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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8428
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Posted - 2014.01.15 13:00:00 -
[31] - Quote
dexington wrote:Advanced spaceship command = capital. Spaceship command = sub capital.
This would only mean the Orca does not fit the rule. Why do you insist that freighters and JF are capital ships? A definition of capital ship that includes those two classes makes a lot less sense and is significantly less useful to us than if we use the definitions I provided.
With your definition, we can't say things like "capital ships can't use gates", "capital ships can't enter highsec", "capital ships all have jump drives", "capital ships can fit capital modules", etc. With my definition, all of these statements are true and they're consistent with what all of the attributes of actual capital ships in the game. In addition, CCP's rules for capital ships already in highsec are clearly written with the definition of capital ship that I've given in this thread, as opposed to yours. The only holdout you have is the market categorization and the size, both of which are demonstrably irrelevant. My EVE Videos |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
2225
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Posted - 2014.01.15 13:08:00 -
[32] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:dexington wrote:
I that not like arguing that the whale isn't a mammal, because it lives in the ocean?
No, it's like arguing that a whale isn't a fish just because it lives in the ocean. a whale is a spouting fish with a horizontal tail |
Tappits
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
32
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Posted - 2014.01.15 13:10:00 -
[33] - Quote
dexington wrote: Advanced spaceship command = capital. Spaceship command = sub capital.
This would only mean the Orca does not fit the rule.
Which is totally fine as the orca does not have the cap ship tag so it cannot be DDed. There is no need to reclassify ships just for the sake of it. Having random things just because we can is fine. You donGÇÖt need to be able to put everything in its own special box.
Also I would like my Badger Mk2 back and my lteron Mk 1 2 3 4 5
Who cares about having Nanofibres in hull upgrades and not listed under propulsion upgrades makes sense or not. Why does it have to make sense? Why can you not jump carriers threw gates because itGÇÖs Too much mass or something but you can jump a Freighter full of stuff no problem. Why does it have to make sense? Most things donGÇÖt like how we fly in a fluid filled space and not real empty space which is why we have things like ship speed limits and the fact that you can ram a Frig into a titan and bump it out the wayGǪ. There are many things that donGÇÖt make sense but thatGÇÖs what makes eve special its not perfect. There are things wrong and they make it quirky and stuff.
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dexington
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1057
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Posted - 2014.01.15 13:13:00 -
[34] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:dexington wrote:Advanced spaceship command = capital. Spaceship command = sub capital.
This would only mean the Orca does not fit the rule. Why do you insist that freighters and JF are capital ships? A definition of capital ship that includes those two classes makes a lot less sense and is significantly less useful to us than if we use the definitions I provided.
Okay jump freighters are sub caps, that are build from capital components and require advanced spaceship command skill used by capital ships, but are clearly not capital ships... it's all makes so much more sense now... I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8429
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Posted - 2014.01.15 13:38:00 -
[35] - Quote
dexington wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:dexington wrote:Advanced spaceship command = capital. Spaceship command = sub capital.
This would only mean the Orca does not fit the rule. Why do you insist that freighters and JF are capital ships? A definition of capital ship that includes those two classes makes a lot less sense and is significantly less useful to us than if we use the definitions I provided. Okay jump freighters are sub caps, that are build from capital components Black ops require capital components as well.
dexington wrote:and require advanced spaceship command skill used by capital ships, But not the capital ships skill. My EVE Videos |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
18869
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Posted - 2014.01.15 14:10:00 -
[36] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:dexington wrote:and require advanced spaceship command skill used by capital ships, But not the capital ships skill. Yeah, I think the confusing thing there is that we actually have three tiers of GÇ£commandGÇ¥ skills, but generally only distinguish between two groups.
All three of those GÇö Spaceship Command, Advanced Spaceship Command, Capital Ships GÇö do the same thing: provide an agility bonus for ships in their class (and higher). The last one obviously only affects capital ships, hence the name, and the first one obviously affects all spaceshipsGǪ but that middle tier is the odd one out. It has no distinct class attached to it; it's mainly used as a time sink secondary prereq for larger-than-battleship-sized ships; and as an encore, I seem to recall that it is now rendered completely useless at lvl IGÇôIV (since all freighters now require it at V to train their respective skilsl).
So the only question there is whether GÇ£advancedGÇ¥ ships are caps or subcaps, and the fact that none of these ships exhibit any of the characteristics of the ships that are subject to the capship limitations (or advantages) and that there is a distinction between GÇ£advancedGÇ¥ and GÇ£capitalGÇ¥ skills to begin with seems to suggest that they're not meant to be the same. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Julius Rigel
120
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Posted - 2014.01.15 14:16:00 -
[37] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:People don't search market categories based upon lore, they search based upon the intended use of the module. If you want to make your ship faster and more agile, you'd probably think to look in propulsion upgrades first, which is where the nanofibers should be. Tough cookies, that's how the market is arranged. Same way PLEX falls under "trade goods", even though nobody is going to think to themselves "I need some more game time, I guess the first place I'll look is next to the fedos and passengers". If this were FAID, and you had a well-formulated proposal, I'd tell you it makes perfect sense, in your new envisioned system, to put the nanofibers next to the overdrives and istabs.
James Amril-Kesh wrote:The Capital Industrial Ships skill is only for the Rorqual, and it requires the Capital Ships skill anyway (the ship also requires the Capital Ships skill at level 2 to fly it anyway). The Orca requires neither Capital Ships nor Capital Industrial Ships. It doesn't even require Advanced Spaceship Command. That's what I said, isn't it? Capital ships are any and all and only the ships that require the "Capital Ships" skill. Do YOU like to undock? |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8437
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Posted - 2014.01.15 14:33:00 -
[38] - Quote
Julius Rigel wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:The Capital Industrial Ships skill is only for the Rorqual, and it requires the Capital Ships skill anyway (the ship also requires the Capital Ships skill at level 2 to fly it anyway). The Orca requires neither Capital Ships nor Capital Industrial Ships. It doesn't even require Advanced Spaceship Command. That's what I said, isn't it? Capital ships are any and all and only the ships that require the "Capital Ships" skill. So you agree with me. I was under the impression you were trying to make a counter argument and failing. My EVE Videos |
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
582
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Posted - 2014.01.15 15:06:00 -
[39] - Quote
could someone tell me what the new mats for building freighters and jump freighters will be? or is the existance of all those capital parts inconvienient to this argument about pointless categorisation? here is a list of all the fiat currencies that didn't end up at zero value.....and here is a list of the places where a currency pegged to a real commodity has successfully co-existed with compound interest....-á Here is a physics professor explaining why sustainable growth isn't a thing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8443
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Posted - 2014.01.15 15:46:00 -
[40] - Quote
It's not a useful tool for categorization, because black ops also require some capital parts and I think we can all agree those are not capital ships. My EVE Videos |
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Aiwha
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
693
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Posted - 2014.01.15 15:56:00 -
[41] - Quote
Installing a nanofiber hull onto your ship isn't a hull upgrade? We're winning the war if it says so on CAOD! -á
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8443
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Posted - 2014.01.15 16:18:00 -
[42] - Quote
Aiwha wrote:Installing a nanofiber hull onto your ship isn't a hull upgrade? Not any more so than an MLU is a weapon upgrade, but they used to be listed as such iirc. My EVE Videos |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
18870
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Posted - 2014.01.15 17:36:00 -
[43] - Quote
Aiwha wrote:Installing a nanofiber hull onto your ship isn't a hull upgrade? They are in the same sense as installing a 1600mm plate is a propulsion upgradeGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
ElQuirko
Black Dragon Fighting Society The Devil's Tattoo
3187
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Posted - 2014.01.15 17:46:00 -
[44] - Quote
How about any ship that uses the skill "Capital ships"? Dodixie > Hek |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8450
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Posted - 2014.01.15 17:48:00 -
[45] - Quote
ElQuirko wrote:How about any ship that uses the skill "Capital ships"? Which is essentially the same as everything else I listed. My EVE Videos |
Tialano Utrigas
Critical Mass Inc. Nexus Fleet
89
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Posted - 2014.01.15 18:30:00 -
[46] - Quote
If you use a lighter material on a vehicle with the intent on improving its speed, its considered an upgrade, regardless of what the drawback maybe. |
E-2C Hawkeye
State War Academy Caldari State
456
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Posted - 2014.01.15 18:39:00 -
[47] - Quote
How we define anything in eve will NEVER determine it use. Just because you place a definition on something doesnGÇÖt mean now all of a sudden because its defined that it will have to be used a certain way. Sandbox...remember? |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
4321
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Posted - 2014.01.15 18:41:00 -
[48] - Quote
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:How we define anything in eve will NEVER determine it use. Just because you place a definition on something doesnGÇÖt mean now all of a sudden because its defined that it will have to be used a certain way. Sandbox...remember?
I was thinking that same thing Yesterday when i joined a ceptor fleet in my Nano Tackle Chimera. I used TONS of K-Y jelly getting through those gates, but i kept up, even killed a Brutix! |
Logical 101
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
340
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Posted - 2014.01.15 18:48:00 -
[49] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Defining capital ships
James Amril-Kesh wrote: Any ship that requires the capital ships skill Couldn't we just stop here? |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
3075
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Posted - 2014.01.15 18:56:00 -
[50] - Quote
CCP's definition seems to be, Capital Ship = any ship built with capital ship components.
Personally I prefer: any ship that requires the Capital Ships skill, but that doesn't include freighters or Orca. |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8450
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Posted - 2014.01.15 18:58:00 -
[51] - Quote
Logical 101 wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Defining capital ships James Amril-Kesh wrote: Any ship that requires the capital ships skill Couldn't we just stop here? The rest is demonstrating why it makes sense to restrict it to this definition. My EVE Videos |
Thead Enco
Killing is Business Get Off My Lawn
49
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Posted - 2014.01.15 19:08:00 -
[52] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I propose that freighters and jump freighters be moved into the separate category of Freighters, which will encompass Standard Freighters and Advanced Freighters. The Orca would be moved into its own category of Industrial Command Ship. Technically supercapitals shouldn't be on the market at all, since they cannot be docked except by GM intervention.
(And move nanofibers to propulsion modules, seriously.)
Why? "Freight Club" will still pop your jump freighters going thru the trade pipes
"Any man who must say 'I am the king' is no true king."
Tywin Lannister-á |
Baali Tekitsu
Herrscher der Zeit Test Alliance Please Ignore
612
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Posted - 2014.01.15 19:10:00 -
[53] - Quote
Posting in very well hidden slowcat thread RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE |
DRGaius Baltar
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
81
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Posted - 2014.01.15 19:12:00 -
[54] - Quote
Baali Tekitsu wrote:Posting in very well hidden slowcat thread
To whom who thinks "Slowcats are TOO OP" |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8451
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Posted - 2014.01.15 19:26:00 -
[55] - Quote
This has nothing to do with fighting them in a sov war and even less to do with this thread. My EVE Videos |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
893
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Posted - 2014.01.15 19:40:00 -
[56] - Quote
Ah, this old chestnut again.
Can you provide compelling reasons why devs should allocate time and resources towards changing the existing definition of capital ships?
Keep in mind "It bothers pedants such as myself" is not a compelling reason. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8455
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Posted - 2014.01.15 20:26:00 -
[57] - Quote
What existing definition? CCP contradicts themselves on the definition. The time and resources involved would probably also be on the order of 10 minutes for a single dev, if even that. It would be done for the same reason module, ammo, and implant name changes were done. My EVE Videos |
E-2C Hawkeye
State War Academy Caldari State
456
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Posted - 2014.01.15 21:16:00 -
[58] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:What existing definition? CCP contradicts themselves on the definition. The time and resources involved would probably also be on the order of 10 minutes for a single dev, if even that. It would be done for the same reason module, ammo, and implant name changes were done. Why does it need defined? What will defining it change? Why not just come out and say what you REALLY are looking to accomplish? |
DRGaius Baltar
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
81
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Posted - 2014.01.15 21:21:00 -
[59] - Quote
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:What existing definition? CCP contradicts themselves on the definition. The time and resources involved would probably also be on the order of 10 minutes for a single dev, if even that. It would be done for the same reason module, ammo, and implant name changes were done. Why does it need defined? What will defining it change? Why not just come out and say what you REALLY are looking to accomplish?
Because the big bad "Archon" is giving the CFC sleepless nights, and literally cannot find their bollocks to undock caps unless it's on random ratters running havens without a counter to them. |
Jack Miton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi Unmentionables
2919
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Posted - 2014.01.15 21:50:00 -
[60] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:Jack Miton wrote:If its 'Capital Sized Vessel' attribute is '1', then it's a capital ship. This attribute can be seen in EVEMon and most likely other similar programs.
Basically these ships are capitals:
titans supers carriers dreads freighters jump freighters rorqual
Orca is not a capital, even though it needs cap parts to build.
/thread No. That means its the size of a cap. It doesnt qualify it as a cap right, im sure that's exactly what ccp meant when they put in a 'this-is-a-damn-capital-ship' flag...
tbh, dunno what i expected getting into a simple question thread in GD. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ |
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