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Author |
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Ailer Stane
Reclamation Technologies
29
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Posted - 2014.01.14 00:08:00 -
[61] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:The fact is that as long as the signatory nations decide the war is worth the money, there will be militia freelancers willing to collect it.
Money is the sinew of war. Shut off the money and end the war.
And yet you choose. While I understand your point is practical and I mine theoretical. An individual makes a choice. I choose to kill for politics or for money. Do I kill or do I not. |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
2175
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Posted - 2014.01.14 02:25:00 -
[62] - Quote
Peace is a noble goal, but don't forget the Caldari 34th Rule of Business. I'm sure Roden hasn't, that's for sure. Nullsec in a Nutshell: http://nedroid.com/comics/2006-08-24-2155-arrrdino.gif |
Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
1585
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Posted - 2014.01.14 02:35:00 -
[63] - Quote
I don't know Rule 34. Is there a Rule 34? |
James Syagrius
Syndicated Ice
730
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Posted - 2014.01.14 03:11:00 -
[64] - Quote
Mr. Stane I don't know if I should welcome you to IGS or not, considering what you will surly experience.
But to business.
Your effort is laudable but hopeless.
Many early in their careers have pined for peace.
Including myself.
Peace you see is too hard and has only "speculative" champions.
Best to become cynical early. GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
-á
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Jace Sarice
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre ZT-07K Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
25
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Posted - 2014.01.14 03:58:00 -
[65] - Quote
Ailer Stane wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:The fact is that as long as the signatory nations decide the war is worth the money, there will be militia freelancers willing to collect it.
Money is the sinew of war. Shut off the money and end the war.
And yet you choose. While I understand your point is practical and I mine theoretical. An individual makes a choice. I choose to kill for politics or for money. Do I kill or do I not.
The discussion was not about whether someone should or should not fight in a militia. It was whether or not the proxy wars could be stopped by those involved in the fighting. Switching the topic once several people responded to your absurd assertions does not help your cause. |
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
331
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Posted - 2014.01.14 08:09:00 -
[66] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:I don't know Rule 34. Is there a Rule 34?
"If it exists, there's profit to be made off it."
At least that's what a certain Intaki told me a couple weeks ago. I'm not the one to endorse racial stereotypes, mind you. - Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim ___________________________ Angels are never far... Stillwater Corporation recruitment open. |
Aelisha
Achura-Waschi Exchange
305
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Posted - 2014.01.14 10:02:00 -
[67] - Quote
Leopold Caine wrote:Scherezad wrote:I don't know Rule 34. Is there a Rule 34? "If it exists, there's profit to be made off it."At least that's what a certain Intaki told me a couple weeks ago. I'm not the one to endorse racial stereotypes, mind you.
Hey! I resemble that remark!
CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange: An International trade corporation that adheres to State values
Intaki born State Citizen and supporter of the Practicals Bloc. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
3151
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 17:20:00 -
[68] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:I don't know Rule 34. Is there a Rule 34?
The 34th rule of business is that War is good for business. The 35th rule, of course, is that Peace is good for business - but that one gets forgotten a lot, lately. |
Ailer Stane
Reclamation Technologies
30
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Posted - 2014.01.14 19:11:00 -
[69] - Quote
Jace Sarice wrote:Ailer Stane wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:The fact is that as long as the signatory nations decide the war is worth the money, there will be militia freelancers willing to collect it.
Money is the sinew of war. Shut off the money and end the war.
And yet you choose. While I understand your point is practical and I mine theoretical. An individual makes a choice. I choose to kill for politics or for money. Do I kill or do I not. The discussion was not about whether someone should or should not fight in a militia. It was whether or not the proxy wars could be stopped by those involved in the fighting. Switching the topic once several people responded to your absurd assertions does not help your cause. I was unaware that I had a cause. I will endeavor to make my point less opaque. If no one fights there will be no war. |
Ailer Stane
Reclamation Technologies
30
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Posted - 2014.01.14 19:24:00 -
[70] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Mr. Stane I don't know if I should welcome you to IGS or not, considering what you will surly experience. Thank you for your advise, both here and elsewhere. The information you directed me to was very useful and the profiles on certain personalities gave me an incite into their motivations.
James Syagrius wrote:Your effort is laudable but hopeless . I appreciate your perspective but I feel my participation in this discussion isn't completed.
James Syagrius wrote:Many early in their careers have pined for peace. Including myself. Peace you see is too hard and has only "speculative" champions. Best to become cynical early. I would ask if yours and Mr Tuulinens sentiments as expressed in other forums regarding peace have changed? |
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Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
749
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Posted - 2014.01.14 22:50:00 -
[71] - Quote
Ailer Stane wrote:James Syagrius wrote:Mr. Stane I don't know if I should welcome you to IGS or not, considering what you will surly experience. Thank you for your advise, both here and elsewhere. The information you directed me to was very useful and the profiles on certain personalities gave me an incite into their motivations. James Syagrius wrote:Your effort is laudable but hopeless . I appreciate your perspective but I feel my participation in this discussion isn't completed. James Syagrius wrote:Many early in their careers have pined for peace. Including myself. Peace you see is too hard and has only "speculative" champions. Best to become cynical early. I would ask if yours and Mr Tuulinens sentiments as expressed in other forums regarding peace have changed?
I don't think that the problem is that capsuleers don't want peace, unfortunately. Plenty of us think there are better uses of us as resources than unending legislated warfare. The problem is that the factional warfare isn't something the capsuleers started and certainly won't be something we can finish with a handshake. Even if someone managed to take over the whole of the warzone for their people, it would never be safe so long as the treaties that make that war stand continue.
You're simply talking to the wrong people. It would be like telling a battle line sergeant that he needed to end the warfare. It isn't in capsuleer hands to make those regions safe(r) for travel. "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
-Matthew 16:26 |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
3152
|
Posted - 2014.01.14 23:44:00 -
[72] - Quote
Ailer Stane wrote:I would ask if yours and Mr Tuulinens sentiments as expressed in other forums regarding peace have changed?
I hesitate to speak for Msr Sygarius, but I would wager that both of us are as keen as ever to see peace. Sadly we are also realists who understand that those driving the Forever War do not share that desire. |
James Syagrius
Syndicated Ice
732
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 01:19:00 -
[73] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Ailer Stane wrote:I would ask if yours and Mr Tuulinens sentiments as expressed in other forums regarding peace have changed? I hesitate to speak for Msr Sygarius, but I would wager that both of us are as keen as ever to see peace. Sadly we are also realists who understand that those driving the Forever War do not share that desire. Mr. Stane.
We must seem very cynical and jaded to you.
But this is a road long traveled.
I hear from our mutual acquaintances that you are a moral man with an ethical center lacking in many of your capsuleer kin, including I regret to say, myself.
Don't become discouraged, but don't assume that the theoretical will ever vanquish the practical.
Peace will come in its own time.
Oh and for what its worth Pieter, you are one of two Caldari, loyal to the State, that need never "hesitate" to speak for me. GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
-á
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Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
1587
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 01:44:00 -
[74] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Ailer Stane wrote:I would ask if yours and Mr Tuulinens sentiments as expressed in other forums regarding peace have changed? I hesitate to speak for Msr Sygarius, but I would wager that both of us are as keen as ever to see peace. Sadly we are also realists who understand that those driving the Forever War do not share that desire. Mr. Stane. We must seem very cynical and jaded to you. But this is a road long traveled. I hear from our mutual acquaintances that you are a moral man with an ethical center lacking in many of your capsuleer kin, including I regret to say, myself. Don't become discouraged, but don't assume that the theoretical will ever vanquish the practical. Peace will come in its own time. Oh and for what its worth Pieter, you are one of two Caldari, loyal to the State, that need never "hesitate" to speak for me. I'm quite curious, sir, if I may - don't feel obliged.
Who is the other? |
Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
4226
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Posted - 2014.01.15 02:43:00 -
[75] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:We must seem very cynical and jaded to you. There's an easy solution for this feeling by the by...
Stop caring.
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Jace Sarice
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre ZT-07K Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
25
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Posted - 2014.01.15 03:48:00 -
[76] - Quote
Ailer Stane wrote: If no one fights there will be no war.
This point has been addressed already by several people here. Congratulations on becoming entirely inane with your repetition. |
Iwan Terpalen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
116
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 22:25:00 -
[77] - Quote
First peasant to figure out how to beat his plowshare into a sword, eh. |
Ailer Stane
Reclamation Technologies
31
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 22:51:00 -
[78] - Quote
Jace Sarice wrote:Ailer Stane wrote: If no one fights there will be no war.
This point has been addressed already by several people here. Congratulations on becoming entirely inane with your repetition. Repetition is a proven method of training for those who cannot be taught. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
3153
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 23:01:00 -
[79] - Quote
Let me boil it down to it's simplest terms...
Your appeal will remove only the patriots from the warzone - those who care about the reputations of their respective militias. Those with a vested interest in maintaining the law of arms and interstellar law. It will leave in place those who fight solely for the money - in effect making a bad situation infinitely worse.
Moreover the presence of those mercenary elements demands the presence of patriot elements to secure and protect the interests of their countrymen. |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
626
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 23:36:00 -
[80] - Quote
So, how about the patriots from both sides shake hands and fight those that bring death to your kin for money alone? Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate |
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Jace Sarice
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre ZT-07K Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
25
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 03:28:00 -
[81] - Quote
There are far too many stark raving idealists in this discussion. |
Solarienne
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
170
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 09:33:00 -
[82] - Quote
Jace Sarice wrote:There are far too many stark raving idealists in this discussion.
Too true, friend, too true. Then again I can imagine the Empires make a good deal of scratch out of the circle jerk CEWPA engagement terms - give us the burden of cost with the promise or reward, tax transactions on home soil.
The best thing about this thread is the blood and mud imagery thrown up, as if a single capsuleer here couldn't fill a two-up two-down residential home with corpses, and that's in a pretty light week. Even worse are those who think that by not pulling the trigger, but by flying the flag, they are somehow better, or cleaner than their harder working peers.
Simply put, Jace Sarice makes a good, if brief, point. Idealists are pretty good at lying to themselves and it seems that force is being turned outwards in this thread. Not a man jack among us is clean, Nation, Angel, State, Fed, Tribal, Imperial and so on.
Learn to live with it, killing is our business, and we're the best at it by bodies per hour.
Not to say you shouldn't have a balanced lifestyle, but get real about the CEWPA being any different from whatever petty conflicts you idealists are pecking away at while you leave your countrymen to toil in the dirt. "Pulled from the grime and uncertainty that my life had been, I opened my eyes for the first time and saw in the distance, oh so far away, Utopia. -áMy path may be the broken backs of those who stand against me, but one day, I will stand at the gates and I will be Home." - Sascha Ishenko; Meditations on Servitude |
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
751
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 13:54:00 -
[83] - Quote
Solarienne wrote:Jace Sarice wrote:There are far too many stark raving idealists in this discussion. Too true, friend, too true. Then again I can imagine the Empires make a good deal of scratch out of the circle jerk CEWPA engagement terms - give us the burden of cost with the promise or reward, tax transactions on home soil. The best thing about this thread is the blood and mud imagery thrown up, as if a single capsuleer here couldn't fill a two-up two-down residential home with corpses, and that's in a pretty light week. Even worse are those who think that by not pulling the trigger, but by flying the flag, they are somehow better, or cleaner than their harder working peers. Simply put, Jace Sarice makes a good, if brief, point. Idealists are pretty good at lying to themselves and it seems that force is being turned outwards in this thread. Not a man jack among us is clean, Nation, Angel, State, Fed, Tribal, Imperial and so on. Learn to live with it, killing is our business, and we're the best at it by bodies per hour. Not to say you shouldn't have a balanced lifestyle, but get real about the CEWPA being any different from whatever petty conflicts you idealists are pecking away at while you leave your countrymen to toil in the dirt.
As one of the aforementioned idealists, one who mostly spends his time in other empires trying to promote our religion by peaceful means, I'm probably the worst capsuleer you could get in terms of bodies-by-the-minute. I still think I've done better by Amarrian relations to the rest of the cluster than any of our gunships have done. The business of killing each other is just a necessary evil at this point that we'll hopefully overcome. Everyone is getting, at the very least, bored of the same old war for reasons we've all largely outgrown. "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
-Matthew 16:26 |
Solarienne
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
171
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 14:04:00 -
[84] - Quote
The low end of a large number, is still a large number, Reverend. Or do you not consider vessels piloted by non-free-captain capsuleers, or those unequipped with capsules, to count in the grand scheme of things?
I do not intend this as a straw man, we all have our ways of keeping tally, and I consider my contribution to the pile to be largely counted in capsuleer vessels, not even daring to count the non-capsule equipped vessels that have fallen by my hand.
If your conscience is clean, then I applaud you for coming to terms with whatever you might have done, how little or large those sins may be. But it does not change the fact that we are by our nature, and sometimes by our commission, weapons of war. In terms of the CEWPA there is an inherent futility, I agree, but if not that, then what other act of violence? If not for that containment and focus on greed over blood lust, what damage might be done? "Pulled from the grime and uncertainty that my life had been, I opened my eyes for the first time and saw in the distance, oh so far away, Utopia. -áMy path may be the broken backs of those who stand against me, but one day, I will stand at the gates and I will be Home." - Sascha Ishenko; Meditations on Servitude |
Jace Sarice
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre ZT-07K Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
25
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 15:45:00 -
[85] - Quote
Constantin Baracca wrote:I still think I've done better by Amarrian relations to the rest of the cluster than any of our gunships have done.
Don't underestimate the respect gunships may instill in one's allies. "Our wounds are self-inflicted." |
Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
1589
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 15:47:00 -
[86] - Quote
Jace Sarice wrote:There are far too many stark raving idealists in this discussion. Everyone is an idealist, we all follow the images in our minds to the conclusions we feel they lead us to. Some of us just have happier minds than others, and they lead us to brighter places. |
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
752
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:05:00 -
[87] - Quote
Solarienne wrote:The low end of a large number, is still a large number, Reverend. Or do you not consider vessels piloted by non-free-captain capsuleers, or those unequipped with capsules, to count in the grand scheme of things?
I do not intend this as a straw man, we all have our ways of keeping tally, and I consider my contribution to the pile to be largely counted in capsuleer vessels, not even daring to count the non-capsule equipped vessels that have fallen by my hand.
If your conscience is clean, then I applaud you for coming to terms with whatever you might have done, how little or large those sins may be. But it does not change the fact that we are by our nature, and sometimes by our commission, weapons of war. In terms of the CEWPA there is an inherent futility, I agree, but if not that, then what other act of violence? If not for that containment and focus on greed over blood lust, what damage might be done?
Well, though I may offer a bit less vitriol to those Sansha who aren't preying on our people anymore (the low end of a large number, I suppose), I can't say I have a problem flying through high-security space looking to gun down pirates. I also can't say it matters what empire I am in. I think all civilians have a right to fly freight and passengers uninhibited and without fear of being killed and robbed. So in that, I suppose I've some blood on my hands. Not blood I particularly mind having.
As you suggest, though, my profession is something of a clean one by design. I do not fault men like Pieter for what they have to do; they've little choice in the matter. I am the opposite, even if I'd wanted to march onto the killing fields for some reason, it is incompatible with my job description. You can't preach the Word to the Matari people if you fly straight out into the warzone to kill their more belligerent cousins.
However, my low rate of violence is even then voluntary and based on a principle, that a capsuleer is at his best when he is serving the common man. If we accomplish one thing as a people to be proud of, it may be finally one day making space safe to travel and bringing together everyone into one common understanding. It may be a long way away, but there is no reason not to expect better out of us as a species. "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
-Matthew 16:26 |
Jace Sarice
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre ZT-07K Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
25
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:16:00 -
[88] - Quote
Scherezad wrote: Everyone is an idealist, we all follow the images in our minds to the conclusions we feel they lead us to. Some of us just have happier minds than others, and they lead us to brighter places.
If everyone is an idealist, the term means nothing. Someone is an idealist as compared to a realist; it is a scale. While it certainly has its areas of grey that are open to interpretation like any other scale, to declare everyone to exist on one side of the scale is to render the terms meaningless. "Our wounds are self-inflicted." |
Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
1589
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:39:00 -
[89] - Quote
Jace Sarice wrote:Scherezad wrote: Everyone is an idealist, we all follow the images in our minds to the conclusions we feel they lead us to. Some of us just have happier minds than others, and they lead us to brighter places.
If everyone is an idealist, the term means nothing. Someone is an idealist as compared to a realist; it is a scale. While it certainly has its areas of grey that are open to interpretation like any other scale, to declare everyone to exist on one side of the scale is to render the terms meaningless. You are correct, sir. The term is meaningless.
While it can be said that our mental models can adhere closer to or further from reality, none of them are indistinguishably close. We are all separated by some significant degree. Further, and more importantly, we simultaneously hold multiple contradictory models at the same time, making discussions of "idealism" and "realism" incoherent, as we must speak of which cognitive system is at the moment engaged. The reality of our minds, and how we come to conclusions, is far more messy than "more idealistic" and "more realistic", unfortunately.
The terms are polite compactions of "You are naieve" and "I am wise" in the original context in this thread, nothing more. |
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
753
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 17:15:00 -
[90] - Quote
I've always thought that the term "realist" was just as meaningless. Essentially, a realist is supposed to understand the universe as it really is. Most of the "realists" I've ever met are pessimists who discount potential. Obviously, if you think the universe can be great and spend your life trying to live up to that ideal, then life will be full of promise. If you think everyone lives down to their lowest denominators and you spend your life trying to get yours in a cruel world, life will seem like a struggle.
Realism would therefore be just as meaningless as idealism, in that both seemingly function in a universe that doesn't actually exist. The universe isn't "really" anything, it's a big place with too much variation to ever take in at once. Of course, your small corner of that universe may seem a certain way, but it's largely because you've surrounded yourself with certain kinds of people and certain situations you feel comfortable with.
I suppose that's why I've always had a bit more positive outlook on existence than many of my more cynical fellow capsuleers; I have always taken the time to appreciate the goodness of mankind. If we were nothing more than animals, we would consume as best we could and forget everyone but our nearest family. Even the basest pirate I've ever met can't claim to be that; everyone has a basic level of decency they will refuse to live below. Some of those bars may be set far below mine, but then again I don't think most people set them that far below mine regardless. There is that perception, but if you go through life already assuming people are as horrible as you think they are, you never really do give them a chance to surprise you.
And they will surprise you.
Suffice it to say, Gallente-Caldari relations are probably improving, especially where there is a cross-cultural exchange that can be made at an arm's length, such as here on the IGS. You just don't see as much honest Gallente-Caldari vitriol, at least now that Diana is indisposed. It may take their respective governments a long time to sort through the issues and come to a decent peace agreement, but then again government is always struggling behind the 8-ball, never really caught up to polite society. "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
-Matthew 16:26 |
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