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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
901
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Posted - 2014.01.14 00:50:00 -
[631] - Quote
Referencing Dotlan. 3294 'Outlaw' systems. I can't establish exactly how many are NPC. 2751 appears to be the Sov systems off Dotlan. Should be close enough anyway.
Using aforementioned figure of 1 Factory Outpost per 12 systems. 229 Factory outposts.
At 170 base slots per system. 38930 factory slots, with 50% discounts on time to certain things (Ships which take the most time typically). So potentially 77860 slots equivalent. Lets take a nice mid point for how many functional slots as some will be used to build unbonused things. 58395 final effective slots.
Now, I can't find a reference, but I recall someone throwing around the figure of high sec having something like 65,000 slots in total? If someone could reference that one?
So (assuming the former high sec count) at one Industry outpost per 12 systems, Null Sec has approximately the same total output as High Sec. When we have already established that that output isn't actually used and empty slots are common. Meaning 1 outpost per 12 systems is actually too many for Null Sec. And 1 about every 30 systems would actually be the right ratio for Null to be capable of building everything locally. Then of course, Null would have to get the miners (Who thanks to Rorq boosts actually earn more in Null even mining the same ore, let alone the better ore) to provide the resources for that into Null, after years of convincing them that all they are is targets to be ganked & awoxed on. But, 1 per 30? That's the ratio we seem to be landing at of how many industry outposts are needed vs systems.
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EI Digin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1652
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Posted - 2014.01.14 00:52:00 -
[632] - Quote
If highsec industry has the natural advantage of being in a central location and having relative safety, it doesn't also need the artificial advantage of zero tax and (practically) zero expense. |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA
215
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 01:03:00 -
[633] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:So now every alliance has to be Goonswarm Federation in order to have a decent industrial base? Quote:It's because highsec represents a massive portion of the market itself. Selling stuff there is advantageous inherently because so many people play there -- and thus we get back to the silly fact that it's most efficient to produce things where you intend to sell them. Where do you think people lose all of this stuff? Highsec? To what?
No way.
I was just saying it was possible for GSF to do it -- even considering the absolutely enormous amount of players they have.
If 1 maxed outpost really does yield 340 slots then it should be doable for virtually any of the established nullsec powerblocks unless you have a huge amount of players and a small amount of systems. Like TEST. But it's hard to call such an alliance a nullsec power at the moment....
It's hard to really put a finger on how much production you "need." Is absolute 100% self sufficiency required? Probably unrealistic, no?
But just an example, one character can produce over 40 interceptors in a day.
HAC's? How about 8 Ishtar's a day? Doesn't sound like much -- but this is just one character.
Shrug. Embrace the sandbox or not. You shouldn't expect CCP to just wave a magic wand and give you free ships. You have the tools to make what you need. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
2085
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 01:22:00 -
[634] - Quote
I'd like to point something out to the people who are still claiming this can be done.
Nullsec doesn't avoid this because they're stubborn, or whatever. Goonswarm themselves turned into renters recently as necessity demanded. Nullsec as a whole does what it has to, to get the job done.
If this dream of yours were possible, someone would have done it by now.
If you think I'm wrong, prove it. Go do it yourself.
Get a little coalition/alliance going and ask the CFC, or N3, or whoever you feel like, to let you in with that intent. Otherwise you're theorycrafting and claiming it's fact, also known as spouting off. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA
215
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Posted - 2014.01.14 01:26:00 -
[635] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:IIf this dream of yours were possible, someone would have done it by now.
If you think I'm wrong, prove it. Go do it yourself.
It's not a "dream" it's just numbers. And just because something hasn't been done doesn't mean it isn't possible (if this was true evolution would not happen...or improvement lol)
Personally, I think that even if nullsec was hilariously overproducing highsec, that highsec production slots would still be more in demand and more profitable than nullsec ones.
Why? Better location. That was the main point I was making.
Nullsec production isn't bad because it isn't scalable. It isn't bad because it's too risky.
It's simply bad because you are producing far away from where your goods can be easily and fluently monetized in enormous volumes. It's that simple. You naturally want to be close to those locations when you produce. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
902
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 01:29:00 -
[636] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:I'd like to point something out to the people who are still claiming this can be done.
Nullsec doesn't avoid this because they're stubborn, or whatever. Goonswarm themselves turned into renters recently as necessity demanded. Nullsec as a whole does what it has to, to get the job done.
If this dream of yours were possible, someone would have done it by now.
If you think I'm wrong, prove it. Go do it yourself.
Get a little coalition/alliance going and ask the CFC, or N3, or whoever you feel like, to let you in with that intent. Otherwise you're theorycrafting and claiming it's fact, also known as spouting off. No, it's known as educating the morons who stick their heads in the sand and insist it's impossible. Because it is fact that the slots are quite creatable. Goonswarm depending on what type of outposts they have may already have the capacity they need for just their members (Assuming the stations are upgraded)
There are other reasons they choose not to (Such as,... till a year ago the slots couldn't be made, or lack desire to do capital investment into infrastructure), but that is a choice, not something they are forced to do. |
EI Digin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1655
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Posted - 2014.01.14 01:56:00 -
[637] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote: You shouldn't expect CCP to just wave a magic wand and give you free ships.
This is basically what highsec stations are, a handout. You can't compete with free. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
2087
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Posted - 2014.01.14 02:13:00 -
[638] - Quote
Quote:It's simply bad because you are producing far away from where your goods can be easily and fluently monetized in enormous volumes.
You're being very dense, or at the very least thinking like a carebear.
They don't want it to sell it. They want it to use it.
Their end goal is supplies and war materials, not money.
Quote:Nullsec production isn't bad because it isn't scalable. It isn't bad because it's too risky.
It would be bad if it were one of those things. It's bad because it's both.
They don't give 2 fucks about production of things to sell. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA
215
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Posted - 2014.01.14 02:13:00 -
[639] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:Pinky Hops wrote: You shouldn't expect CCP to just wave a magic wand and give you free ships.
This is basically what highsec stations are, a handout. You can't compete with free.
But you can compete with "free."
Example 1: You want to do t2 production. There are "free" copy/invent/ME/PE slots...But there is a problem. You have to wait for them and sit in line.
This costs time and reduces your efficiency. So instead, you decide to join a corp that has a POS, or anchor your own. Now you get slots whenever you want, of whatever type you want -- all conveniently in a singular location. The fuel pays for itself within a few day, and you chuckle at the thought of "free" lab slots.
How are they "free" when the opportunity cost for using them is negative?
Example 2: You want to produce a whole crapload of cheap modules. Insane bulk. The difference in profit margin between producing it in a POS vs a station is negligable compared to the speed increase of making it in a POS.
Thus, you pay for the POS and spam the crap out of the module, making more isk per slot/hour than you could in a station. It pays for the fuel and profit above that. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8318
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 02:15:00 -
[640] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:They don't want it to sell it. They want it to use it.
Their end goal is supplies and war materials, not money. But profit margins! Trade hubs! ISK/hour! My EVE Videos |
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Angelica Dreamstar
Epic Boo Bees
165
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Posted - 2014.01.14 02:24:00 -
[641] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:If highsec industry has the natural advantage of being in a central location and having relative safety, it doesn't also need the artificial advantage of zero tax and (practically) zero expense. The natural advantage of being in a central location. Whatever that means for you, for me it means that you have to shoot into every direction, if you want to defend yourself. Seeking fame and fortune? ;) No age limit! There's a tears bonus program ! Join the Epic Boo Bees! (chars of all age and sex, RP,PvP) |
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
535
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Posted - 2014.01.14 02:38:00 -
[642] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:They don't want it to sell it. They want it to use it.
Their end goal is supplies and war materials, not money. But profit margins! Trade hubs! ISK/hour!
I'm not an industrialist but aren't the things you're mentioning here exactly what industry is about?
"You should just create one thread and put all of your complaints in it instead of littering the forums with multiple threads." ~CCP Falcon
Paranoia never killed anyone. -áA complete absence of it has. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8318
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Posted - 2014.01.14 02:42:00 -
[643] - Quote
I thought industry was about making things. My EVE Videos |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
902
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 02:46:00 -
[644] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
They don't want it to sell it. They want it to use it.
Their end goal is supplies and war materials, not money.
If they actually wanted to use it, it's fine right now. The materials are cheaper locally since they don't have to pay for the JF fuel costs to get high ends to trade hubs. They don't 'have' to import, they can make all the low ends locally by bothering to belt mine. It's not like it changes how fast someone can warp to you since all the grav sites are anoms anyway. Or they can mine enough low ends from the grav sites and export spare high ends to high sec still for profit. They can build the slots easily. 420 potential from a single outpost if you use it perfectly, and ships are the high volume shipping goods. The amount of ammo you can import on a single JF trip is incredible. Ships are your bulky items best made locally and they are the ones with the best time bonus.
So.... Not seeing the problem. 1 Factory outpost per 20-30 Null Sec Systems generates all the industry they could ever need. If they are a more densely packed alliance, then they obviously will need it slightly closer than that.
The short version is they simply don't want to. Plenty of arguments why not to do it sure. But none of which will be changed by nerfing high sec. |
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
535
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Posted - 2014.01.14 02:58:00 -
[645] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I thought industry was about making things.
I think there's more to industry than that. What industry makes things just for the sake of making things? They make things to sell for a profit. They sell these things in a market. They sell these things at a rate that maximizes their profits preferably so their Q3 earnings are greater than in the previous quarter.
"You should just create one thread and put all of your complaints in it instead of littering the forums with multiple threads." ~CCP Falcon
Paranoia never killed anyone. -áA complete absence of it has. |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA
215
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 03:00:00 -
[646] - Quote
Kimmi Chan wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I thought industry was about making things. I think there's more to industry than that. What industry makes things just for the sake of making things? They make things to sell for a profit. They sell these things in a market. They sell these things at a rate that maximizes their profits preferably so their Q3 earnings are greater than in the previous quarter.
Not to mention so that they can use their profits to re-invest and make more things, faster.
Industrialists who don't do things for profit soon do not have any currency to make anything at all. Or they get stuck in an endless loop of mining -> producing at a loss with minerals mined...Ouch. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
2087
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 03:14:00 -
[647] - Quote
Quote:Not to mention so that they can use their profits to re-invest and make more things, faster.
How can you still not understand that "profits" is not the goal here? Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
942
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 03:32:00 -
[648] - Quote
The monthly "I want to look kewl to lo and null sec" thread has arrived on schedule. This thread has so much content it may be 'Thread of the Year' and it is only January.
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Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
535
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Posted - 2014.01.14 03:32:00 -
[649] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Quote:Not to mention so that they can use their profits to re-invest and make more things, faster. How can you still not understand that "profits" is not the goal here?
Profits is the ONLY goal of industry.
"You should just create one thread and put all of your complaints in it instead of littering the forums with multiple threads." ~CCP Falcon
Paranoia never killed anyone. -áA complete absence of it has. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
2087
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 03:33:00 -
[650] - Quote
Kimmi Chan wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Quote:Not to mention so that they can use their profits to re-invest and make more things, faster. How can you still not understand that "profits" is not the goal here? Profits is the ONLY goal of industry.
No.
Production is.
What you do with the product is a separate act. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
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Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
535
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Posted - 2014.01.14 03:36:00 -
[651] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Kimmi Chan wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Quote:Not to mention so that they can use their profits to re-invest and make more things, faster. How can you still not understand that "profits" is not the goal here? Profits is the ONLY goal of industry. No. Production is. What you do with the product is a separate act.
Sorry Kaarous, that is just naive. Industry is not simply production. No industry exists only to produce for the sake of production. "You should just create one thread and put all of your complaints in it instead of littering the forums with multiple threads." ~CCP Falcon
Paranoia never killed anyone. -áA complete absence of it has. |
EI Digin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1656
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 03:38:00 -
[652] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:All those "free" minerals, right?
I prefer "free" jump freighter services.
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
2088
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Posted - 2014.01.14 03:40:00 -
[653] - Quote
Kimmi Chan wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Kimmi Chan wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Quote:Not to mention so that they can use their profits to re-invest and make more things, faster. How can you still not understand that "profits" is not the goal here? Profits is the ONLY goal of industry. No. Production is. What you do with the product is a separate act. Sorry Kaarous, that is just naive. Industry is not simply production. No industry exists only to produce for the sake of production.
Actually, several do. Notably, the American battle tank industry.
It continues to exist, subsidized 100% by the government, to keep the individuals working there from being unemployed. The Army has a giant warehouse full of unused tanks in the desert near the facility.
Industry is production.
Sales is, well, sales.
They are separate. I also do not know why the concept of making something to actually use it is so foreign to you.
Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
148
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 03:41:00 -
[654] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I thought industry was about making things.
Unless your subsidised to not make things .. or your manufacturing is a front for something else ... or you are invovled in futures and margin trading ... or you live in Hong Kong.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Kimmi Chan wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Quote:Not to mention so that they can use their profits to re-invest and make more things, faster. How can you still not understand that "profits" is not the goal here? Profits is the ONLY goal of industry. No. Production is. What you do with the product is a separate act.
Not true.
If you get more AK47s by making illegal drugs and selling them and then buying your AK47s you are better off making illegal drugs then AK47s.
There is only one situation where production is not about profit and that is the case where the ONLY way to obtain an item is make it yourself. |
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
535
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 03:45:00 -
[655] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Actually, several do. Notably, the American battle tank industry.
It continues to exist, subsidized 100% by the government, to keep the individuals working there from being unemployed. The Army has a giant warehouse full of unused tanks in the desert near the facility.
Profiting from a subsidy from the American Government.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Industry is production.
Sales is, well, sales.
They are separate. I also do not know why the concept of making something to actually use it is so foreign to you.
Use it for what? Territorial wars in Nullsec that have the potential of increasing real estate holdings that are still a profit?
"You should just create one thread and put all of your complaints in it instead of littering the forums with multiple threads." ~CCP Falcon
Paranoia never killed anyone. -áA complete absence of it has. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
2088
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 03:46:00 -
[656] - Quote
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Use it for what? Territorial wars in Nullsec that have the potential of increasing real estate holdings that are still a profit?
Or, you know...
fun.
Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
535
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Posted - 2014.01.14 03:54:00 -
[657] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Kimmi Chan wrote:
Use it for what? Territorial wars in Nullsec that have the potential of increasing real estate holdings that are still a profit?
Or, you know... fun.
Andrew Carnegie did not decide to make steel for fun.
Henry Ford did not decide to make cars for fun.
Every industrial endeavor has but one purpose - to make a profit. No industry continues to operate at a loss for any extended amount of time (unless they are subsidized or "bailed out" by the government). "You should just create one thread and put all of your complaints in it instead of littering the forums with multiple threads." ~CCP Falcon
Paranoia never killed anyone. -áA complete absence of it has. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
902
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 04:05:00 -
[658] - Quote
This being a game 'Fun' can be considered a 'profit' effectively. So, for 'fun' is valid. But the Industrialist will want to make money on his effort still, just the players buying will be paying for 'fun'. The Industrialist certainly won't want to loose money on his effort. |
Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
4224
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 04:31:00 -
[659] - Quote
Who cares? It's a ******* game. Get over it, nerds.
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Diamond Zerg
Taking Solo Away.
36
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Posted - 2014.01.14 07:04:00 -
[660] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Who cares? It's a ******* game. Get over it, nerds.
Hey Anslo! I once lost 100m to an impersonator of yours (and by this I mean I'm a fan, cause I agreed to loan someone I thought was you ISK XD)
Of course after filing petition I got the ISK back ^^.
What are your thoughts on whether hisec should be nerfed? |
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