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Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
799
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Posted - 2014.01.23 01:58:00 -
[151] - Quote
Nauplius wrote:Constantin Baracca wrote: Yes, yes, Nauplius, Vitoc and all that. Aren't you supposed to be chasing around Ston's order and insulting our honor in his thread rather than here? This is something of a grown-up conversation.
I made a grown-up point. The point being that mass population control technologies make possible a totally non-ironic "war to end all war." Sansha has demonstrated as such in his own way. Those who see only an endless cycle of war fail to grasp what has only quite recently become possible. Slave control in the era just before the Rebellion was done via the electric lash and slaver hounds and collars. The latter are effective but labor intensive and hard to scale over a mass of low value people. The former leave the slave partly free to think impure and rebellious thoughts. But now, huge masses of people can be controlled GÇö totally and cost effectively. This fact may be bemoaned (not by me) but it cannot be dismissed.
It can absolutely be dismissed. God did not put us in our position so that we could take the easy way out of our problems. He put us here to learn, and we will eventually learn to stop killing each other or die trying.
Sansha didn't understand that point. You don't make someone a better person by taking away the things about them you don't like. You make them better by teaching them to overcome their weaknesses. Our inability to reason and thus our constant desire to come to blows is a weakness we've far too long let fester. All the advanced living of capsuleers, all the talk of immortality, godhood, and evolution, and we're still effectively acting like very advanced cavemen with very advanced sticks and rocks.
Sansha was wrong. We can overcome these things and be better having done so. An army of mindless drones isn't making us into a pure people. It would be making us into toasters. "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
-Matthew 16:26 |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
2240
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Posted - 2014.01.23 02:01:00 -
[152] - Quote
Nauplius wrote:I made a grown-up point. The point being that mass population control technologies make possible a totally non-ironic "war to end all war." Sansha has demonstrated as such in his own way. Those who see only an endless cycle of war fail to grasp what has only quite recently become possible.
I heard that True Slave Foundations is hiring. You should send them an application.
Nullsec in a Nutshell: http://nedroid.com/comics/2006-08-24-2155-arrrdino.gif |
Nauplius
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
88
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Posted - 2014.01.23 03:56:00 -
[153] - Quote
The Theology Council declined to outlaw TCMCs for slave control years ago. They remain legal for that purpose: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/theology-council-declines-to-hear-transcranial-microcontroller-debate/
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Erin Savonarola
House Savonarola
29
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Posted - 2014.01.23 04:28:00 -
[154] - Quote
I owned a Valklear at one time. I had him fitted with a TCMC and used the vitoc method. He was a wonderful conversation piece, but I never felt completely safe around him and sold him. Sometimes extreme measures are necessary. |
Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative
152
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Posted - 2014.01.23 04:50:00 -
[155] - Quote
In answer to the original question posed in this thread... It's subjective. I would say they have slightly improved, but more due to the reality of constant warfare sliding into the category "everyday background noise", down from "main event", than any real thaw in relations between the Federation and State at large. In short, it's starting to matter less to individuals than it does to the governments why the fighting is taking place. Those who fight, fight. Those who don't, don't. Generally, neither cares to justify themselves to the other anymore. |
Hamish Grayson
Stormcrows
79
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Posted - 2014.01.23 07:51:00 -
[156] - Quote
Katrina Oniseki wrote:Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:[quote=Makoto Priano] If you believe such a shameful display of capitulation before jaiiji is acceptable and carries with it no burden of dishonour then perhaps the corporate culture of Ishukone has changed drastically from the days of honoured Gariushi-haan who at least understood the concept of compromise with strength - not weakness. Reppola-haan is no comparison. Nobody argues that fact. We'd all love to have back our dear Otro Gariushi-haan, just as you regained your dear Oiritsuu-haani, but we cannot. Nonetheless, he stood for something that we have refused to allow to die with him. Among other things, he stood for peace between the Federation and State. It was Heth who used our grief and rage to start a war, and Reppola has done his best to follow Gariushi's example and stay the hell out of it. We follow our CEO just as loyally as we are expected to. We follow his policies, we back his decisions, and we will continue to do so until such time as he is no longer the CEO of Ishukone Okusaika. You are welcome to speak your criticisms of him, just as we did of your former CEO Tibus Heth. Speaking of Heth... you weren't terribly keen on his policies either, were you? Well then perhaps you can understand why we grit our teeth and continue on, despite not totally agreeing with everything the management does.
It reflects poorly upon my character to speak ill of the dead, especially a former member of the Chief Executive Panel but I feel that to elevate Otro Gariushi to the level of esteem that you hold him suuolo is to do yourself a great disservice. A cursory datamine on Gariushi's history reveals a man who was most certainly not driven by humanitarian ideals.
The man's advocacy for peace cannot be attributed to that; instead we most look at the precarious position of Ishukone near the time of his death. He had, as he done several times in the past, lead Ishukone to the edge of bankruptcy and weakened their position within the Executive Panel. War with the Federation would have damaged both their balance-sheet and their political clout even further.
In addition to frequently bringing Ishukone near to ruination, on several occasions Otro Gariushi gave a way vital technological secrets to the Federation in hopes that it would Ishukone's sales on related products. This resulted in far reaching and long lasting affects on the State's strategic and economic position in return for very minor and temporary bumps in Ishukone profits. I would argue that if he had not given them these weapons, we'd not be in a state of war right now. |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1377
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Posted - 2014.01.23 08:44:00 -
[157] - Quote
Xindi Kraid wrote: It's not a secret that once Caldari prime was retaken the Gallente started to be treated little different than what we were rescuing Caldari from and Heth's position in a fair portion of his speeches could be boiled down to "Everything's all the Gallente's fault" and he even threatened to fire a doomsday device at a Gallente population.
Again, I agree that the the liberation of Caldari Prime wasn't necessarily a bad thing, and we have now seen a resolution (in spite of, not because of Heth I might add), but you're fooling yourself if you don't realize that it was also used as a convenient excuse to start open hostilities against the Federation as much as it was about reclaiming our homeworld. The state did its fair share to escalate this conflict.
The rumors that Heth was/is a Dragonaur are not Gallente propaganda (even though I am sure they probably spent plenty of time trying to prove that fact so they could use it as such) === Let me also pose a philosophical question for you. Is the right thing done for the wrong reason still the right thing?
Firstly, a century of negotiation and overture regarding the Homeworld accomplished nothing in respect to forging a solution to the most important territorial dispute that has faced the State since its inception. At times where diplomacy fails, then force is the only option, and without the resort to force that Tibus Heth instigated then we would still remain at the previous impasse of a century and not, as I said, with a temporary solution at the least at present. In retrospect, indeed, it would appear that in part it was an act of political opportunism by the former Executor but only because we have the luxury of hindsight to compare then and now . It does not in any way in my mind renege the appropriateness of the limited invasion into the Federation to seize through force of arms what the Federation sought to deny the Caldari people by historical and cultural rights: the blood and soil of our ancestors.
As for your question, I will respond with the following:
The ends will always justify the means used to attain them. |
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
3042
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 09:52:00 -
[158] - Quote
Grayson-haan... With all due respect, I think you need to re-examine recent history. Ishukone's departure from a stable growth trajectory coincided with the Malkalen incident, and its return has coincided with the Intaki and Caldari Prime agreements and the dissolution of the CEP. Prior to the FNS Wandering Saint's suicide-ram, Ishukone stock was trading at a 20 year high and the corporation had posted steady profits every quarter since the eviction of Les Akkilen in YC100.
The esteemed Otro Gariushi-haan was nothing but a good thing for Ishukone both fiscally and culturally. Reppola-haan has likewise demonstrated his competence as CEO, with his own leadership style. I refuse to commit to a stance on whether I would prefer to have Gariushi-haan back - that is impossible, and an insult to Reppola-haan, whom I respect. There's a middle ground available, where we can cheer on the new chief while honouring the old. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Aelisha
Achura-Waschi Exchange
306
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Posted - 2014.01.23 10:07:00 -
[159] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:not to mention their utility in automated decision-making system, control circuitry, biomechanical hybrid computer systems... The legitimate uses for TCMCs far outweigh their abuses.
This is true, they are even a required component for the so called Ascendancy implants, and by inference may be attributed as a component in many implants of similar nature. Just as a gun can be turned from the purpose of securing one's home from predators and hunting on backwater colony worlds, so can the TCMC be turned from a tool and palliative into a device of mass tailored subjugation.
The point that many who espouse the use of TCMCs also curse sansha in the same breath highlights the hypocrisy at the heart of their use as a control mechanism. It may be considered outwardly humane to curtail an individuals resistance to subjugation, in that it reduces the need for other more painful methods of enforcement, but the fact that it replaces the lash and the collar does not make it any less of a violation.
I refuse to comment on slavery as a whole out of respect for the Empire and its religion, but some methods go too far in my humble opinion. I am sure there are those who have the patience and humanity to conduct the reclaiming in their personal domains in a manner more reflective of the oft stated enlightenment and theological uplifting that underpins public discussion of that particular institution. Simply put, how can one be considered to be moving towards Amarrian terms of religious compliance under duress? Or am I fundamentally misunderstanding the terms some use to describe 'accepting God'?
I guess that my thoughts can be summed up as a question: When you use drugs or mind controlling technology to control your slaves, how different are you from the Cartel or Sansha respectively? Does a supplicant following an implanted artificial script to voice devotion actually carry your God in their heart and soul? CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange: An International trade corporation that adheres to State values
Intaki born State Citizen and supporter of the Practicals Bloc. |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1377
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 10:57:00 -
[160] - Quote
Stitcher wrote: ...dissolution of the CEP.
I must have missed that memo.
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Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
3042
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Posted - 2014.01.23 11:06:00 -
[161] - Quote
and here we see a classic example of why proof-reading is important. My apologies - the error has been corrected. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
800
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Posted - 2014.01.23 13:43:00 -
[162] - Quote
Aelisha wrote: I refuse to comment on slavery as a whole out of respect for the Empire and its religion, but some methods go too far in my humble opinion. I am sure there are those who have the patience and humanity to conduct the reclaiming in their personal domains in a manner more reflective of the oft stated enlightenment and theological uplifting that underpins public discussion of that particular institution. Simply put, how can one be considered to be moving towards Amarrian terms of religious compliance under duress? Or am I fundamentally misunderstanding the terms some use to describe 'accepting God'?
I guess that my thoughts can be summed up as a question: When you use drugs or mind controlling technology to control your slaves, how different are you from the Cartel or Sansha respectively? Does a supplicant following an implanted artificial script to voice devotion actually carry your God in their heart and soul?
I think you understand God and our religion better than you give yourself credit for. "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
-Matthew 16:26 |
Claudia Osyn
Mythic Security Service
85
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 16:29:00 -
[163] - Quote
How did we go from Caldardi/Gallente relations to Amarr slaving practices? |
Jace Sarice
Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
32
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Posted - 2014.01.23 16:40:00 -
[164] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:How did we go from Caldardi/Gallente relations to Amarr slaving practices?
The same way it always happens: people meddling in the affairs of others. Trust your veins. |
Aelisha
Achura-Waschi Exchange
309
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 17:09:00 -
[165] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:How did we go from Caldardi/Gallente relations to Amarr slaving practices?
It seemed a more interesting talking point than the usual back and forth, in that it was the method, more than the intention, that was being discussed. But by all means, map out the latest peak or trough in the relationship between the State and Federation. Or better yet, we could actually discuss the ideologies that seem to generate those trends?
I'd be pleasantly surprised by a methodological analysis of the current conditions rather than the same old reconciliation for the sake of reconciliation versus war for the sake of pride, resources or whatever else can be accrued more by force than by cooperation.
To my mind, the aggressive colonialist agenda that the Federation represents is the largest obstruction to peace, closely followed by the culturally embedded exaggeration of the view of the Federal agenda held by our beloved State. Can there be a compromise between enforced liberal values with a protected campaign of cultural erosion, and a separatist union of mega-corporations built on the concept of regulated commerce and the restriction of individual liberty in the interests of ensuring the support and well being of the whole?
Simply put, I found less burden in analysing a particularly abhorrent form of population control in the context of the instance, rather than the institution, than I do in even beginning to map the tortured history of the State and Federation. Maybe if we can start talking in terms of mapping causes to effects in a manner that both sides can agree upon, that burden will decrease, but I have doubts as to whether such a thing is possible with the weight of history pressing on every individual differently. CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange: An International trade corporation that adheres to State values
Intaki born State Citizen and supporter of the Practicals Bloc. |
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
813
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 17:18:00 -
[166] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:How did we go from Caldardi/Gallente relations to Amarr slaving practices?
As a conversation continues on the IGS, the odds of the conversation turning to slavery eventually approaches 100%. "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
-Matthew 16:26 |
Claudia Osyn
Mythic Security Service
85
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 19:16:00 -
[167] - Quote
Constantin Baracca wrote:Claudia Osyn wrote:How did we go from Caldardi/Gallente relations to Amarr slaving practices? As a conversation continues on the IGS, the odds of the conversation turning to slavery eventually approaches 100%. Diana Kim could keep us on topic, what ever happened to her anyway. Her take on this subject would be amusing , to say the least. |
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
813
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 19:21:00 -
[168] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:Constantin Baracca wrote:Claudia Osyn wrote:How did we go from Caldardi/Gallente relations to Amarr slaving practices? As a conversation continues on the IGS, the odds of the conversation turning to slavery eventually approaches 100%. Diana Kim could keep us on topic, what ever happened to her anyway. Her take on this subject would be amusing , to say the least.
I'm not sure, really. She simply dropped off the face of the cluster. If her input would be valuable, though...
*clears throat*
The slanderous Gallente filth should not be negotiated with. Their word is not to be trusted. Their involvement in the war attests to this. They speak from one corner of their mouths about wanting peace, and on the other side they spit their ammunition towards our courageous citizens of the State.
This is why the Federation must be destroyed. "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
-Matthew 16:26 |
Claudia Osyn
Mythic Security Service
85
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 19:26:00 -
[169] - Quote
Constantin Baracca wrote:Claudia Osyn wrote:Constantin Baracca wrote:Claudia Osyn wrote:How did we go from Caldardi/Gallente relations to Amarr slaving practices? As a conversation continues on the IGS, the odds of the conversation turning to slavery eventually approaches 100%. Diana Kim could keep us on topic, what ever happened to her anyway. Her take on this subject would be amusing , to say the least. I'm not sure, really. She simply dropped off the face of the cluster. If her input would be valuable, though... *clears throat* The slanderous Gallente filth should not be negotiated with. Their word is not to be trusted. Their involvement in the war attests to this. They speak from one corner of their mouths about wanting peace, and on the other side they spit their ammunition towards our courageous citizens of the State. This is why the Federation must be destroyed. Sounds about right. |
Jace Sarice
Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
32
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 20:00:00 -
[170] - Quote
Aelisha wrote: It seemed a more interesting talking point than the usual back and forth, in that it was the method, more than the intention, that was being discussed. But by all means, map out the latest peak or trough in the relationship between the State and Federation. Or better yet, we could actually discuss the ideologies that seem to generate those trends?
I'd be pleasantly surprised by a methodological analysis of the current conditions rather than the same old reconciliation for the sake of reconciliation versus war for the sake of pride, resources or whatever else can be accrued more by force than by cooperation.
To my mind, the aggressive colonialist agenda that the Federation represents is the largest obstruction to peace, closely followed by the culturally embedded exaggeration of the view of the Federal agenda held by our beloved State. Can there be a compromise between enforced liberal values with a protected campaign of cultural erosion, and a separatist union of mega-corporations built on the concept of regulated commerce and the restriction of individual liberty in the interests of ensuring the support and well being of the whole?
Simply put, I found less burden in analysing a particularly abhorrent form of population control in the context of the instance, rather than the institution, than I do in even beginning to map the tortured history of the State and Federation. Maybe if we can start talking in terms of mapping causes to effects in a manner that both sides can agree upon, that burden will decrease, but I have doubts as to whether such a thing is possible with the weight of history pressing on every individual differently.
The potential benefits of that sort of discussion become very limited when the involved parties realize their fundamental value systems and cultures differ to such a degree that it inhibits anything meaningful occurring. Trust your veins. |
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
3192
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 21:15:00 -
[171] - Quote
This is only true where cultural differences are so extreme as to prevent each side from understanding the others point of view. Sadly our Gallentean cousins often don't seem to be able to get their heads around the concept that you can understand a cultural perspective without agreeing with it. |
Nauplius
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
89
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Posted - 2014.01.23 21:29:00 -
[172] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:Diana Kim could keep us on topic, what ever happened to her anyway. Her take on this subject would be amusing , to say the least.
I, too, miss Diana Kim. The only people who ever push the Like button on my IGS posts are Tibus Heth supporters and Muck Raker. And the former have gone away.
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Jace Sarice
Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
32
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Posted - 2014.01.23 21:35:00 -
[173] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:This is only true where cultural differences are so extreme as to prevent each side from understanding the others point of view. Sadly our Gallentean cousins often don't seem to be able to get their heads around the concept that you can understand a cultural perspective without agreeing with it.
That is difficult to do when one's belief system essentially dictates that you try to spread your own culture to others. Metacultural imperialism is difficult to negotiate with. Trust your veins. |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1383
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Posted - 2014.01.23 21:47:00 -
[174] - Quote
Jace Sarice wrote: That is difficult to do when one's belief system essentially dictates that you try to spread your own culture to others. Metacultural imperialism is difficult to negotiate with.
One might say that the first victims of the metacultural imperialism that philosophical and political liberalism represents were the Gallente themselves and the Federation of today represents nothing more than the continued destruction of distinct cultural values and identity on an interstellar scale by the libertine memes first created in Caille.
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
3192
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Posted - 2014.01.23 21:58:00 -
[175] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Jace Sarice wrote: That is difficult to do when one's belief system essentially dictates that you try to spread your own culture to others. Metacultural imperialism is difficult to negotiate with.
One might say that the first victims of the metacultural imperialism that philosophical and political liberalism represents were the Gallente themselves and the Federation of today represents nothing more than the continued destruction of distinct cultural values and identity on an interstellar scale by the libertine memes first created in Caille.
I certainly know some ethnic Gallente who feel that way, Ojaabun. Emile Belfleur continually argues that multiculturalism is destroying his own culture in favour of a bastardised hybrid of the various member-states.
It seems that we still have something in common with the Luminaire Galenteans. |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1383
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Posted - 2014.01.23 22:19:00 -
[176] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I certainly know some ethnic Gallente who feel that way, Ojaabun. Emile Belfleur continually argues that multiculturalism is destroying his own culture in favour of a bastardised hybrid of the various member-states.
It seems that we still have something in common with the Luminaire Galenteans.
It's often forgotten that Caldari, Gallente, Intaki, and Mannar co-existed for centuries in peace not because of the Federation but in despite of it. The critical flaw of the Federation is that as a political and economic entity it becomes a sort of homogenizing vector that enforces the metacultural values of liberal thought until all is assimilated into a vapid and empty society that is defined not by culture, but rather its absence.
Nothing more that is left but bland consumerism dictated by rational choice theorems where Freedom and Liberty become nothing more than words to be worshiped but never actually understood.
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James Syagrius
Syndicated Ice
743
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Posted - 2014.01.23 22:19:00 -
[177] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:This is only true where cultural differences are so extreme as to prevent each side from understanding the others point of view. Sadly our Gallentean cousins often don't seem to be able to get their heads around the concept that you can understand a cultural perspective without agreeing with it. I think you may be confusing tolerance of a thing with acceptance of a thing.
We understand you well enough to know you must be opposed. GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
-á
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
3192
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 22:30:00 -
[178] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:This is only true where cultural differences are so extreme as to prevent each side from understanding the others point of view. Sadly our Gallentean cousins often don't seem to be able to get their heads around the concept that you can understand a cultural perspective without agreeing with it. I think you may be confusing tolerance of a thing with acceptance of a thing. We understand you well enough to know you must be opposed.
Obviously just not quite enough to realise that what we really want is to be left alone. But that's fine, we can keep this up forever. |
James Syagrius
Syndicated Ice
743
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Posted - 2014.01.23 22:30:00 -
[179] - Quote
Jace Sarice wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:This is only true where cultural differences are so extreme as to prevent each side from understanding the others point of view. Sadly our Gallentean cousins often don't seem to be able to get their heads around the concept that you can understand a cultural perspective without agreeing with it. That is difficult to do when one's belief system essentially dictates that you try to spread your own culture to others. Metacultural imperialism is difficult to negotiate with. Indeed, try dealing with a civilization suffering form collective oppositional defiant disorder. GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
-á
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James Syagrius
Syndicated Ice
743
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Posted - 2014.01.23 22:35:00 -
[180] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:James Syagrius wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:This is only true where cultural differences are so extreme as to prevent each side from understanding the others point of view. Sadly our Gallentean cousins often don't seem to be able to get their heads around the concept that you can understand a cultural perspective without agreeing with it. I think you may be confusing tolerance of a thing with acceptance of a thing. We understand you well enough to know you must be opposed. Obviously just not quite enough to realise that what we really want is to be left alone. But that's fine, we can keep this up forever. Please. Need we rehash recent events?
The State thrives on war.
It is fast becoming all you are.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
-á
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