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Aluka 7th
119
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Posted - 2014.01.15 18:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi,
Could someone give me their take on why people use predominantly Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field instead of Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field when they have same bonuses but Navy one costs 20+% more? This is just one of examples but there are multiple modules where even better one is cheaper but for some reason its not utilized.
Tnx, A7
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Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1256
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Posted - 2014.01.15 18:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
because of caldari RPer dorks and other people that decided to buy them from the LP store. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
56
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Posted - 2014.01.15 18:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
why use faction invuls at all after all deadspace are better even the "cheap" c-type |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1256
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Posted - 2014.01.15 18:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:why use faction invuls at all after all deadspace are better even the "cheap" c-type
Compared to pithum c-types, the DG invuln is cheaper, and uses less cpu and capacitor. Compared to the gistum c-type, the DG invuln is better, because it uses less cap and is identical in every other respect. It is similar in price. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Aluka 7th
119
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Posted - 2014.01.15 18:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
My theory is that people just copy paste fits from other mission runners and don't do any research or adaptations of fits. |
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
62
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Posted - 2014.01.15 19:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
I'm pretty sure your theory is correct.
Lazy people copy and paste a fitting from somewhere, and don't bother to think about variant fittings for themselves.
CN Invulns were probably cheaper than DG ones back in the day when the magical fitting was first written up. Since then, so many people have copied it that demand for CN Invulns has gone up, therefore price has gone up. |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
332
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Posted - 2014.01.15 19:12:00 -
[7] - Quote
Personally I don't understand why people use faction/deadspace tanking mods on level 4 PVE fits all. |
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
56
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Posted - 2014.01.15 20:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Personally I don't understand why people use faction/deadspace tanking mods on level 4 PVE fits all.
tbh i understand it but i dont use it. U can bring a 3 tank domi with deadspace stuff up to the lvl of a 5 slot tanked domi. Faction Missile Launchers are more efficient for mission running and faction damage amps give more damage which would make missions faster. Downside is u run a medium to high risk of suicide ganks singling you out. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
1997
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Posted - 2014.01.15 20:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
MIMAF. Except for LP. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
600
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Posted - 2014.01.15 20:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Personally I don't understand why people use faction/deadspace tanking mods on level 4 PVE fits all.
Because some birds are utterly ridiculous to try and fit at T2 alone, for example - CNR. |
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Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1256
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Posted - 2014.01.15 20:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Personally I don't understand why people use faction/deadspace tanking mods on level 4 PVE fits all.
and there are those of us who would wonder why you would ever not use any. You do get something for your money. Like being able to dedicate less slots to tanking, or getting a more cap efficient tank, or having longer capacitor life, or longer overheat time. You also can fly your ship with less of a mind to incoming damage, i guess. There's also a lot of CPU to be saved. Faction/deadpsace tank is also a boon when omnitanking.
You do have a point though, given 200m in mods to fit a machariel, i might get better performance spending the money on faction damage mods and using a t2 tank. But still its a question of 3% more dps vs 25% better/stronger/bigger tank for the same amount of isk. Speaking as someone who missions occasionally and doesn't know them all particularly well, I guess I feel better with the 25% stronger tank (but really i just choose both because I don't mission near gankville)
also this:
Morrigan LeSante wrote: Because some birds are utterly ridiculous to try and fit at T2 alone, for example - CNR.
"CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Jack Miton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi Unmentionables
2919
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Posted - 2014.01.15 21:43:00 -
[12] - Quote
Because people grind missions and get them very easily from LP stores. Buying a CN on the market is pretty fail though. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
332
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Posted - 2014.01.15 23:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Because some birds are utterly ridiculous to try and fit at T2 alone, for example - CNR. To me that sounds like a good reason to not fly a CNR. But then again I am not much of a mission runner and I am not a fan of missiles for PVE.
I just feel that if you need more tank than what T2 provides for a normal level 4 mission you are doing something wrong with regards to your DPS or your trigger/aggro management. Especially in the era of MJDs and bastion mode. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
492
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Posted - 2014.01.16 01:21:00 -
[14] - Quote
when playing in eft I'd probably pick a CN invlun over a DG just because. that said in game I'd go DG all the way. also that being said I probably wouldn't actually use either in game, as faction invluns are gank bait. and if I was fitting a super I'd probably use deadspace. You can trust me, I have a monocole |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1260
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Posted - 2014.01.16 02:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:I probably wouldn't actually use either in game, as faction invluns are gank bait.
But faction invulns are just... so goddamn good. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
19660
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Posted - 2014.01.16 04:46:00 -
[16] - Quote
Heh, what else are you gonna spend the ISK on anyway?
More ships? You can only fly one at a time.
That being said, I'd rather fit up Deadspace mods gained from Pirate NPC drop's than work my arse off grinding LP's for inferior Faction mods.
DMC |
Judas Lonestar
Stryker Industries Ocularis Inferno
44
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Posted - 2014.01.16 06:34:00 -
[17] - Quote
Some people might look at LP as "free" so dont think about the isk value of it, which would make the CN Invul appear to be cheaper than the DG Invul.
Same as "I mined the ore, so its free!' mindset you see in the indy boys. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
602
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Posted - 2014.01.16 08:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:Because some birds are utterly ridiculous to try and fit at T2 alone, for example - CNR. To me that sounds like a good reason to not fly a CNR. But then again I am not much of a mission runner and I am not a fan of missiles for PVE. I just feel that if you need more tank than what T2 provides for a normal level 4 mission you are doing something wrong with regards to your DPS or your trigger/aggro management. Especially in the era of MJDs and bastion mode. I guess the sentry domi has just made me lazy and incompetent in all other styles of PVE.
I just picked that one because it sprung to mind. I've perfect fitting skills (save launcher rigging 4/5) and it's simply not possible to do a pure T2 traditional fit without fitting help. Granted it got worse when they gave it an extra mid AND launcher and no more CPU to work with....but I digress, the point was more it may be for fitting reasons as opposed to anything else, especially where DDAs are involved as there are no faction versions (usually the first things to go faction are damage mods).
Fleet phoon is another one which is tight as hell, faction the ass off it, or use fitting mods when going for max damage. |
Aluka 7th
121
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Posted - 2014.01.16 08:27:00 -
[19] - Quote
Maybe trying to do level 4 in tier 2 Tech 1 ship like Raven is problem and not CPU/POWER of ship itself. I don't expect arbitrator to supply enough CPU/POWER for T2 fit but I do expect it from Curse or Pilgrim. It is actually by design that Tech 1 ships have hard time fitting T2 modules. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
602
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Posted - 2014.01.16 11:50:00 -
[20] - Quote
You know what a CNR is, right? |
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Aluka 7th
121
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Posted - 2014.01.16 11:56:00 -
[21] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:You know what a CNR is, right?
I was thinking they talk about Raven with my half asleep brain... Navy Raven. |
Kithran
87
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Posted - 2014.01.16 19:13:00 -
[22] - Quote
Those of you who are pointing out you can _now_ get deadspace invulns are missing the main reason there are still a lot of cal navy invulns found on mission boats - there was a long period when the only options better than t2 were with the dg/cal navy or officer.
If I remember correctly the prices for both were higher back then but I think the cal navy worked out cheaper in isk terms, especially as so many people had cal navy lp the normal conversion rate wasn't that good so it made sense to use your lp to get cal navy invulns for your own use.
Those people who still have them can easily have simply not bothered upgrading since - I know I still have ships fitted with them from that time. |
Aluka 7th
121
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Posted - 2014.01.16 19:47:00 -
[23] - Quote
Kithran wrote:Those of you who are pointing out you can _now_ get deadspace invulns are missing the main reason there are still a lot of cal navy invulns found on mission boats - there was a long period when the only options better than t2 were with the dg/cal navy or officer.
If I remember correctly the prices for both were higher back then but I think the cal navy worked out cheaper in isk terms, especially as so many people had cal navy lp the normal conversion rate wasn't that good so it made sense to use your lp to get cal navy invulns for your own use.
Those people who still have them can easily have simply not bothered upgrading since - I know I still have ships fitted with them from that time.
Ah! Tnx for that angle! |
Estella Osoka
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
275
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Posted - 2014.01.16 21:43:00 -
[24] - Quote
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Personally I don't understand why people use faction/deadspace tanking mods on level 4 PVE fits all. tbh i understand it but i dont use it. U can bring a 3 tank domi with deadspace stuff up to the lvl of a 5 slot tanked domi. Faction Missile Launchers are more efficient for mission running and faction damage amps give more damage which would make missions faster. Downside is u run a medium to high risk of suicide ganks singling you out.
Faction missile launchers aren't more efficient. You can't use T2 missiles with it, so less damage. More damage = faster completion time. |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
713
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Posted - 2014.01.20 11:12:00 -
[25] - Quote
Probably the same reason people use CN antimatter charges rather than the identical and cheaper FN antimatter charges.
And yes, faction launchers are more efficient. They are the only faction weapon system that will outdamage the T2 equivalent when using the same ammo. Sure, using fury missiles will get the T2 paper DPS higher, but the application is worse. The application on precision missiles is higher, but the base dps is lower. Switching between faction, precision, and fury is inefficient due to the 10 second reloads, so its most efficient to stick with faction launchers and faction ammo.
The reason, as far as I can figure, is CCP fails at math. going from meta 0--4, faction for turrets is: +0%, +5%, +10%, +15%, +20%, +25% base damage T2 base damage is basically meta 4 * 1.1 if you have spec to V, ie, +32% compared to the +25% of faction guns
But for missiles, going from meta 0--4, faction for RF/Domination, faction forCN/DG launchers is: -0%, -5%, -10%, -15%, -20%, -25%, -30% base cycle time T2 base cycle time is basically meta 4 * 0.9 if you have spec to V, ie, -28% compared to the -30% of DG/CN launchers 0.72/0.7 = 1.02857..... Ie 2.86% more DPS with faction launchers, assuming the same ammo.
#1 the "30%" bonus is too much, no faction gun gets more than that CN/DG launchers should be nerfed in raw DPS, but become easier to fit
#2 cycle time reductions are too much. A Meta 4 gun does 20% more dps, while a meta 4 launcher does 25% more. A faction gun does 25% more, while a low grade faction launcher does 33.3% more. Missile meta progression should go at 4% cycle time/level instead of 5% (much like they did with resist bonuses), so that a meta 4 missile launcher gives the same DPS improvement over meta 0, as with turrets. |
Gimme more Cynos
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
124
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Posted - 2014.01.20 12:58:00 -
[26] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:Probably the same reason people use CN antimatter charges rather than the identical and cheaper FN antimatter charges.
And yes, faction launchers are more efficient. They are the only faction weapon system that will outdamage the T2 equivalent when using the same ammo. Sure, using fury missiles will get the T2 paper DPS higher, but the application is worse. The application on precision missiles is higher, but the base dps is lower. Switching between faction, precision, and fury is inefficient due to the 10 second reloads, so its most efficient to stick with faction launchers and faction ammo.
The reason, as far as I can figure, is CCP fails at math. going from meta 0--4, faction for turrets is: +0%, +5%, +10%, +15%, +20%, +25% base damage T2 base damage is basically meta 4 * 1.1 if you have spec to V, ie, +32% compared to the +25% of faction guns
But for missiles, going from meta 0--4, faction for RF/Domination, faction forCN/DG launchers is: -0%, -5%, -10%, -15%, -20%, -25%, -30% base cycle time T2 base cycle time is basically meta 4 * 0.9 if you have spec to V, ie, -28% compared to the -30% of DG/CN launchers 0.72/0.7 = 1.02857..... Ie 2.86% more DPS with faction launchers, assuming the same ammo.
#1 the "30%" bonus is too much, no faction gun gets more than that CN/DG launchers should be nerfed in raw DPS, but become easier to fit
#2 cycle time reductions are too much. A Meta 4 gun does 20% more dps, while a meta 4 launcher does 25% more. A faction gun does 25% more, while a low grade faction launcher does 33.3% more. Missile meta progression should go at 4% cycle time/level instead of 5% (much like they did with resist bonuses), so that a meta 4 missile launcher gives the same DPS improvement over meta 0, as with turrets.
To get this straight:
You say: Faction launchers are more efficient, because they outperfom T2 launchers while using T1 or Faction ammo, while loosing to T2 when using T2 Ammo.
Hum, I guess I'm about to lol.
T2 Fury can hit proper targets just fine (especially in PvE), and precisions will apply damage significantly better.
Imho, it is nicely balanced between T2 and Faction launchers, just that no sane brain with the choice between both of them would pay the crapton of money for a really marginal increase in DPS while using T1 or Faction. Of course, not everyone in EvE is a sane brain :D |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
335
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Posted - 2014.01.20 14:25:00 -
[27] - Quote
Faction weapons also make you a gank magnet. Only an idiot would fit them. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
2611
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Posted - 2014.01.20 15:33:00 -
[28] - Quote
At the time I bought my Caldari invul it was in fact the cheaper of the two. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Marc Callan
Interstellar Steel Templis CALSF
403
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Posted - 2014.01.20 17:24:00 -
[29] - Quote
Yeah, that's the thing: CN units can kinda-sorta be produced in hisec, so their supply is fairly steady, if on the low side, while DG units are almost entirely supplied by faction drops (and maybe Guristas faction LP stores in null), and can vary wildly depending on ratting activity. (Look at the respective prices of two Scorpion-derived hulls, the Scorpion Navy Issue and the Rattlesnake, for an example.) "Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred..." - Niccolo Machiavelli-á |
Qalix
Long Jump.
37
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Posted - 2014.01.20 17:36:00 -
[30] - Quote
I think a couple of people in this thread didn't get that the OP is questioning the PRICE of CN vs DG invul rather than simply that it be chosen for some other reason. DG is identical and cheaper, so why use CN? There can only be one answer: failure to compare prices and stats. People are used to other games where items don't have such convoluted stats and are grouped by level/power. They're saying to themselves: The fitting guide I found online says CN? Okay, I fit CN, it must be the best of its "level".
I have never, ever had trouble with an L4 or even epic arc missions using a T2 fit and proper range management. Epic arcs can get sketchy without dual boxing, but it is inevitably as a result of poor decision making and attention lapses, which would get you killed with faciton/deadspace mods just as easily. Using T2 cruises and Precision missiles, rigors, and a TP, I wipe out even advanced faction frigates (e.g. arch type angel tacklers) in one or two salvos with zero issues, even point blank. Dual boxing two of these types of ships, I rarely even launch drones unless I'm in an ammo saving mood.
The only time I would use faction/deadspace mods is for one key component (usually the shield booster or prop mod) on the fit. However, ASBs have made that unnecessary and faction prop mods are only something I consider on a T3 fit. |
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