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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
116
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Posted - 2014.01.16 13:05:00 -
[31] - Quote
in simple RP terms why would any pilot install a module that required a passcode every 5 minutes to keep it running? Then answer why they would do that on a stealth cloak that will keep them alive in hostile territory?
Assume you are being hunted and fly accordingly I guess, on the rare occasion you may well be wrong... |
Lapata Kapata
Perkone Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 13:13:00 -
[32] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:in simple RP terms why would any pilot install a module that required a passcode every 5 minutes to keep it running? Then answer why they would do that on a stealth cloak that will keep them alive in hostile territory?
Assume you are being hunted and fly accordingly I guess, on the rare occasion you may well be wrong... I have been hunting on enemy side, you wait you aggression timer and log off begging god "they will scan my dude, but not me". It works, fleet miss 2-3 ships, but mostly come back home after a time. Alive.
Passing thru by covert/t3 will not be affected, if you can not pass and do not have aggression - log off, welcome. Aggression - wait in cloak 15 minutes and log off as normal ship until you can pass. Be AFK IRL. |
Lapata Kapata
Perkone Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 13:19:00 -
[33] - Quote
erg cz wrote:[quote=Lapata Kapata]
"Us" was used because he ment me and him. There are more of us, who would like to see the proof.
The whole idea looks to me very stupid, since if that "Are you AFK?" question will popup at exact the same second I will decide to decloack and target, I will be very angry. Sit still in cloak and wait for the right moment to attack is the vey basic of cloacking warfare. If the popup window will disturb my timing , that is a reason for unsubscribe and go find better game.
My capacitor recharder is "on" whole time, lets balance it as well ( best - with some faction isotopes), should we? You try to mix passive and active modules.
Cloak is an advanced module, similar to Siege or Triage, as give huge benefits to user, but still no consumption of petrol or other "balancing" mechanics.
Pove me, what kind of PVP/PVE activity can be done 100% AFK in days/weeks, with bot/script/hand log on and activation within 1 second after login? Without any counter mechanism?
Oh, wait, may be you would like have cloak with possibility for probing? Thats solution, you are invisible, but you can be probed.... and not only probed - you can be probed faster that in normal condition, t.ex. 2 times faster with perfect skills. |
Mr Blah Blahson
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 13:19:00 -
[34] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Lapata Kapata wrote:Mag's wrote:So again, please answer why this idea is needed.
Please show evidence that being AFK and cloaked is not balanced.
Also, show us evidence that a client AFK, generates more server load. Mate, are you a king? You say about yourself in plural form. Also, prove me why i need evidence something to you? AFK cloaking is not balanced by activity timer(forced logoff) or use of petrol(costs, cargo volumes, availability in market, may be racial cloak isotopes?) or thermal skills(overheating generated). It is "on" whole time why i need to think that it is not unbalanced thing? Give me a prove. You make claims and give the idea, the onus is then upon you to provide proof and facts to back them up. I'm not the only one that requires this. So what if it's on all the time? Cloaks have counters and they also have inherent restrictions. You have yet to show why being AFK and cloaked, isn't balanced. The problem to me is a lack of ability to discern what the cloaker is/isn't doing.
I do think for the most part the mechanic is balanced. However in it's current state you cannot tell if the person has been AFK for 2 hours 55 AU from you, or has been following you around to each site trying to setup the perfect warp-in for his mates. For the sake of game balance, there should not be such a discrepancy in the information that is available to two separate entities in the same system. Of course, being cloaked, there should be some discrepancy leaning towards the side of the cloaker.
What I propose is something that indicates the rough position of a cloaked pilot in space. Perhaps cloaked ships should show up as a "signature" on your d-scan. It doesn't show the type of ship, just simply that there is a cloaked ship within d-scan range. You cannot pinpoint it and warp to it using probes.
This means if I suspect an AFK cloaker, I can warp 40 AU away and spam d-scan for however long I want. If I see no "cloak signature", I can assume the pilot is AFK cloaking. If he decides to warp into the cosmic signature I'd doing to setup a warp-in, I can now see his signature on d-scan again.
To me that is more balanced. However I don't think the game would be broken if they didn't include this. It's alright in it's current state, but this would be a bit more balanced.
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Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
602
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 13:19:00 -
[35] - Quote
I'm sticking with my line of
"When a WH dweller tells me AFK cloaking is broken, maybe then I'll listen". |
Lapata Kapata
Perkone Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 13:27:00 -
[36] - Quote
Mr Blah Blahson wrote:[ I do think for the most part the mechanic is balanced. However in it's current state you cannot tell if the person has been AFK for 2 hours 55 AU from you, or has been following you around to each site trying to setup the perfect warp-in for his mates. For the sake of game balance, there should not be such a discrepancy in the information that is available to two separate entities in the same system. Of course, being cloaked, there should be some discrepancy leaning towards the side of the cloaker.
What I propose is something that indicates the rough position of a cloaked pilot in space. Perhaps cloaked ships should show up as a "signature" on your d-scan. It doesn't show the type of ship, just simply that there is a cloaked ship within d-scan range. You cannot pinpoint it and warp to it using probes.
This means if I suspect an AFK cloaker, I can warp 40 AU away and spam d-scan for however long I want. If I see no "cloak signature", I can assume the pilot is AFK cloaking. If he decides to warp into the cosmic signature I'd doing to setup a warp-in, I can now see his signature on d-scan again.
To me that is more balanced. However I don't think the game would be broken if they didn't include this. It's alright in it's current state, but this would be a bit more balanced. Still no counter possibility to AFK cloak.
Still i can say - only AFK cloaking can be 100% VALUABLE AFK activity - that means "AFK gives benefits/profit" and do not claim anything back - nonsence. Game mechanics is broken here. |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
16476
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 13:33:00 -
[37] - Quote
Mr Blah Blahson wrote: The problem to me is a lack of ability to discern what the cloaker is/isn't doing.
I do think for the most part the mechanic is balanced. However in it's current state you cannot tell if the person has been AFK for 2 hours 55 AU from you, or has been following you around to each site trying to setup the perfect warp-in for his mates. For the sake of game balance, there should not be such a discrepancy in the information that is available to two separate entities in the same system. Of course, being cloaked, there should be some discrepancy leaning towards the side of the cloaker.
What I propose is something that indicates the rough position of a cloaked pilot in space. Perhaps cloaked ships should show up as a "signature" on your d-scan. It doesn't show the type of ship, just simply that there is a cloaked ship within d-scan range. You cannot pinpoint it and warp to it using probes.
This means if I suspect an AFK cloaker, I can warp 40 AU away and spam d-scan for however long I want. If I see no "cloak signature", I can assume the pilot is AFK cloaking. If he decides to warp into the cosmic signature I'd doing to setup a warp-in, I can now see his signature on d-scan again.
To me that is more balanced. However I don't think the game would be broken if they didn't include this. It's alright in it's current state, but this would be a bit more balanced.
I see to some extent what you are saying, but why should you have that information? They are cloaked with a supposedly Covert Ops module. The fact that you know they are there, kinda breaks that covertness. Wouldn't you say?
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
169
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 13:33:00 -
[38] - Quote
"Rivr Luzade" wrote:No? What about a ready counter fleet? What about MJDing around in your plex? Not using carriers? Use less expensive ships, Dominix instead of Rattle, Mega instead of Vindi, etc.
Also, there is no counter to too huge coalitions in this game. How do you counter this? And why should this only be sov-based? What about the people in NPC-00, who get cloaky camped, too? Or low sec?
Besides: My system? Don't you have enough station systems to switch around freely? Shouldn't cost you much fuel/money to spread ships around several systems. You have so much sov, use it, because that is your best afk cloak counter. |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
16476
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 13:35:00 -
[39] - Quote
Posting these again, in the hope the OP will back up their claims with some facts.
Please show evidence that being AFK and cloaked is not balanced.
Please show us evidence that a client AFK, generates more server load.
Also, please answer why this idea is needed.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Lapata Kapata
Perkone Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 14:33:00 -
[40] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Posting these again, in the hope the OP will back up their claims with some facts.
Please show evidence that bein/................. If you are deweloper or any other kind of people affecting game mechanics - your questions may seems reasonable, otherwise - your reaction sound like trolling, repeating same questions and spending your time on it.
Read before ask, all information already given. Try to use your mind, you are not in school, it's a conference.
But i give you prove on your level: I see and feel that cloak is broken, and have idea how to fix it. Nothing in game may generate profit/benefit in AFK mode. Cloak does it. - it is broken. Argue on it, or leave this thread. |
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Mag's
the united SCUM.
16492
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 14:37:00 -
[41] - Quote
Lapata Kapata wrote:Mag's wrote:Posting these again, in the hope the OP will back up their claims with some facts.
Please show evidence that being AFK and cloaked is not balanced.
Please show us evidence that a client AFK, generates more server load.
Also, please answer why this idea is needed. If you are deweloper or any other kind of people affecting game mechanics - your questions may seems reasonable, otherwise - your reaction sound like trolling, repeating same questions and spending your time on it. Read before ask, all information already given. Try to use your mind, you are not in school, it's a conference. I have read and you have not given any factual answers to the questions I have asked.
So stop using avoiding tactics, such as the trolling and school references and answer the questions.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
587
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 14:54:00 -
[42] - Quote
Also every cycle of a mining barge lazor should involve the hacking minigame before it will start the next cycle. If you fail it twice your barge blows up. here is a list of all the fiat currencies that didn't end up at zero value.....and here is a list of the places where a currency pegged to a real commodity has successfully co-existed with compound interest....-á Here is a physics professor explaining why sustainable growth isn't a thing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1975
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 15:59:00 -
[43] - Quote
Lapata Kapata wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote: Btw there are some players that legitimately use afk cloaking defensively. It's all not just harassers.
Examples?
Mainly defensive cloaking. Be it in 0.0, LS, or WH's
I have had occasions where i was camped in a system, in a non-covert ship with a standard cloak. Due to circumstances I could not leave, nor could I safely log out (combat probes all around). My only recourse was an extended cloak and wait for them to get bored and move on.
Once in a WH this ended up being close to 3 hours. Having to play your captcha game would have been utter BS.
You wanna live and farm in 0.0, HTFU.
AFK cloaking whine thread #82737645632672361
/thread |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
16494
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:08:00 -
[44] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Lapata Kapata wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote: Btw there are some players that legitimately use afk cloaking defensively. It's all not just harassers.
Examples? Mainly defensive cloaking. Be it in 0.0, LS, or WH's I have had occasions where i was camped in a system, in a non-covert ship with a standard cloak. Due to circumstances I could not leave, nor could I safely log out (combat probes all around). My only recourse was an extended cloak and wait for them to get bored and move on. Once in a WH this ended up being close to 3 hours. Having to play your captcha game would have been utter BS. You wanna live and farm in 0.0, HTFU. AFK cloaking whine thread #82737645632672361 /thread OP, this is how you present facts to back up claims. He's given examples as asked for.
Also there is another example I can give.
We have scouts watching systems and gates. We tend not to touch the PC that has the scout for long periods of time, but watch the screen for the relevant new information. Your idea would be a nightmare for us and take our minds off the task at hand. And for what? I'm still waiting to here why this is needed.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1975
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:25:00 -
[45] - Quote
Mr Blah Blahson wrote: I do think for the most part the mechanic is balanced. However in it's current state you cannot tell if the person has been AFK for 2 hours 55 AU from you, or has been following you around to each site trying to setup the perfect warp-in for his mates. For the sake of game balance, there should not be such a discrepancy in the information that is available to two separate entities in the same system. Of course, being cloaked, there should be some discrepancy leaning towards the side of the cloaker.
It sounds like that is the exact point of COVERT. So I fail to see the problem. The whole point of being cloaked is so you can't see what they are doing.
And there are balance things.
1. With the exception of Stealth Bombers, All ships have a lock penalty after decloaking. If you are aligned in most cases you should be gone before you get locked. Stealth bombers are squishy and should die fast enough again to get out in most cases.
2. While cloaked a ship cannot use any of their modules. They cant repair, target, launch probes etc.
I'm sure others can come up with even more. |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
3895
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:40:00 -
[46] - Quote
Why is the PvE metagame being threatened in this manner?
If I should set up a scarecrow, then obviously I am both active, and in the same system or it's neighbor.
Maybe you hate multiboxers?
Perhaps you have not considered the alleged AFK cloaking pilot may well be the alt of your alliance mate, just trying to drive you away?
Consider this: So-called "AFK Cloaking" is also a tool used BY the PvE players who meta game.
They set up a fake threat, under a different account and unfamiliar name, help it sneak into the system, and set it up to AFK cloak.
Using this fake threat like a scarecrow, they keep other alliance mates out of their systems... heck, they can even keep their own corp out, if they are nasty enough.
Using this threat to hold their "competition" away, they can rat and mine to their heart's content.
They can even stage mock battles showing how they narrowly escape the dangerous camper, to boost it's realism.
Nope, AFK cloaking can be done BY PvE too.
Welcome to the sandbox. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Lapata Kapata
Perkone Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:47:00 -
[47] - Quote
One of you don't want to die and probably hunt somebody. But for those who hunting you, your cloaking is annoing and close to be exploit.
As per below: something given benefit without activity(you are alive since you AFK and living IRL, since ingame people try to catch you) - can be count exploit or broken game mechanics.
Those who want to scout in 10th window - it is your problem, leave it or die trying. Same with "solo bonuses" on spot in cloak. You use it - must take your time/attention, otherwise invite real man on bonus ship. Same for scout ships - less window, more real players.
Any other point of view?
Who can argue against Cloak gives benefit without activity(AFK cloak) - broken game mechanics |
Lapata Kapata
Perkone Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:51:00 -
[48] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Why is the PvE metagame being threatened in this manner? . Still AFK Cloaking gives BENEFIT without activity. Broken mechanics.
1 people have benefit against other by doing nothing. Hello Wall Street |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
3896
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:57:00 -
[49] - Quote
Lapata Kapata wrote: Who can argue against Cloak gives benefit without activity(AFK cloak) - broken game mechanics
Please demonstrate the benefit.
Do not bother claiming the perception of benefit, but the real ISK value gained to the specific character directly, while cloaked.
If all you can point at is a disruption of other's behavior, you are implying that benefit can be obtained despite obvious degrees of separation.
What next? A butterfly in Jita flaps it's wings, and a fleet in 5ZXX gets wiped out?
Connections on this level do not equate as proof, despite how they may be inconvenient to you. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
16504
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:58:00 -
[50] - Quote
Lapata Kapata wrote:One of you don't want to die and probably hunt somebody. But for those who hunting you, your cloaking is annoing and close to be exploit.
As per below: something given benefit without activity(you are alive since you AFK and living IRL, since ingame people try to catch you) - can be count exploit or broken game mechanics.
Those who want to scout in 10th window - it is your problem, leave it or die trying. Same with "solo bonuses" on spot in cloak. You use it - must take your time/attention, otherwise invite real man on bonus ship. Same for scout ships - less window, more real players.
Any other point of view?
Who can argue against Cloak gives benefit without activity(AFK cloak) - broken game mechanics Only CCP decides what is and is not an exploit. Just because something annoys you, doesn't mean it needs a nerf.
What benefit is it giving and how do they gain it?
So you are now saying you don't care that the module is being used as designed, as long as you get your safe ratting sorted?
So far, you failed to provide any arguments to show it's broken or in need of a nerf.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
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Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1271
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 17:06:00 -
[51] - Quote
lol, how dumb do you have to be to come up with stupid crap like this? "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Origin. Black Legion.
404
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 18:43:00 -
[52] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Why?
Oh and what is a cloack?
isn't a cloack the hole in reptiles and birds that acts as an anus/urethra/genitals
oh cloaca
close enough No sig. |
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks The Volition Cult
659
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 19:29:00 -
[53] - Quote
Lapata Kapata wrote:Who can argue against Cloak gives benefit without activity(AFK cloak) - broken game mechanics You make me laugh. Ok, I'll bite.
1) All people doing PI
2) All people manufacturing
3) All people doing moon reactions
Now, you might argue that these people, taking PI as an example, did something to set up the PI and did something after getting the benefit but they sure as hell didn't do anything whilst the process of benefit took place.
The same can be said of AFK cloakers. They put effort into getting into position then go away and leave the process to run (the process being pissing you off or whatever their aim is) and then when they've finished they put effort into going home.
The process is the same with AFK cloaking as it is with other things in the game.
You're just pissed off because you either can't or refuse to think around the problem so you come to the forums to try to force your will on the game and the rest of the community. |
Desivo Delta Visseroff
Infinite Conquest Li3 Federation
107
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 19:46:00 -
[54] - Quote
I never realized that NPC corps began holding sov and/or operating in areas where cloaking was a legitimate concern/practice???
Oh... I see... its a forum alt.
Want people to respect and take your beliefs and convitions seriously? Use your main so we can all see who you really are.
If not.....
On a constructive note, maybe OP just needs to take some time and learn how to properly use D-Scan, adjust your overview, and actually try scouting before you begin your AFK ratting/missioning. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1979
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 19:46:00 -
[55] - Quote
So here's a general question for all of the people who don't like AFK cloaking.
We have had a multitude of threads on the subject. And a similar multitude of potential fixes. Minigames, Cloak fuel, POS modules, special probes, to list just a few.
There is one VERY SUPER SIMPLE FIX. That would be an AFK icon in local. I'd bet it would be easy to implement by CCP. We already have icons that go there. Red ones, blue ones, flashy yellow ones, you get the idea. So I imagine an afk one for anyone who hasn't touched the computer in a certain time period wouldn't be to hard right?
So after all these years. All these threads. We have not EVER heard CCP even hint at implementing such a simple fix. Why do you think that is? I would venture to guess because CCP considers it as a non-issue.
So if CCP is unlikely to ever implement such a simple fix described above, why do you ever think they are gonna go for any of these crazy off the wall convoluted solutions? |
Tran Tuyen
Amadio Family Enterprises
0
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 19:54:00 -
[56] - Quote
Just so I'm clear on the OP's position:
Ratting in perfect safety and comfort thanks to free, instant, 100% accurate, no-effort intelligence about who is in your system at any given moment: perfectly fine, working as intended.
AFK cloaking in order to introduce uncertainty into that intelligence: an affront to the True Spirit of EVE, requiring literally the most irritating game mechanic ever imagined to combat.
Am I missing anything here?
|
Desivo Delta Visseroff
Infinite Conquest Li3 Federation
107
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 19:56:00 -
[57] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:
There is one VERY SUPER SIMPLE FIX. That would be an AFK icon in local. I'd bet it would be easy to implement by CCP. We already have icons that go there. Red ones, blue ones, flashy yellow ones, you get the idea. So I imagine an afk one for anyone who hasn't touched the computer in a certain time period wouldn't be to hard right?
So after all these years. All these threads. We have not EVER heard CCP even hint at implementing such a simple fix. Why do you think that is? I would venture to guess because CCP considers it as a non-issue.
That may not bad idea and would be easy to implement, BUT that would destroy all the cloaking used for surveillance/counter-surveillance. Not to mention the fact that it could be avoided by someone spinning their view or setting their ship to orbit something at range.
It would just create another mechanic to do the work for the scared and lazy. |
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks The Volition Cult
659
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 20:00:00 -
[58] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:So here's a general question for all of the people who don't like AFK cloaking.
We have had a multitude of threads on the subject. And a similar multitude of potential fixes. Minigames, Cloak fuel, POS modules, special probes, to list just a few.
There is one VERY SUPER SIMPLE FIX. That would be an AFK icon in local. I'd bet it would be easy to implement by CCP. We already have icons that go there. Red ones, blue ones, flashy yellow ones, you get the idea. So I imagine an afk one for anyone who hasn't touched the computer in a certain time period wouldn't be to hard right?
So after all these years. All these threads. We have not EVER heard CCP even hint at implementing such a simple fix. Why do you think that is? I would venture to guess because CCP considers it as a non-issue.
So if CCP is unlikely to ever implement such a simple fix described above, why do you ever think they are gonna go for any of these crazy off the wall convoluted solutions?
If CCP did implement that fix it would be abused to hell. So with that fix in place you can be sure that someone that isn't flagged afk isn't afk... right? I'm afraid you're wrong.
When this came up about many many times ago I worked out 3 ways of making my computer periodically think I was moving my mouse. So I would be most definitely not afk according to the game even though I've gone down the pub to get drunk.
Also, it's a non-issue |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
1771
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 21:07:00 -
[59] - Quote
CAPTCHA in EVE? OP needs to biomass. |
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CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
3255
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 21:50:00 -
[60] - Quote
Locking this for being a redundant topic. EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative GÇ+ EVE Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept
@CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents |
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