implode, fist bump again, under-five, up-five, chest-bump...ohhhhh....call 911!"
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8316
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 23:40:00 -
[613] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:No, there's a tremendous market advantage for doing industry where you actually have the slots and production capabilities of highsec. If you can't figure out how to get slots in nullsec, I feel sorry for you. Most of the outposts are abandoned. Maybe your corp only has access to a few of them and you are crying about it? Some highsec systems have more production slots than entire nullsec regions could have even if we filled them with upgraded outposts.
Pinky Hops wrote:Also: if you disagree that manufacturing near trade hubs is a tremendous advantage -- you are full of it. A large part of why these trade hubs exist is because of how great highsec industry is.
Pinky Hops wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Are you completely unaware that selling things in nullsec generally leads to greater profit margins, and depending upon what you sell the trade volume isn't all that low either? 2) Volume will always be pathetic compared to a highsec trade hub Only because a significant part of your volume is due to people buying things to be used in nullsec. My EVE Videos |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8316
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 23:41:00 -
[614] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:You'll still need the materials and then the perfect refine rates. This is part of why highsec needs to be nerfed. They need to lose the perfect refine. My EVE Videos |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
901
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 23:43:00 -
[615] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:No, there's a tremendous market advantage for doing industry where you actually have the slots and production capabilities of highsec.
Are you completely unaware that selling things in nullsec generally leads to greater profit margins, and depending upon what you sell the trade volume isn't all that low either? Except you do have the capabilities. Refer to my earlier post showing how many damn slots you can get in a single outpost. Null Outposts received a massive boost less than a year ago. The argument of 'We can't get enough slots' is a joke now. The only real logistical issue remaining is the fact the factory outpost only has a 30% refine at best. So you need two neighbouring outposts and to ship a lot of goods between them. Which I think most people will agree is silly that an entire outposts 'specialisation' is refining, rather than just one 'Industry' outpost.
Everything else is caused by a lot of people in Null Sec being dinosaurs and not bothering to change how they do things because the current way works. Which it's true, importing from high sec does work because of Jump Freighters. But given you export loads of high ends to High Sec, you can easily make things cheaper locally, simply by not exporting and selling them locally at a cheaper price (Since no transport costs) to the Manufacturers. And then no import costs make cheaper end product also. With same profit since you aren't two way jump freighting. All you have to do is actually do it. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8316
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 23:50:00 -
[616] - Quote
340 slots in a fully upgraded outpost is nowhere close to what we need. You don't know what you're talking about. My EVE Videos |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
148
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 23:50:00 -
[617] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote: (On something of a side note, I wonder how the economy would respond if say for 6-months to a year there was a sustained pvp atmosphere maintained in the existing 6 hubs. What would emerge then? Where would people go? Could new mini-hubs be spontaneously generated? A rapid dispersal of industry? In other words, to improve their own industry, instead of begging for resource reallocation, what would happen if null sec declared war on high sec's economy?)
My Indy alts tend to do most of their manufacturing and trade from out of system. In fact in some cases out of region as you only need to fly one jump into a region to adjust your trade prices and kick off new manufacturing anywhere in the region.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Meanwhile, Rens is slowly being eaten away by Hek, and only a few people are really noticing.
Hell, Yulai used to be a trade hub. It used to be THE trade hub.
Hek is still more of a supply Hub turning over consumables, ammo and ships for the adjoining losec and SOE mission running at Lanngisi. Getting any sort of standing for Boundless is far harder than for Brutor which gives Ren a long term advantage. Also Hek is 0.5 and full of crazies. Still it may overtake Rens who knows. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
901
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 23:59:00 -
[618] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:340 slots in a fully upgraded outpost is nowhere close to what we need. You don't know what you're talking about. It's more than 95% of high sec systems have. Probably more than 99% of high sec systems have. Only the few truly silly super industry systems in high sec have more. And given how many more null sec systems there are than high sec, to match High Sec's total number of slots, you don't need anywhere near the same density as high sec has. Especially since a lot of high sec slots aren't used.
So, lets throw some random assumptions around. 50% of High Sec slots aren't used currently. No industry happens in low/null worth including.
Then we look at where all the industry goes. I believe someone had some figures earlier that 60% of ships get destroyed in Null or something? (Not searching entire thread for it). Lets then believe Null people that generally a lot of these ships killed in high are all frigates, and say 75% worth of industry effort ships are destroyed in Null?
So.... To supply all of Nulls needs, You only need the equivalent of 37.5% of the current number of slots in high sec, with 5 times as many systems to do so in.
Yes, this is based on some assumptions, but reasonable ones. All the Null people have been saying a lot of slots go unused, and I agree, I see it myself and think those high sec super hubs could easily be nerfed. (System specific, not across the board since there are area's in high which are low in slots already). Obviously at least some of High Sec's production gets used in High Sec. And High Sec islands are included in the figures while the reality is they don't contribute to the main high sec production, and are most likely unused (Mostly)
So, if you can't do 37.5% of the output.... then you aren't even trying. Because quite simply, you can do it. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8316
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 00:06:00 -
[619] - Quote
I think you're confusing "it's possible to do it" with "it makes sense to do it". It might be possible, sure, if we fill every single system with a factory outpost. But don't ******* tell me that requiring us to do so in order to get a decent industrial base is good game balance. My EVE Videos |
ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone Caldari State
40
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 00:09:00 -
[620] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You're talking about the trade hubs as though they're something set in stone, like they don't fluctuate or anything.
Meanwhile, Rens is slowly being eaten away by Hek, and only a few people are really noticing.
Hell, Yulai used to be a trade hub. It used to be THE trade hub.
This is why I think it might be possible to move a trade hub into Null, if a big Alliance were to commit to a solid 6 month long campaign to make it 'safe enough' for traders to move in that direction. And if CCP makes Null stations a little more attractive for refining. Make it a bread crumb thing. FInd a station in .6 and make it popular by loading it up with great deals and buy orders for everything for a few months. Then, when people are getting used to coming there, move it a few more jumps into .4 space and repeat for another couple months. Then into .1 space. Guard the gates ferociously, popping any pirates trying to hassle traders. In 6 months to a year, it could happen. |
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
965
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 00:10:00 -
[621] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I think you're confusing "it's possible to do it" with "it makes sense to do it". It might be possible, sure, if we fill every single system with a factory outpost. But don't ******* tell me that requiring us to do so in order to get a decent industrial base is good game balance. What counts here as a decent industrial base? |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8316
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 00:10:00 -
[622] - Quote
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You're talking about the trade hubs as though they're something set in stone, like they don't fluctuate or anything.
Meanwhile, Rens is slowly being eaten away by Hek, and only a few people are really noticing.
Hell, Yulai used to be a trade hub. It used to be THE trade hub.
This is why I think it might be possible to move a trade hub into Null, if a big Alliance were to commit to a solid 6 month long campaign to make it 'safe enough' for traders to move in that direction. And if CCP makes Null stations a little more attractive for refining. Make it a bread crumb thing. FInd a station in .6 and make it popular by loading it up with great deals and buy orders for everything for a few months. Then, when people are getting used to coming there, move it a few more jumps into .4 space and repeat for another couple months. Then into .1 space. Guard the gates ferociously, popping any pirates trying to hassle traders. In 6 months to a year, it could happen. Why would we want to do that? My EVE Videos |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
901
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 00:11:00 -
[623] - Quote
If you fill every single system with an industrial outpost, you will have something like five times the total output of high sec. To get enough to meet your own needs (Using above assumptions), you probably need one industrial outpost every dozen or so systems. Pretty much one per constellation. I don't think that's an unreasonable ratio of stations.
Now, if the cost of stations is balanced. That's a different question. If it's sensible, that's a different question.
But you were trying to argue 'We can't do it' Which is false. "We choose not to do it because we don't want that many outposts for other reasons already" is a different story. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
901
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 00:12:00 -
[624] - Quote
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You're talking about the trade hubs as though they're something set in stone, like they don't fluctuate or anything.
Meanwhile, Rens is slowly being eaten away by Hek, and only a few people are really noticing.
Hell, Yulai used to be a trade hub. It used to be THE trade hub.
This is why I think it might be possible to move a trade hub into Null, if a big Alliance were to commit to a solid 6 month long campaign to make it 'safe enough' for traders to move in that direction. And if CCP makes Null stations a little more attractive for refining. Make it a bread crumb thing. FInd a station in .6 and make it popular by loading it up with great deals and buy orders for everything for a few months. Then, when people are getting used to coming there, move it a few more jumps into .4 space and repeat for another couple months. Then into .1 space. Guard the gates ferociously, popping any pirates trying to hassle traders. In 6 months to a year, it could happen. Yulai ceased being a trade hub because of CCP intervention moving some gates. None of the other trade hubs which appeared after that CCP intervention have died out. |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA
215
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 00:17:00 -
[625] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:340 slots in a fully upgraded outpost is nowhere close to what we need. You don't know what you're talking about.
Wtf?
Except that you get that in every single system. You don't need research outposts, at all, ever, because POS's take up that role.
You only need 1 refining outpost per constellation at MOST.
340 slots per system is fantastic, and should absolutely be sufficient to seed a large coalition with nearly everything they need, assuming they are actually used.
With just 50 factory outposts, that's 17,000 manufacturing slots - enough to service 1,700 full time industrial manufacturing characters.
That slot density far exceeds what is possible in highsec.
Of course, it requires a coalition to *cough* actually manage it's resources....
(and don't tell me 50 systems/outposts is a lot. it isn't.) |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
450
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 00:23:00 -
[626] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Yonis Kador wrote: (On something of a side note, I wonder how the economy would respond if say for 6-months to a year there was a sustained pvp atmosphere maintained in the existing 6 hubs. What would emerge then? Where would people go? Could new mini-hubs be spontaneously generated? A rapid dispersal of industry? In other words, to improve their own industry, instead of begging for resource reallocation, what would happen if null sec declared war on high sec's economy?)
My Indy alts tend to do most of their manufacturing and trade from out of system. In fact in some cases out of region as you only need to fly one jump into a region to adjust your trade prices and kick off new manufacturing anywhere in the region.
I'm sure that's true, but if 6,000 ships were being destroyed every day at the Jita undock, your destination to alter those orders would need adjustment in short order.
James Amril-Kesh wrote:340 slots in a fully upgraded outpost is nowhere close to what we need. You don't know what you're talking about.
I guess the thing that irks me the most about all this is that broad generalizations are used to make so many of these points. Who gets to mine everything they need in the same system they refine and manufacture in high sec? The noobs manufacturing ammo? I know I don't and I spent months working for perfect refining with 14 npc corps.
In a normal week for me, I've got to survey scan the 6-10 systems I'm currently mining in to see which have gotten mined the hardest over the weekend just to idenfity a starting point. (Over the weekend, everybody and their momma logs into high sec and literally everything gets wiped out. Mondays are rejuvination days (that's why I'm here) - sometimes Tuesdays too.) The systems I'm working out of right now are upwards to 10 jumps apart and none are near a hub. My corp theme (KADORCORP) had to be readjusted almost immediately because I couldn't maintain my gameplay (though I wanted to) by remaining within the borders of a single region. I still spend most of my time in Kador, and work there as frequently as I can, but now I roam three regions.)
Somewhat unsurprisingly, the systems best suited for mining (the ones least valued) have no/lvl 1 agents, no manufacturing slots or for maximum pow, no stations. If you're running an orca + 2/3 barge setup, you can wipe out a 5-6 belt system of everything but tritanium in a couple hrs. and do major dmg to a 10-12 belt system in that same time. Just one player easily devalues prime real estate quickly by mining from high-ends to low. Because these belts now respawn in reduced quantities, even if you've found the best kept mining secret in all of EVE, in 2 days, tops, you've got to move on.
So mining in high sec these days, is a game of strategic surveying, decentralization of assets, constant vigilence, and manditory transport of materials from a number of outlying systems to wherever you decide to centrally manufacture (which hopefully IS a system near a hub. I've been lucky enough to get my manufacturing done within 4 jumps of a hub now for years, so there's that at least.) But it is not a 'let's count the slots' and compare game and it's certainly not a system where high sec industrialists have 'everything they need' in one convenient location either. I'm working all over the map in three regions.
Just wanted to point out that there are logistical challenges here too.
imo.
YK "High-five, fist bump, explode, implode, fist bump again, under-five, up-five, chest-bump...ohhhhh....call 911!"
|
EI Digin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1652
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 00:32:00 -
[627] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:(and don't tell me 50 systems/outposts is a lot. it isn't.) LOL |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8317
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 00:35:00 -
[628] - Quote
I'm just going to let Tippia address this. He knows this **** a lot better than I do. My EVE Videos |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA
215
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 00:45:00 -
[629] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:Pinky Hops wrote:(and don't tell me 50 systems/outposts is a lot. it isn't.) LOL
Goonswarm Federation has sov in 206 systems, and access to 90 outposts.
This is the sandbox. They can decide what goes where. Sure, it has an upfront cost -- but divided by the amount of slots gained it isn't jack **** as long as you intend to use them.
The real reason industry sucks in nullsec isn't because you can't outproduce highsec.
It's because highsec represents a massive portion of the market itself. Selling stuff there is advantageous inherently because so many people play there -- and thus we get back to the silly fact that it's most efficient to produce things where you intend to sell them. |
EI Digin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1652
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Posted - 2014.01.14 00:50:00 -
[630] - Quote
So now every alliance has to be Goonswarm Federation in order to have a decent industrial base?
Quote:It's because highsec represents a massive portion of the market itself. Selling stuff there is advantageous inherently because so many people play there -- and thus we get back to the silly fact that it's most efficient to produce things where you intend to sell them.
Where do you think people lose all of this stuff? Highsec? To what? |
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