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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard Templis CALSF
60
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Posted - 2014.02.08 05:55:00 -
[511] - Quote
God's Apples wrote:http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=21716876
Do you even rlml bro?
If he's stable, that's actually a decent fit, assuming he has the money to spend on tinkering with concept HACs like that. He'd have the range and speed to deny engagements and leave them if they're unfavorable. Don't trash concept fits unless the fit itself falls short of its intent. Don't blame pilot error, and certainly don't do KM shaming on a forum to discredit someone's legitimate and very reasonable concerns; it shows you lack constructive ideas yourself... |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
516
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Posted - 2014.02.08 09:52:00 -
[512] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:God's Apples wrote:http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=21716876
Do you even rlml bro? If he's stable, that's actually a decent fit, assuming he has the money to spend on tinkering with concept HACs like that. He'd have the range and speed to deny engagements and leave them if they're unfavorable. Don't trash concept fits unless the fit itself falls short of its intent. Don't blame pilot error, and certainly don't do KM shaming on a forum to discredit someone's legitimate and very reasonable concerns; it shows you lack constructive ideas yourself...
It takes guts to risk a fit like this on TQ. I've only ever seen God's Apples on SISI flying competition cruisers. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2886
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 14:35:00 -
[513] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:It takes guts to risk a fit like this on TQ. I've only ever seen God's Apples on SISI flying competition cruisers. I die a lot, what can I sayGǪ?
One of the biggest challenges with RLMLs is that light missiles have a low base velocity, so while it seems like the Cerberus would have pretty good range - half of that is extended flight time which really doesn't help that much (you need HAC V to get the full +50% missile velocity bonus). I had two engagements against an Incursus where I was unable to kill it with RLMLs despite scrams, webs and exploiting the weakest resistance. 35 seconds is still untenable in PvP situations. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Jureth22
Vanguard Frontiers Black Legion.
157
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Posted - 2014.02.08 17:18:00 -
[514] - Quote
until the ammo is not changed to better,f rapid launchers |
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
361
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Posted - 2014.02.08 17:24:00 -
[515] - Quote
Too many pages to read everything, and I do not have much time to forums so this will be my two bits on the subject.
Starting with missiles in general:
The advantage other weapons have is switching does give a tactical advantage as the situation changes. Ability to switch range, and with projectiles, switch damage. Drone boats switch to more tactical drones as well.
10 second reload timer, it isn't bad. As a long time missile pilot, I have gotten fairly good at predicting how damage will land, and de-activating to switch targets before final volley lands and next one fires off. I didn't quite get the insane reload on RMLs though. Essentially, they make a larger hull have the combat effectiveness of in between sizes. More damage than their smaller class, but better hits than their own size class.
Is this not any different than the dual weapons? Do the dual heavy pulse lasers have a 40 second reload time because they can hit frigates and fast cruisers at 10km if fit effectively? I change projectile ammo as the target changes. For slower rate damage, eg capitals, I use my one type for shields, then switch when timely for armor to maximize my damage.....
Now, the fact that these bonuses are limited to certain missiles and only a few basic ships get the RML bonus. I sorta get it. Do not want heavies to overpower cruise missiles. Indeed, a navy raven with a full loadout of rapid heavy missile launchers would devastate a cruiser. But it really would be meh against larger ships. Wow, no different than using the smaller barrels on a battleship :s
Flight time bonuses. It has been seen here many times in my glance, what a useless bonus, I agree with. Other ship bonuses are effective in their entirety. Allowing application of multifrequency from further away, example. For missile ships, the flight time bonus is useless plain and simple unless you are out beyond the base max range. Pretty sad. All flight time should be relplaced with velocity.
As for the RMLs, what to do about them.... Well, I guess it comes down to what is broken. With the crazy reload, you are saying you want a battleship to be weaker than a drake. Plain and simple. Navy drake>Navy raven, something is a bit wrong. The missile advantage is still that it is more immune to ewar. Best idea that I like is a normal reload timer of 10 seconds, with a longer swap for damage type. Makes sense because you have to pull missiles out, then put back in. |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2886
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 18:30:00 -
[516] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:As for the RMLs, what to do about them.... Well, I guess it comes down to what is broken. With the crazy reload, you are saying you want a battleship to be weaker than a drake. Plain and simple. Navy drake>Navy raven, something is a bit wrong. The missile advantage is still that it is more immune to ewar. Best idea that I like is a normal reload timer of 10 seconds, with a longer swap for damage type. Makes sense because you have to pull missiles out, then put back in. DPS with RLMLs is misleading because the abnormally high rate of fire severely distorts and inflates it. The actual damage output is noticeably less than heavy or heavy assault missiles. As an example, take an RLML Tengu. With 6 T2 launchers and Faction ammo it's over 600 DPS, but once you factor in the 35-second reload it's only about 350 DPS. Thus, you'll be further ahead in both PvE and PvP with 5 heavy or 5 heavy assault missile launchers. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Vesan Terakol
Sad Face Enterprises
36
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Posted - 2014.02.08 21:50:00 -
[517] - Quote
What if you make the reload menu layered? You have the option to reload/change/change to full at the first layer then the ammo type at the second.
You could also integrate the radial menu for that. Should be good enough for missiles. Other weapon types.. not that much,as they have more than 8 types of charges (8 standard + 2 advanced). Oh wait... there's faction ammo then... |
Sycotic Deninard
Basgerin Pirate SCUM.
38
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Posted - 2014.02.08 22:20:00 -
[518] - Quote
Hey, I got an idea! FIX HEAVY MISSILES!!!!! A person that does'nt use his intelligence is no better than an animal that does'nt have any and thus are steaks on the table by choice and consent. |
Arthur Aihaken
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
2887
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 02:09:00 -
[519] - Quote
Vesan Terakol wrote:What if you make the reload menu layered? You have the option to reload/change/change to full at the first layer then the ammo type at the second. This still doesn't address the actual issue of DPS, which is the heart of the problem:
Tengu (5x RLML) GǪ 502.5 DPS -+ 271.1 DPS (actual) Tengu (5x HML) GǪ 426.3 DPS -+ 400.9 DPS (actual) Tengu (5x HAML) GǪ 593.1 DPS -+ 553.4 DPS (actual)
Caracal (5x RLML) GǪ 335 DPS -+ 195.8 DPS (actual) Caracal (5x HML) GǪ 284.2 DPS -+ 270.0 DPS (actual) Caracal (5x HAML) GǪ 395.4 DPS -+ 373.1 DPS (actual)
On paper, RLMLs are only marginally better than HMLs. In reality, HMLs are 45% better and HAMs are twice as effective. So what happens if we simply drop the reload/swap time on RLMLs to 10 seconds:
Tengu (5x RLML) GǪ 502.5 DPS -+ 404.0 DPS (actual), with a 42km range Carcal (5x RLML) GǪ 335 DPS -+ 278.4 DPS (actual)
It basically puts RLMLs on par with RHMLs in terms of raw damage, with 1/2 to 2/3s the effective range. Light missiles are also slower than heavy missiles, and both are still overshadowed by HAMLs. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
michaelthered
HIFI INDUSTRIAL The Kadeshi
14
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Posted - 2014.02.09 04:39:00 -
[520] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:CCP Rise wrote: I would prefer if we could find something like making the reload time only 10 seconds unless you have a weapon timer.
please stop adding arbitrary rules just because it somehow balances things. Soon we will have ships which move slower with aggression timers etc. Try to explain that to a noob. Eve ships don't cast magic fireballs, those are weapons out of a scifi universe. The less explainable and arbitrary the mechanic is the more immersion breaking and less new player friendly it is. Just because you can't implement ammotype swap don't fall back to hacks like that.
this times a f'ing million!! There's so much arbitrary rubbish in this game that I have to rub my temples sometimes and walk away from the screen. Every week I run into at least one more piece of arbitrary bs where a more simple rational solution could have been implimented. Instead some stupid WOW magic pixie dust logic was applied and it just feels completely flamboyantly gay.
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Jim Sharpe
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2014.02.09 23:53:00 -
[521] - Quote
Any thought to simply restoring the reload time to the original 10 seconds? The decreased magazine capacity seems to me to be enough of a nerf to balance the increased firing rate for the much fewer number of missiles in the launchers. |
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
66
|
Posted - 2014.02.10 17:58:00 -
[522] - Quote
All you can do is vote with your feet people.
If you refuse to pay CCP to work out their own problems for them then they will actually fix them.
Light Missiles were not broken. Magazine capacity and power grid for RLML were like 20% OP. Fine, lower capacity to 40 (dps nerf) and increase powergrid so that XLASB Cerbs are not running wild.
All CCP did was utterly nerf them while trying to invent a new game play style. Thanks CCP, so far that has cost me $60 waiting for you to get your act together which should have been done on SiSi with some lemmings willing to do your work for you.
The real dps is a pathetic joke as compared to before because of the repping while reloading/letting your opponent reload his repper while you reload. Doesn't do much good when people can rep through the reload to full....O wait his friends had time to arrive too.
35 seconds reload is garbage game play. 35 seconds reload is garbage game play. 35 seconds reload is garbage game play. 35 seconds reload is garbage game play. 35 seconds reload is garbage game play. 35 seconds reload is garbage game play. 35 seconds reload is garbage game play. 35 seconds reload is garbage game play. 35 seconds reload is garbage game play. 35 seconds reload is garbage game play.
If you wanted to invent something "new" in game play why don't you test it first on your dime instead of dumping it on your paying customers? |
Eisenhornx
Air The Initiative.
24
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Posted - 2014.02.10 21:08:00 -
[523] - Quote
Here is the problem I am seeing with peoples argument to switch damage types instantaneously. Ill start with a scenario:
Caracal vs Thorax: Caracal equipped with RLML Caracal see Thorax and knows it will have a EM hole in its shield tank, switches to EM instantly. Shield is gone from Thorax after say 10 missiles(I dont know the actual amount just bare with me.) Caracal pilot then knows that the Thorax will likely have an explosive hole in its armor, he switches to explosive ammo instantly.
so in this scenario the caracal has a very big advantage of being able to apply maximum damage before having to reload.
This is the ultimate result of having a quick change for ammo on a missile boat, so this option is not a viable fix.
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Ransu Asanari
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
85
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Posted - 2014.02.10 23:02:00 -
[524] - Quote
Eisenhornx wrote:Here is the problem I am seeing with peoples argument to switch damage types instantaneously. Ill start with a scenario:
Caracal vs Thorax: Caracal equipped with RLML Caracal see Thorax and knows it will have a EM hole in its shield tank, switches to EM instantly. Shield is gone from Thorax after say 10 missiles(I dont know the actual amount just bare with me.) Caracal pilot then knows that the Thorax will likely have an explosive hole in its armor, he switches to explosive ammo instantly.
so in this scenario the caracal has a very big advantage of being able to apply maximum damage before having to reload.
This is the ultimate result of having a quick change for ammo on a missile boat, so this option is not a viable fix.
The majority of us are not discussing instant ammo swap.
We are talking about a way to separate the ammo swapping outside of the 35 second (or whatever ********) reload time that the Rapid Launchers will have, as being able to swap ammo type for damage type and other variants for range, explosion radius and velocity to adapt to their target (Rage/Fury/Precision/Javelin/FOF) is one of the main features/advantages of missiles. Most of the discussion was around having the ammo swap time be variable based on how many rounds are left in the launchers, or reload them in cycles. There's still going to be a delay in switching ammo, so the pilot will have to decide whether switching the ammo type will be worth the delay to exploit a POTENTIAL damage hole, since he won't actually know how the other ship's resists are configured.
As for (near) instant reloads, are you against lasers currently having a 1 second reload for crystals allowing them to swap their damage from strong EM to Thermal to exploit holes once shields are down, and being able to instantly adapt to changes in optimal range?
They don't have a reload cycle either, but they take cap so it's balanced, and can only do EM/Thermal damage. Missiles are (were) similarly balanced until the Rapid Light missiles broke this, and introduced problems that CCP now has to spend development time fixing. |
Enya Sparhawk
State Protectorate Caldari State
10
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Posted - 2014.02.10 23:30:00 -
[525] - Quote
I like the idea of having a 35 sec reload...
I'd increase the capacity a bit though, not sure about light missles but the heavys should be around 30 (instead of 25 For a tech2) F+¡orghr+í: Gr+í na f+¡rinne D+¬an g+íire...Tiocfaidh +ír l+í |
Ellendras Silver
My second corp
111
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Posted - 2014.02.10 23:31:00 -
[526] - Quote
Enya Sparhawk wrote:I like the idea of having a 35 sec reload...
I'd increase the capacity a bit though, not sure about light missles but the heavys should be around 30 (instead of 25 For a tech2)
you want that time to run downstairs and activate the coffee machine admit it!
===================================================================================================
ok i am not a missle girl yet but i am planning to train missles some more, but then i read this it is that i can see its from a DEV but if someone would have just told me that missle launchers had or should have 35 sec reload time (or more) i would have responded with:
please pee in this cup and then tested it for every drug on the planet ehhh solar system |
Enya Sparhawk
State Protectorate Caldari State
10
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Posted - 2014.02.10 23:34:00 -
[527] - Quote
No, the 35 sec. reload time is just for "rapid missle launchers"...
Normal launchers are still the same... F+¡orghr+í: Gr+í na f+¡rinne D+¬an g+íire...Tiocfaidh +ír l+í |
Varnir Penken
Prototype Concept Divide By Zero Alliance
0
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Posted - 2014.02.11 03:03:00 -
[528] - Quote
While the 40 second time is a long time and 35 could still be considered a long wait where seconds matter most in getting that kill, I will say the increase in ammo count will also def help (probably more so than that 5 seconds). I'd like to see 25-30 second reload times for the rapid lights. The 35 second could be good for heavies (since they will now hold more and they are also heavier missiles). 5 less seconds instead of -10 seconds supplemented by an increase in missile cap seems ok by me. I've taken on a 5 man frigate fleet with a Caracal fitted with rapid lights and won...noobs but against 5 and drones is still not a bad income despite having to reload 3 times (if not 4). I then later also won against a more experience pilot flying a Tristan. The fight was very close but my rapid lights still came out ahead. I was unhappy at first with the reload times but now I am seeing their value in anti-frig missile boats. I don't think a further reduction in reload time would be needed as to balance it out would either mean cutting DPS or losing that extra ammo cap that is being given. And I don't want to see DPS of missiles drop any further than they have dropped in the past expansions.
I read a post on here about basing reload time on how much has to be reloaded. I like that idea and it could be applied to every weapon out there...which would probably mean that reload time would be placed on the ammo its self instead of the module. |
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
68
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Posted - 2014.02.11 07:57:00 -
[529] - Quote
Varnir Penken wrote: ...I then later also won against a more experience pilot flying a Tristan. The fight was very close but my rapid lights still came out ahead...
Are you telling us that you are happy that you were able to kill a T1 Frigate in a dedicated anti-frig cruiser but it was a close fight?
If this weapon system was remotely appropriately balanced it should be a rofl stomp against any T1 frig or dessie.
Reality is that an Auto Cannon Thrasher would have torn you a new one as compared to a Tristan...and an AF would have raped you too by that measure ( a Tristan almost beat you).
I'm glad that you enjoyed the fight against the noob blob.
But it is not remotely a measure of this weapon system being balanced.
best regards |
Sgt Ocker
Last Bastion of Freedom
120
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Posted - 2014.02.11 11:31:00 -
[530] - Quote
Varnir Penken wrote:While the 40 second time is a long time and 35 could still be considered a long wait where seconds matter most in getting that kill, I will say the increase in ammo count will also def help (probably more so than that 5 seconds). I'd like to see 25-30 second reload times for the rapid lights. The 35 second could be good for heavies (since they will now hold more and they are also heavier missiles). 5 less seconds instead of -10 seconds supplemented by an increase in missile cap seems ok by me. I've taken on a 5 man frigate fleet with a Caracal fitted with rapid lights and won...noobs but against 5 and drones is still not a bad income despite having to reload 3 times (if not 4). I then later also won against a more experience pilot flying a Tristan. The fight was very close but my rapid lights still came out ahead. I was unhappy at first with the reload times but now I am seeing their value in anti-frig missile boats. I don't think a further reduction in reload time would be needed as to balance it out would either mean cutting DPS or losing that extra ammo cap that is being given. And I don't want to see DPS of missiles drop any further than they have dropped in the past expansions.
I read a post on here about basing reload time on how much has to be reloaded. I like that idea and it could be applied to every weapon out there...which would probably mean that reload time would be placed on the ammo its self instead of the module. Yeah, congrats on the kills but this simply shows just how badly balanced RLML currently is, especially for those with less than perfect skills... RLML Caracal (with average to good skills) as a dedicated frigate killer should be able to drop 3 to 4 frigates per reload, not 4 in 3 (if not 4) reloads.
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Window VentureWas VeryWeary
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
5
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Posted - 2014.02.12 01:22:00 -
[531] - Quote
Has anyone noticed the Rapid Heavy missiles don't have a range bonus after activating a Bastion module? Shouldn't the Bastion module effect all warheads attached to the same ship? Especially if the module is sized for that ship weight specifically? |
Rumbleton
Adam Inc.
0
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Posted - 2014.02.12 05:34:00 -
[532] - Quote
RELOAD BEHAVIOR SUGGESTION
Hit reload, missiles begin to reload over time, one at a time the missiles are added to the launcher.
Reload can be interrupted at any time by firing the weapon, F1.
Think loading a shotgun. I like this. |
Arthur Aihaken
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
2890
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Posted - 2014.02.13 01:27:00 -
[533] - Quote
Window VentureWas VeryWeary wrote:Has anyone noticed the Rapid Heavy missiles don't have a range bonus after activating a Bastion module? Shouldn't the Bastion module effect all warheads attached to the same ship? Especially if the module is sized for that ship weight specifically? I was not aware of thatGǪ Seems like an oversight, no? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard Templis CALSF
70
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Posted - 2014.02.13 18:30:00 -
[534] - Quote
Eisenhornx wrote:Here is the problem I am seeing with peoples argument to switch damage types instantaneously. Ill start with a scenario:
Caracal vs Thorax: Caracal equipped with RLML Caracal see Thorax and knows it will have a EM hole in its shield tank, switches to EM instantly. Shield is gone from Thorax after say 10 missiles(I dont know the actual amount just bare with me.) Caracal pilot then knows that the Thorax will likely have an explosive hole in its armor, he switches to explosive ammo instantly.
so in this scenario the caracal has a very big advantage of being able to apply maximum damage before having to reload.
This is the ultimate result of having a quick change for ammo on a missile boat, so this option is not a viable fix.
Which is why we have thermal ammunition, which is normally fairly effective against shields and armor for most things. I would be more inclined to use RLML if they fixed the ammo swap timer, so I agree with you on that point. |
Pew Terror
Green Associates
62
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Posted - 2014.02.13 18:36:00 -
[535] - Quote
Rumbleton wrote:RELOAD BEHAVIOR SUGGESTION
Hit reload, missiles begin to reload over time, one at a time the missiles are added to the launcher.
Reload can be interrupted at any time by firing the weapon, F1.
Think loading a shotgun. I like this.
Only problem is that you cant mix missiles so that idea would only work on empty launchers |
Arthur Aihaken
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
2890
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Posted - 2014.02.13 20:41:00 -
[536] - Quote
It's not just the ammunition swap time - it's the base reload time as well. DPS is extremely misleading with rapid launchers due to the high rate of fire, so the faster it shoots - the less the "real" DPS actually is. Raw damage bonuses will trump rate of fire bonuses, and most Caldari hulls with kinetic-specific bonuses lose this because kinetic is one of the toughest resistances by default and you'll want to pre-load a mix of ammunition against the weakest resistances.
You'll be further ahead with heavy assault launchers and a pair of webs or target painters, because the rate of fire is close to the same, range is comparable and you can swap-out ammunition to exploit any weak points in 10 seconds. Plus you're looking at an ammunition capacity upwards of 66 rounds with T2 launchers. You can also extend range with Javelin or swap to Rage for close combat. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Arthur Aihaken
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
2891
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Posted - 2014.02.14 02:08:00 -
[537] - Quote
CCP Rise, can you please confirm that Bastion is not extending the missile velocity bonus to rapid heavy launchers? If this is correct and an oversight, could we possibly get this addressed in a not-too-distant update? Thanks. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Arthur Aihaken
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
2895
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Posted - 2014.02.15 04:20:00 -
[538] - Quote
This isn't going to go away... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Arthur Aihaken
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
2916
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Posted - 2014.02.17 08:12:00 -
[539] - Quote
Q: Is there a missing animation for the rapid heavy missile launchers? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Arthur Aihaken
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
2916
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Posted - 2014.02.17 23:18:00 -
[540] - Quote
Requesting rapid light and rapid heavy launchers be added to the list for Defender missiles. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=322781&find=unread I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
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