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Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
62
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Posted - 2014.01.12 20:34:00 -
[31] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Dr Sraggles wrote:Danika Princip wrote:How does it help a new player to 'catch up' if older players are suddenly gaining millions of extra SP? Because older players already have complete frig/dessie skills. Newer players could buy a month or two and no longer be fodder. But a new player in a frigate with complete frigate skills is STILL fodder. They're still flying a frigate, and they don't know the game mechanics...
At least they are flying a ship with a chance? |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
16449
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Posted - 2014.01.12 20:35:00 -
[32] - Quote
Dr Sraggles wrote:
The problem is the truly fundamental problem of eve. A new player is a nearly worthless toon for many, many months.
The idea is to help people leap frog over the worthless period and get to the fun period sooner.
That is a problem with your perception, not the skill system.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
62
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Posted - 2014.01.12 20:36:00 -
[33] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Dr Sraggles wrote:
Who cares if an old toon suddenly has Carrier 5?
Would not the game benefit from more players with Frigate 5?
Everyone with balance in mind cares. The game benefits from players with longevity in mind, not want it now get board 20 minutes later. Eve is not WoW in space and it's skill system is nothing like it either. It is one of the best systems I've come across and allows new players to compete very early on.
Ok, so put a limit on how many SP you can buy (say, 3 months). This would let newer players polish a few things and close the gap.
Older toons, would gain relatively little (ie a few level 5 skills). |
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
62
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Posted - 2014.01.12 20:37:00 -
[34] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Dr Sraggles wrote:
The problem is the truly fundamental problem of eve. A new player is a nearly worthless toon for many, many months.
The idea is to help people leap frog over the worthless period and get to the fun period sooner.
That is a problem with your perception, not the skill system.
Perception is reality when you are mining in a Venture and getting blown away in a T1 fit Rifter.
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Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2234
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Posted - 2014.01.12 20:39:00 -
[35] - Quote
Dr Sraggles wrote:Mag's wrote:Dr Sraggles wrote:
Who cares if an old toon suddenly has Carrier 5?
Would not the game benefit from more players with Frigate 5?
Everyone with balance in mind cares. The game benefits from players with longevity in mind, not want it now get board 20 minutes later. Eve is not WoW in space and it's skill system is nothing like it either. It is one of the best systems I've come across and allows new players to compete very early on. Ok, so put a limit on how many SP you can buy (say, 3 months). This would let newer players polish a few things and close the gap. Older toons, would gain relatively little (ie a few level 5 skills).
Maintain the gap maybe, they're certainly not closing it. Who do you think can stump up the ISK for a PLEX faster, me with my 80 million SP, or a newbie with five million? |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
16449
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 20:40:00 -
[36] - Quote
Dr Sraggles wrote:Mag's wrote:Dr Sraggles wrote:
The problem is the truly fundamental problem of eve. A new player is a nearly worthless toon for many, many months.
The idea is to help people leap frog over the worthless period and get to the fun period sooner.
That is a problem with your perception, not the skill system. Perception is reality when you are mining in a Venture and getting blown away in a T1 fit Rifter. No that is the reality of Eve and happens no matter what ship you fly.
And no, not even a 3 month limit makes this idea any better.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
62
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 20:41:00 -
[37] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Dr Sraggles wrote:Mag's wrote:Dr Sraggles wrote:
Who cares if an old toon suddenly has Carrier 5?
Would not the game benefit from more players with Frigate 5?
Everyone with balance in mind cares. The game benefits from players with longevity in mind, not want it now get board 20 minutes later. Eve is not WoW in space and it's skill system is nothing like it either. It is one of the best systems I've come across and allows new players to compete very early on. Ok, so put a limit on how many SP you can buy (say, 3 months). This would let newer players polish a few things and close the gap. Older toons, would gain relatively little (ie a few level 5 skills). Maintain the gap maybe, they're certainly not closing it. Who do you think can stump up the ISK for a PLEX faster, me with my 80 million SP, or a newbie with five million?
Anyone with $20 in their pocket can buy a PLEX. The idea is to let people who choose to bypass the first frustrating months without buying an abortion in the Character Bazaar.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
226
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Posted - 2014.01.12 20:47:00 -
[38] - Quote
Dr Sraggles wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Nope. While I admire your brevity sir, declarative sentences are not useful. They are with a substantialy protracted and well worn topic like this.
ANY research would have netted you weeks worth of reading on the topic, not to mention the whole aur thing.
If in doubt...do...excessively. |
Vesan Terakol
Sad Face Enterprises
30
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Posted - 2014.01.12 20:48:00 -
[39] - Quote
This discussion is pointless, because:
For the price of one PLEX you already get a month's worth of SP.
All you have to do is wait for that month to pass. Your request is already implemented. |
Felsusguy
Aliastra Gallente Federation
328
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Posted - 2014.01.12 20:51:00 -
[40] - Quote
Let me ask a question. Why? If all you want is a mechanic to help new players catch up, there are far better solutions. You know, ones that don't totally and completely destroy the entire point of the skill system. The Caldari put business before pleasure. The Gallente put business in pleasure. |
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Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
62
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Posted - 2014.01.12 21:05:00 -
[41] - Quote
Felsusguy wrote:Let me ask a question. Why? If all you want is a mechanic to help new players catch up, there are far better solutions. You know, ones that don't totally and completely destroy the entire point of the skill system.
Lets hear those "solutions"? |
Zerlestes
Mechanized Industrial Warfare Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
5
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Posted - 2014.01.12 22:19:00 -
[42] - Quote
lets see even a newbie can kill an veteran if he is smart and the veteran isnt skilled eve isnt easy it should not be easy and not every one has the money for plex for me its a good point in eve that i dont can reach all i want within a few weeks
wait skill enjoy and skill again |
Gawain Edmond
Angry Mustellid
32
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Posted - 2014.01.12 22:28:00 -
[43] - Quote
this idea is bad for all the reasons suggest the last thousand times this idea has been brought forward you've offered nothing new in this post |
Johnson Dragoon
Journey.
0
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Posted - 2014.01.12 22:47:00 -
[44] - Quote
You know what else you can accelerate training with? Implants.... :) |
Dyfchris
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.01.12 22:48:00 -
[45] - Quote
Let me buy Skill Points with Plex. Hell no!!! But you can > Buy plex and Go to https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=277 Problem solved ! |
La'Krul
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
95
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Posted - 2014.01.12 23:04:00 -
[46] - Quote
Dr Sraggles wrote:Topic says it all.
For the Price of a PLEX why not let me buy a month's worth of SP (@ say, 2500 SP/Hr) that I can then allocate as I choose?
Time is precious to us all. I would like to be able to dump that month's worth of SP into those Level 5 skills that are so painful to train. Then I can buy a plex and finally get T2 Torps and Covops 5 or Cyno 5 etc and not twiddle my thumbs on the rest of my skills while I wait.
PLEX prices rise, CCP profits.
No, I don't want to buy another toon with millions of SP that are not in areas I am interested in, I want unallocated SP for PLEX that I can put precisely where I want it.
/discuss
So, you effectively want to see the end of Eve? No thanks. |
Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage Fidelas Constans
192
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Posted - 2014.01.12 23:30:00 -
[47] - Quote
Elena Thiesant wrote:So that the older, richer players can buy skill points with their massive in-game wealth and get even further ahead of newer players? No thanks
because +5 implants and sitting in station is any different? by what metric are we measuring here? LP store weapon cost rebalance |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
914
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 23:34:00 -
[48] - Quote
Dr Sraggles wrote:Topic says it all.
For the Price of a PLEX why not let me buy a month's worth of SP (@ say, 2500 SP/Hr) that I can then allocate as I choose?
Time is precious to us all. I would like to be able to dump that month's worth of SP into those Level 5 skills that are so painful to train. Then I can buy a plex and finally get T2 Torps and Covops 5 or Cyno 5 etc and not twiddle my thumbs on the rest of my skills while I wait.
PLEX prices rise, CCP profits.
No, I don't want to buy another toon with millions of SP that are not in areas I am interested in, I want unallocated SP for PLEX that I can put precisely where I want it.
/discuss
I sympathise but it's a game breaking issue, don't forget we had riots over this type of thing. Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction... |
Pipa Porto
1530
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 00:02:00 -
[49] - Quote
Dr Sraggles wrote:The problem is the truly fundamental problem of eve. A new player is a nearly worthless toon for many, many months.
That's a ridiculous lie, and whoever told you that is the reason why newbies don't stick around longer.
Dr Sraggles wrote:Felsusguy wrote:Let me ask a question. Why? If all you want is a mechanic to help new players catch up, there are far better solutions. You know, ones that don't totally and completely destroy the entire point of the skill system. Lets hear those "solutions"?
Tiericide is one of the big ones. The shrinking of the power gap between T1 and T2 ships is an incredible leveling force. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Sigras
Conglomo
648
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 00:34:00 -
[50] - Quote
Dr Sraggles wrote:Topic says it all.
For the Price of a PLEX why not let me buy a month's worth of SP (@ say, 2500 SP/Hr) that I can then allocate as I choose?
Time is precious to us all. I would like to be able to dump that month's worth of SP into those Level 5 skills that are so painful to train. Then I can buy a plex and finally get T2 Torps and Covops 5 or Cyno 5 etc and not twiddle my thumbs on the rest of my skills while I wait.
PLEX prices rise, CCP profits.
No, I don't want to buy another toon with millions of SP that are not in areas I am interested in, I want unallocated SP for PLEX that I can put precisely where I want it.
/discuss Im going to try to be as constructive as possible with this post to explain why this is a bad idea.
Eve is a game all about economics, and basic economics tells us that if something is rare and fairly useful then it's fairly valuable. Economics also tells us that if that thing were to become much more common it would be much less valuable. EG if someone found a cheap easy way to make lead into gold, then gold would not be worth very much.
Ive been playing consistently since early 2007, that makes me not super old, but im not brand new either. My character has over 120 million SP which is fairly uncommon and that makes him fairly valuable. Now if anyone could easily get 120 million SP on their character over night then my character would be much more common and therefore much less valuable.
The reason the character bazaar is ok is because the amount of SP in game hasnt changed when someone buys something from the character bazaar.
TL;DR Essentially what this would do is cause "SP inflation" therefore making all the other characters in the game worth comparatively less |
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Felsusguy
Aliastra Gallente Federation
329
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Posted - 2014.01.13 00:49:00 -
[51] - Quote
Dr Sraggles wrote:Felsusguy wrote:Let me ask a question. Why? If all you want is a mechanic to help new players catch up, there are far better solutions. You know, ones that don't totally and completely destroy the entire point of the skill system. Lets hear those "solutions"? One solution might be to reintroduce the "new character training modifier", so new characters train skills faster in the first month or so. Another solution could be reducing the gap in effectiveness between Tech I and Tech II modules (at least for the really bad offenders, like the ones where the Tech II variant is twice as effective as the Tech I variant with no real drawbacks. Those cases do exist and they are terrible).
Though to be honest, any solution is probably better than yours. Even removing the skill system entirely would be a better solution than allowing players to buy instant skillpoints for money, and that's saying something.
Notice: I do not necessarily endorse the ideas mentioned above. They were just examples. The Caldari put business before pleasure. The Gallente put business in pleasure. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
4793
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 05:48:00 -
[52] - Quote
Dr Sraggles wrote:Because older players already have complete frig/dessie skills. Newer players could buy a month or two and no longer be fodder.
So spend the dollars to buy a Cerebral Accelerator for that new character on the new account. Or accept that SP only buy a certain amount of advantage in the game, and throwing dollars after SP is only going to help you if you know what to do with those SP, which a genuine new player doesn't.
The most important asset in the game is friends. You don't need to have frigate 5 if you have 5 times as many friends as the guy you're shooting, regardless of SP difference. Bringing more guns and more mid slots to the fight is more important than bringing more SP to the fight. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Crazy Legs Finnigan
Muhammad's Morning Breath
0
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Posted - 2014.01.13 06:06:00 -
[53] - Quote
This idea is horrible. I'm going to wardec your corp OP |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
110
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Posted - 2014.01.13 06:25:00 -
[54] - Quote
Another key point regarding this is that in any given situation a character will only be using a subset of skills that are relevant to the current situation. A 2 month old character with 4 mil focused purely in frigate combat skills would be theoretically in a better position than a 10 year old 200 mil + SP character with only 3 mil SP invested in frigate combat skills.
The 10 year old chars massive industrial ability won't help them one bit, however their 10 years game experience will most likely mitigate the 1 mil Sp difference in frigate combat. An older character can just do more, and even then there isn't so much that a young character can't do.
My character is 7 mil sp from a little over 3 months training yet I am mining in a barge, building starbase structures, modules and ships, have multiple PI colonies, flying everything up to Battleships, and now engaging in trade activities.
I'd say that Eve allows you the freedom to become very involved very quickly in my opinion. |
Drake Doe
SVER Bloodpack Insidious Empire
442
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Posted - 2014.01.13 06:33:00 -
[55] - Quote
No amount of bling will allow a lvl 1 amarr bs to match the performance of a all lvl 5 one. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" ---Evernub-- |
Ordo Malus
Shadows Of The Requiem The Unthinkables
20
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Posted - 2014.01.13 08:28:00 -
[56] - Quote
What a **** ******* post... Please lock on the premise of a douche bag trolling. (Not reference myself, although I am a douche bag). |
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks The Volition Cult
644
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Posted - 2014.01.13 11:59:00 -
[57] - Quote
No. It was no by popular opinion the first time this came up.
It was no the second time it came up... and the third, the fourth and every time since.
All the arguments from all the times someone has suggested this are all stored in the forum search or can be easily searched for on Google. Go and have a look at them if you want the reasons why it's a bad idea and won't ever get implemented. It certainly isn't the responsibility of those on this forum to reiterate them again because you're too lazy to look, OP.
Seriously, if you feel the need to get somewhere faster than you're doing go and play something else. It will be better for you as patience is one of the primary requirements to play most of EVE. |
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
566
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 12:07:00 -
[58] - Quote
Dr Sraggles wrote: The problem is the truly fundamental problem of eve. A new player is a nearly worthless toon for many, many months.
The idea is to help people leap frog over the worthless period and get to the fun period sooner.
This statement is false. suicide ganking chars are often a few days old. it is even faster getting a reasonable t1 tackle frig. nobody hates extra tackle. frig 5 is what 9 days? so assault frig or a ceptor can be done within the first month if you want. are these useless ships? i know i was partaking in huge null fleet battles within 2 months of starting EVE. here is a list of all the fiat currencies that didn't end up at zero value.....and here is a list of the places where a currency pegged to a real commodity has successfully co-existed with compound interest....-á Here is a physics professor explaining why sustainable growth isn't a thing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY |
Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
237
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 12:46:00 -
[59] - Quote
Crazy Legs Finnigan wrote:This idea is horrible. I'm going to wardec your corp OP Ha! If in doubt...do...excessively. |
Jint Hikaru
Truly Transdimensional The Nova Foundry
1093
|
Posted - 2014.01.13 12:53:00 -
[60] - Quote
Dr Sraggles wrote:Mag's wrote:Dr Sraggles wrote:Danika Princip wrote:
No, not at all. Buying an officer mod doesn't suddenly allow you to fly amarr battleships when you had no ammar skills at all five minutes ago...
Training Amarr BS 1 takes minutes, then bling can make a huge difference in performance. Using one Plex to get Amarr BS 5 is the end of the world? It's not the end of the world if you have to train for it, like everyone else then. Your idea is nothing new and doesn't solve any problems. (No, you wanting SP NOW isn't a problem) The problem it solves is allowing new players to accelerate their training.
No it doesn't. It allows RICH players to accelerate their training.
Basically unbalancing the most balanced thing in the Eve universe (the skillpoint system) in favor of those players who can afford to pay extra $$$ or ISK.
Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. |
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