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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 37 post(s) |
Razzor Death
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
249
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Posted - 2014.01.16 00:25:00 -
[871] - Quote
Querns wrote: Your definition of income and CCP's definition differ, FYI.
You consider any increase in your wallet to be income. CCP defines income as "activities which increase the total amount of isk in the game." Highsec missions and incursions derive a nontrivial amount of their reward in LP, which is designed to reduce total isk in the game. Nullsec combat anomalies directly create isk. CCP is right to be wary of the total number of "isk faucets" which exist in the game, and while I don't necessarily know if tuning nullsec combat anomaly bounties in such a way is the right decision, it's certainly one effective way of going about it.
A valid point, call me old fashioned but I would much rather CCP went to all the Regions filled with nothing but 24/7 botting renter trash and started dealing with them before making judgments on how much isk nullsec is generating. |
Dibblerette
Ships Chat
169
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Posted - 2014.01.16 00:26:00 -
[872] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote: Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.
Are you serious?
You have Faction Warfare, Incursions and L4s that are disgusting amounts of income, and you pick on null rats? |
greiton starfire
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
47
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Posted - 2014.01.16 00:27:00 -
[873] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:It would be nice to get some dev &/or CSM feedback on the issues brought up.
also: Why wasn't this first released in the F&I forum for feedback. Does CCP consider the proposed version a final draft? Based on feedback, we're looking at three things: - Time to get loot - lot of good points that the time needs to be increased - Interceptors too good - we're looking at ways to decrease the efficiency of using an interceptor to steal - Too effective as warp bubble - we're looking at making it less viable Thanks for the feedback so far. Any test feedback from Sisi would also be much appreciated.
ah I get it, you only read suggestions from players who don't actually live in null sec. cause every null sec player has told you why they would never use it, and you addressed none of the concerns they have brought up.
for example,
risk far to hi for reward adds hassle to an activity which already has more risk/ less reward than other activities with the same skill set as it stands neut/red shows up everyone docks so no offensive use
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EI Digin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1659
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Posted - 2014.01.16 00:27:00 -
[874] - Quote
Querns wrote:Between you, us, and N3's rental programs, we are generating trillions of isk a month in rent. Renters, in a large amount, generate that isk from ratting.
Here is a graph from fanfest 2013. http://i.imgur.com/tO8lW9C.png In March of 2013, approximately 30 trillion isk comes from "Bounty Prizes". You'll have to excuse me but this is the most recent statistic I could find.
The isk we get from renters isn't really much in the grand scheme of things. The question I have always had was, how much of these bounty prizes are coming from nullsec. Too bad no one has ever told us
There is room to increase this to 33 or 35 billion (maybe even 36 or 40 billion), perhaps in order to have more fairer gameplay you have to rebalance some areas of the game which are literal isk printing factories which don't provide the risk factor that nullsec does. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
164
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Posted - 2014.01.16 00:28:00 -
[875] - Quote
Dibblerette wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote: Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.
Are you serious? You have Faction Warfare, Incursions and L4s that are disgusting amounts of income, and you pick on null rats? Yes, because that's the right place to do it.
READ THE FOLLOWING BELOW TO UNDERSTAND WHY:
Querns wrote: Your definition of income and CCP's definition differ, FYI.
You consider any increase in your wallet to be income. CCP defines income as "activities which increase the total amount of isk in the game." Highsec missions and incursions derive a nontrivial amount of their reward in LP, which is designed to reduce total isk in the game. Nullsec combat anomalies directly create isk. CCP is right to be wary of the total number of "isk faucets" which exist in the game, and while I don't necessarily know if tuning nullsec combat anomaly bounties in such a way is the right decision, it's certainly one effective way of going about it.
This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Angry Mustache
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
97
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 00:28:00 -
[876] - Quote
The Weaselior/Aryth dunktrain has no brakes An official Member of the Goonswarm Federation Complaints Department. Were you wronged by a member of our fine space guild? We can get you the compensation you deserve. |
Razzor Death
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
249
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Posted - 2014.01.16 00:28:00 -
[877] - Quote
Eve Online 2014: Yes, we made ratting more cancerous |
Kais Fiddler
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
34
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Posted - 2014.01.16 00:30:00 -
[878] - Quote
Angry Mustache wrote:The Weaselior/Aryth dunktrain has no brakes It relies on bad posting by ccp devs, however. Which gradually will ground to a stop, sadly. |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
800
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 00:30:00 -
[879] - Quote
Dibblerette wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote: Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.
Are you serious? You have Faction Warfare, Incursions and L4s that are disgusting amounts of income, and you pick on null rats? All of those are also sinks due to the ISK lost when you cash out the LP, FW being a complete removal of ISK because it's all LP earns instead of ISK. I'm not saying they don't make crazy amounts of ISK but there is a loss of pure ISK whenever LP is used, NullSec income is pure ISK with none of it being traded in.
The player may make good ISK from other players when selling LP Store items but this is just ISK moving around not the creation of it. Creation comes from Bounties, Sleeper Tags and Mission Rewards only AFAIK. Lieutenant Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District |
Fix Sov
4
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Posted - 2014.01.16 00:31:00 -
[880] - Quote
Razzor Death wrote:Eve Online 2014: Yes, we made ratting more cancerous I didn't think this was possible. The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change. |
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greiton starfire
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
47
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Posted - 2014.01.16 00:34:00 -
[881] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Lady Naween wrote: maybe it is because I am blonde and a woman but where will the fight be?
As I outlined in my post there wont be any new fights. There MIGHT be one short structure bash, and that is it. And for what reward? None that I can see, nor can those with more math then I.
so.. can you please explain where the conflicts will be? Help us please understand your vision because I think a lot of us are missing it.
please?
If you use an ESS as a ratter your income will be higher than pre-1.1. If hostiles enter the system you have various choices in how to respond, some of them can lead to fights, it-¦s up to you. Don-¦t assume that anyone that stumbles into the system will automatically be able to steal everything, again, the likelihood of this is up to you. It-¦s only a nerf if you choose it to be.
IE no sandbox, use our feature no one wants or be punished. yeah this game is going in a very bad direction for me |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
165
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Posted - 2014.01.16 00:35:00 -
[882] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:Querns wrote:Between you, us, and N3's rental programs, we are generating trillions of isk a month in rent. Renters, in a large amount, generate that isk from ratting. Here is a graph from fanfest 2013. http://i.imgur.com/tO8lW9C.png In March of 2013, approximately 30 trillion isk comes from "Bounty Prizes". You'll have to excuse me but this is the most recent statistic I could find. The isk we get from renters isn't really much in the grand scheme of things. The question I have always had was, how much of these bounty prizes are coming from nullsec. Too bad no one has ever told us There is room to increase this to 33 or 35 billion (maybe even 36 or 40 billion), perhaps in order to have more fairer gameplay you have to rebalance some areas of the game which are literal isk printing factories which don't provide the risk factor that nullsec does. I use the rental program example as a point of reference because it represents activities which actually mint new isk from the ether, compared to LP things, whose value is primarily derived from destroying isk by converting it with the LP into items which are then sold on the market with previously-existing isk.
An example: http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=15766 A FN 10mn afterburner destroys 4 million isk for every 12,000 LP used to make it. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Anhenka
Hard Knocks Inc. Kill It With Fire
95
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Posted - 2014.01.16 00:36:00 -
[883] - Quote
Give up guys, it's obvious that one guy has the reins on this project and that this is SonicClover's darling project, for which foul player input is not allowed to effect.
When the players from all parts of eve told Team SuperFriends a million and one times the initial proposed stats for the dscan inhibitor needed to be toned back a bit, whoever was in charge there took the advice of the people who combined play this game tens of thousands more than any dev and toned it down to a point where most people could agree on.
But when those same people look upon the ESS and declare it a poorly trainwreck, suddenly the only acceptable input is innocuous questions about market seeding and access time.
SoniClover, I guess at the end of the day, you don't have to listen to us. But in advance: We told you so. |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
895
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 00:36:00 -
[884] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.
Called it.
Dibblerette wrote: Are you serious?
You have Faction Warfare, Incursions and L4s that are disgusting amounts of income, and you pick on null rats?
Fac War, L4, and Incursions all come with an isk sink in the form of an LP store, which you pretty much have to use to maximize isk/hr. Incursions have also been nerfed.
How out of date are those minutes again? |
Funless Saisima
Strange Energy Gentlemen's Agreement
47
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Posted - 2014.01.16 00:37:00 -
[885] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Tippia wrote:So, I'm just going to have to ask (again)GǪ CCP SoniClover wrote:Based on feedback, we're looking at three things: - Time to get loot - lot of good points that the time needs to be increased - Interceptors too good - we're looking at ways to decrease the efficiency of using an interceptor to steal - Too effective as warp bubble - we're looking at making it less viable Have you looked at the reasoning for a blanket income nerf for rank-and-file null inhabitants? If you have, could you please present it for general scorn and derision critique? The entire idea behind this addition hinges on such a nerf being at all sensible, and you have so far not managed to explain why it is. This makes the entire addition senseless as it currently stands. Put another way: what is the underlying design goal here? What are you trying to accomplish? I tend to avoid answering posts using inflammatory phrasing, but I actually think your signature answers your question pretty well.
There was nothing inflamatory in that post. Perhaps you should http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgvM7av1o1Q&list=PL4ACF917EAB70339A |
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Origin. Black Legion.
385
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 00:40:00 -
[886] - Quote
How many manhours were destroyed working on the ESS? No sig. |
Nyan Lafisques
Legion Du Lys Insidious Empire
3
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 00:42:00 -
[887] - Quote
Why not just add LP for killing rats in Null, or something similar ? Droneland is already bad, and now we have to deal with even worst bounties ? Obviously nobody's gonna use the ESS so...
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
165
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Posted - 2014.01.16 00:44:00 -
[888] - Quote
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:How many manhours were destroyed working on the ESS? Fortunately, anyone with any actual experience in this field knows that manhours are both A) a poor way to measure software development efficacy, and 2) are not generally fungible between different programming projects, so this sort of question is useless at best. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6038
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 00:44:00 -
[889] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote: How out of date are those minutes again?
They are the most recent minutes and there has been no significant changes to nullsec ratting between then and now that would suppose it was out of date. SoniClover is wrong about isk faucets being a problem, and I know that because the independent CCP employee whose job it is to look at the data and understand what it means reviewed the data closely and said so. "I can hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Jase Fairimor
Erebus Down Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
5
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Posted - 2014.01.16 00:44:00 -
[890] - Quote
I keep hearing that if you use it correctly you gain 5%.
I have to argue that is most likely not true as the time it takes to manage it and protect it are keeping "steel from target "so to speak and is time you aren't ratting therefore ...
Overall isk/hr will go down in most cases I feel.
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PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
896
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Posted - 2014.01.16 00:46:00 -
[891] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote: How out of date are those minutes again?
They are the most recent minutes and there has been no significant changes to nullsec ratting between then and now that would suppose it was out of date. SoniClover is wrong about isk faucets being a problem, and I know that because the independent CCP employee whose job it is to look at the data and understand what it means reviewed the data closely and said so. The same independant employee that said tech was fine? |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2976
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 00:47:00 -
[892] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.
Now we're getting somewhere. I'd ask for figures on the breakdown on ISK generated by bounties to demonstrate what proportion was generated by 0.0 as opposed to lowsec and highsec, but I don't expect those figures to be forthcoming. Post on the Eve-o forums with a Goonswarm Federation character that drinking bleach is bad for you, and 20 forum warriors will hospitalise themselves trying to prove you wrong. |
Andrea Keuvo
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
112
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 00:48:00 -
[893] - Quote
Kais Fiddler wrote:Angry Mustache wrote:The Weaselior/Aryth dunktrain has no brakes It relies on bad posting by ccp devs, however. Which gradually will ground to a stop, sadly.
After the economist report dunking I'll be shocked if we get another. I just don't understand the outright refusal to even consider that this might have been a bad idea. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6042
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 00:48:00 -
[894] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote: The same independant employee that said tech was fine?
I don't know, you find me a specific quote like I found and we'll discuss. But even assuming you find one (and I doubt it, I assume you've got no idea what you're talking about) tech was not an economic problem, which is EyjoG's specialty, it was a game balance problem, which is not. SoniClover claimed the bounties were an economic problem, and he's wrong. "I can hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1169
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 00:48:00 -
[895] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.
the amount of ISK you can make in Nullsec is still pretty damn low if you look at the work and coordination it takes to be able to harvest it, especially compared to income based on highsec missions, wormhole PvE and Factional Warfare ( i know that FW is an ISK-sink)
If you want to minimize inflation you should increase the costs for other stuff in the game. especially the prices for production lines in highsec stations are ridiculously low and could easily be increased by a factor of 100 without hurting anyone producing anything in highsec
CCP SoniClover wrote: This is subjective. Some will feel the risk is not worth the gain, some will feel the gain is worth the risk.
nope, it's not. it's to low for anyone to seriously consider putting down an ESS without having two blue regions in each direction.
once again:
The idea is great, the numbers need tuning. if you want to minimize inflation, take money from highsec industrialists by increasing the cost of production lines and/or sales tax
We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
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Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA
232
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Posted - 2014.01.16 00:51:00 -
[896] - Quote
It's absolutely stupid to argue with a Dev about whether or not he's correct in that a huge amount of ISK (bounties) come in from nullsec.
They have the numbers. We don't.
That doesn't make the ESS any better of an idea, though.
This game needs more simplified and streamlined. understandable mechanics.
Not weird, arbitrary oddities... |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1169
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 00:53:00 -
[897] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote: The same independant employee that said tech was fine?
I don't know, you find me a specific quote like I found and we'll discuss. But even assuming you find one (and I doubt it, I assume you've got no idea what you're talking about) tech was not an economic problem, which is EyjoG's specialty, it was a game balance problem, which is not. SoniClover claimed the bounties were an economic problem, and he's wrong.
even if SoniClover was right, the solution he proposes is still wrong ;)
We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
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Omanth Bathana
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
79
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Posted - 2014.01.16 00:54:00 -
[898] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote: They have the numbers. We don't.
That doesn't make the ESS any better of an idea, though.
This is entirely the point Weaselior is trying to make. The same numbers CCP has from its in-house economist were shared with the CSM and subsequently made public. The entire point is that, according the player's understanding of the role of the CSM, we have the same numbers. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6042
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 00:55:00 -
[899] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:It's absolutely stupid to argue with a Dev about whether or not he's correct in that a huge amount of ISK (bounties) come in from nullsec.
They have the numbers. We don't.
That doesn't make the ESS any better of an idea, though.
This game needs more simplified and streamlined. understandable mechanics.
Not weird, arbitrary oddities... CCP has the numbers. That doesn't mean SoniClover looked at them, or understood what they mean. That's why I'm pointing to a CCP employee who did look at the numbers, did understand what they mean, and said the opposite of what SoniClover is saying here.
I don't have the numbers, but EyjoG does. "I can hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
897
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 00:58:00 -
[900] - Quote
Weaselior wrote: SoniClover claimed the bounties were an economic problem, and he's wrong.
Ah yes, I forgot that Goonswarm receives the same up to the minute metrics from CCP that are available to the devs. My apologies, Goonsire. Clearly, that's how you know he's wrong, right? Right?
Honestly, most of the posts in this thread can be summed up as: "Boohooohooo, I don't want to fight for my 5%" |
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