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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2075
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 14:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
I think you all better have a close look at the new ESS stats. Basically, all your LP is about to crash in value.
CCP is now going to gift null sec with empire navy based LP for ANY rats killed in null. ANY rat they kill in null sec now gives them empire navy LP for whatever type of space they are in, as soon as an ESS is dropped.
So someone who rats in null Gurista space is going to collect 200 LP for every milllion ISK rat they kill. That means, someone doing 75 milion / hour semi-afk ratting in null sec will collect 15,000 LP, every hour.
So all high sec mission runners, you can kiss goodbye any value to your LP, for any item that can be found in the empire Navy LP store, plus all the cross-over items from the Navy LP stores to other NPC corp LP stores.
Before, the very poorly thought out ESS module and mechanics were a completely unfair nerf of null sec income starting with a 5% nerf across the board, with virtually impossible conditions to meet a gain of up to 105% of the ISK value of a rat.
But with 2nd round changes of how the ESS works plus this enormous LP gain, now the pendulum has swung far far in the favour of null sec, yet again, and high sec is facing a big big nerf in LP valuation. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1793
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 14:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
ok.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
498
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 15:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
I doubt it. In many cases they might have well stayed in empire and ran missions and generated far more LP. Also FW is probably the greater danger to navy LP. You can trust me, I have a monocole |
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
93
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 15:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'm also okay with the market crashing on those items. I really wish navy antimatter were quite a bit cheaper. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2075
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 15:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:I doubt it. In many cases they might have well stayed in empire and ran missions and generated far more LP. Also FW is probably the greater danger to navy LP.
I don't know about you, but people running 15,000 LP/ hour in high sec are pretty much running at a high rate. Given how much bounty ISK is generated in null, this is going to have a huge effect on LP valuation in high sec. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
stoicfaux
3889
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 15:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
Why can't people link? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4135933#post4135933
/rage
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
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stoicfaux
3889
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Posted - 2014.01.23 15:27:00 -
[7] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:I doubt it. In many cases they might have well stayed in empire and ran missions and generated far more LP. Also FW is probably the greater danger to navy LP. I don't know about you, but people running 15,000 LP/ hour in high sec are pretty much running at a high rate. Given how much bounty ISK is generated in null, this is going to have a huge effect on LP valuation in high sec. Yes and no. Navy LP items will be reduced, so implants, ships, ammo, etc., will drop in value.
The real question is how items that require tags will fare. On one hand, more LP means cheaper items. On the other hand more LP chasing the same amount of tags will increase tag prices which keeps item prices up.
On a side note, I wonder if we'll see a buff to, and a tag reduction reduction requirement of faction weapons which would act as an isk sink?
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2078
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 16:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:I doubt it. In many cases they might have well stayed in empire and ran missions and generated far more LP. Also FW is probably the greater danger to navy LP. I don't know about you, but people running 15,000 LP/ hour in high sec are pretty much running at a high rate. Given how much bounty ISK is generated in null, this is going to have a huge effect on LP valuation in high sec. Yes and no. Navy LP items will be reduced, so implants, ships, ammo, etc., will drop in value. The real question is how items that require tags will fare. On one hand, more LP means cheaper items. On the other hand more LP chasing the same amount of tags will increase tag prices which keeps item prices up. On a side note, I wonder if we'll see a buff to, and a tag reduction reduction requirement of faction weapons which would act as an isk sink?
Bottom line, these null sec people are going to have an enormous amount of LP to inject into the market. And they will most likely go after the big LP items, to get the exchange done fast.
That means +5 implants, and ships, as you said. And that means the high sec players get hammered by this gift to null sec.
Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1801
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 16:41:00 -
[9] - Quote
i could barely care less. change is always good if you are quick to adapt and lvl4s are too profitable anyway.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
unidenify
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
31
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Posted - 2014.01.23 16:52:00 -
[10] - Quote
well, it would kill L5 mission. If FW didn't kill it combo of FW plus ESS will
only it will do is make LP goods that don't require tags to lost value
so, true winner is tags farmers. there will be increase demands for those tags |
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ExcalibursTemplar
Citadel Enterprises
30
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Posted - 2014.01.23 17:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:I doubt it. In many cases they might have well stayed in empire and ran missions and generated far more LP. Also FW is probably the greater danger to navy LP. I don't know about you, but people running 15,000 LP/ hour in high sec are pretty much running at a high rate. Given how much bounty ISK is generated in null, this is going to have a huge effect on LP valuation in high sec. Yes and no. Navy LP items will be reduced, so implants, ships, ammo, etc., will drop in value. The real question is how items that require tags will fare. On one hand, more LP means cheaper items. On the other hand more LP chasing the same amount of tags will increase tag prices which keeps item prices up. On a side note, I wonder if we'll see a buff to, and a tag reduction reduction requirement of faction weapons which would act as an isk sink?
We can dream about that. |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1370
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 17:17:00 -
[12] - Quote
Even with the buff to the ESS, its still a tossup how often they'll be used, which will effect greatly how much LP comes into the system. If LP gets devalued too much, that's less incentive to use the ESS.
The new changes at least put the ESS from "no one will ever use it." To "maybe it will see some use." This is a good thing. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
thetwilitehour
GoonWaffe
221
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 18:02:00 -
[13] - Quote
Yes. We have altered the ESS. Pray we do not alter it further. |
Gimme more Cynos
Du nervst geh sterben
127
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 18:31:00 -
[14] - Quote
who cares about LP anyway.
Imho, it's a fine buff to 0.0, and I'm very much ok with it.
On the other hand, tag supply is short and will likely rise again with 0.0 flooding markets with empire LP. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2078
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 18:43:00 -
[15] - Quote
thetwilitehour wrote:Yes. We have altered the ESS. Pray we do not alter it further.
Yup, you had a private meeting with the dev's, and voila, a lovely buff to null sec income. Just like the nerf to sentry drones was precisely what you asked for. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
thetwilitehour
GoonWaffe
221
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 19:10:00 -
[16] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:thetwilitehour wrote:Yes. We have altered the ESS. Pray we do not alter it further. Yup, you had a private meeting with the dev's, and voila, a lovely buff to null sec income. Just like the nerf to sentry drones was precisely what you asked for.
Yes, that's what I said. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
502
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 19:52:00 -
[17] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:On a side note, I wonder if we'll see a buff to, and a tag reduction reduction requirement of faction weapons which would act as an isk sink?
personally I'd prefer more missions that dropped tags. Especially those tags that are just a pain in the ass to get, or drop in an unequal ratio. One example being the Federation Navy Fleet Colonel I and II tags. drop at at 14:41 ratio in Enemies abound, the LP store requires them at something like a 1:2 or 3:4 ratio (appears to vary between items). the I tags are about 4x npc value, where the II tags are selling right at NPC value, as honestly there is nothing better to do with the II tag than sell to the caldari navy.
plus I'd enjoy all the cheese that goes with the "I never leave my mission system but I just can't stand the thought of losing faction standing to that place I never go!!! How dare CCP add more antifaction missions!?" whine. You can trust me, I have a monocole |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1370
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 19:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote: On a side note, I wonder if we'll see a buff to, and a tag reduction reduction requirement of faction weapons which would act as an isk sink?
I doubt very much that we will see significant modifications to the LP store until CCP can observe the adoption rate of the ESS and see how it affects the LP market. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Tauranon
Weeesearch Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
655
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 21:04:00 -
[19] - Quote
The ESS needs a character assigned to loot it, to have any chance of preventing roaming gangs taking the loot.
anyone that installs its is going to attract roaming gangs. anyone that installs it and assigns a character to loot it, when there are less than 10 people in system ratting is wasting an alt account that could otherwise have been ratting. there are almost no systems on the cluster where 10 people rat at a time. Most null systems do not truly support it. It is likely to be banned in goon corps.
The pool of LP items available from Sisters has been considerably buffed over the last 2 patches. There is an even larger sink (pirate quality faction battleship), being added to the Sisters LP pool with this patch. Many other stores received mindlinks to increase the pool of LP items available.
The ESS does not hand out Sisters LP, therefore it will for the foreseeable future not be able to earn LP of the same market value that is earned by running missions in highsec for Sisters of Eve.
Most null players do not -want- the ESS.
It takes a lot more effort for me to cash LP generated on a heavily wardecced nullsec character, than it ever did as a mission runner.
---
The maths of the ESS.
I currently shoot 21m isk with a thinly tanked 6 gun, 6 damage mod domi in hubs. With the ESS in game but not installed, I will shoot 20m isk ticks, because of the blanket nerf With the ESS in game and installed, I will shoot 16m ticks with a domi. The ESS is 25m isk floating in space. The ESS will need 40m or thereabouts captured in it to make it function at its full bonus rate, so I will be risking at least 70m.
With the ESS fully bonused, I will receive 4000 LP in the tick.
With a 5 gun, 4 damage mod dominix in highsec, I will shoot a 19m tick in a Dread Pirate Scarlet. I will loot a 9m implant, and I will receive 7000 LP in 1 tick. In a blockade, I will shoot a 15.5m tick. I will receive 7000 LP in 1 tick. In 6 minutes I will recieve 7000 LP from a smash the supplier. I get a free reject per session, and I can usually accept another 2 rejects per session, so running bad missions is optional.
As Navy LP is not Sisters LP, and it is not FW store LP, it is the oldest and most worn out LP in the game.
If I cash in the LP at 1000, I lose isk compared to current, despite risking considerable ISK in space to achieve it. If I cash iin the LP at 1250, I am net neutral compared to current (not counting time taken to cash it in on a heavily wardecced character) If I cash in the LP at 1400, I make a mild profit of 500k per 20 minute tick, or 1.5m an hour, after allowing 70+ million to build up in space, and only whilst I leave the cash inside the ESS where it can be stolen.
If however i simply cash in highsec LP generated from missions at 1400, my -overall mission running isk generation rate- with the same class of battleship remains higher than trying to generate it with the ESS - ie 24 - 25m effective ticks on average. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1801
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 21:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tauranon wrote:The ESS needs a character assigned to loot it, to have any chance of preventing roaming gangs taking the loot.
anyone that installs its is going to attract roaming gangs. anyone that installs it and assigns a character to loot it, when there are less than 10 people in system ratting is wasting an alt account that could otherwise have been ratting. there are almost no systems on the cluster where 10 people rat at a time. Most null systems do not truly support it. It is likely to be banned in goon corps.
The pool of LP items available from Sisters has been considerably buffed over the last 2 patches. There is an even larger sink (pirate quality faction battleship), being added to the Sisters LP pool with this patch. Many other stores received mindlinks to increase the pool of LP items available.
The ESS does not hand out Sisters LP, therefore it will for the foreseeable future not be able to earn LP of the same market value that is earned by running missions in highsec for Sisters of Eve.
Most null players do not -want- the ESS.
It takes a lot more effort for me to cash LP generated on a heavily wardecced nullsec character, than it ever did as a mission runner.
---
The maths of the ESS.
I currently shoot 21m isk with a thinly tanked 6 gun, 6 damage mod domi in hubs. With the ESS in game but not installed, I will shoot 20m isk ticks, because of the blanket nerf With the ESS in game and installed, I will shoot 16m ticks with a domi. The ESS is 25m isk floating in space. The ESS will need 40m or thereabouts captured in it to make it function at its full bonus rate, so I will be risking at least 70m.
With the ESS fully bonused, I will receive 4000 LP in the tick.
With a 5 gun, 4 damage mod dominix in highsec, I will shoot a 19m tick in a Dread Pirate Scarlet. I will loot a 9m implant, and I will receive 7000 LP in 1 tick. In a blockade, I will shoot a 15.5m tick. I will receive 7000 LP in 1 tick. In 6 minutes I will recieve 7000 LP from a smash the supplier. I get a free reject per session, and I can usually accept another 2 rejects per session, so running bad missions is optional.
As Navy LP is not Sisters LP, and it is not FW store LP, it is the oldest and most worn out LP in the game.
If I cash in the LP at 1000, I lose isk compared to current, despite risking considerable ISK in space to achieve it. If I cash iin the LP at 1250, I am net neutral compared to current (not counting time taken to cash it in on a heavily wardecced character) If I cash in the LP at 1400, I make a mild profit of 500k per 20 minute tick, or 1.5m an hour, after allowing 70+ million to build up in space, and only whilst I leave the cash inside the ESS where it can be stolen.
If however i simply cash in highsec LP generated from missions at 1400, my -overall mission running isk generation rate- with the same class of battleship remains higher than trying to generate it with the ESS - ie 24 - 25m effective ticks on average. in addition to that, nothing stops you from flying a more expensive, more effective ship in lvl4s. i've had ticks as high as 26m when chaining the good missions.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
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trader joes Ichinumi
Waltaratzor Corporation
40
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Posted - 2014.01.23 22:58:00 -
[21] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:I doubt it. In many cases they might have well stayed in empire and ran missions and generated far more LP. Also FW is probably the greater danger to navy LP. I don't know about you, but people running 15,000 LP/ hour in high sec are pretty much running at a high rate. Given how much bounty ISK is generated in null, this is going to have a huge effect on LP valuation in high sec. Yes and no. Navy LP items will be reduced, so implants, ships, ammo, etc., will drop in value. The real question is how items that require tags will fare. On one hand, more LP means cheaper items. On the other hand more LP chasing the same amount of tags will increase tag prices which keeps item prices up. On a side note, I wonder if we'll see a buff to, and a tag reduction reduction requirement of faction weapons which would act as an isk sink?
The ESS also gives out tags. So tag prices should drop. |
ExcalibursTemplar
Citadel Enterprises
30
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 23:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
trader joes Ichinumi wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:I doubt it. In many cases they might have well stayed in empire and ran missions and generated far more LP. Also FW is probably the greater danger to navy LP. I don't know about you, but people running 15,000 LP/ hour in high sec are pretty much running at a high rate. Given how much bounty ISK is generated in null, this is going to have a huge effect on LP valuation in high sec. Yes and no. Navy LP items will be reduced, so implants, ships, ammo, etc., will drop in value. The real question is how items that require tags will fare. On one hand, more LP means cheaper items. On the other hand more LP chasing the same amount of tags will increase tag prices which keeps item prices up. On a side note, I wonder if we'll see a buff to, and a tag reduction reduction requirement of faction weapons which would act as an isk sink? The ESS also gives out tags. So tag prices should drop.
Where are you getting that from ? |
Tauranon
Weeesearch Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
655
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 00:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ok, I've read the new dev blog, about the old dev blog, which without properly specifying the full function of the unit, I can see enough to see that the maths in my previous worked example is WRONG.
ie the current arrangement would deposit roughly net neutral if I rat with an ESS and can convert at 1250, and there is a pool of isk to raid still in the ESS, which will be worth ~4m/tick to me.
ie there isn't a particularly compelling reason to not use an ESS at this point as the LP will largely cover the risk, and the isk in the thing is a bonus pool - at least unless nullsec ratting kills navy LP. |
Anomaly One
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
189
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 00:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
Well, thanks for the tip Dinsdale :( and I was just skilling up to do missions (lvl 2 missions atm) meh wasted sp.. back to mining, such **** income in high sec really.. Never forget. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8sfaN8zT8E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_ZjVyRxx4 Trust me, I'm an Anomaly. DUST 514 FOR PC |
Tauranon
Weeesearch Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
655
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 01:07:00 -
[25] - Quote
Anomaly One wrote:Well, thanks for the tip Dinsdale :( and I was just skilling up to do missions (lvl 2 missions atm) meh wasted sp.. back to mining, such **** income in high sec really..
Just run missions for sisters of EVE. Your wallet will enjoy it.
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Ivan Krividus
Straightedge and Compass Industrial The Crimson Tower
146
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 02:09:00 -
[26] - Quote
good. now you can just steal from an ESS in rental null instead of grinding the missions. Even a highsec carebear can just quickly dip his feet in and escape with some nice profit |
stoicfaux
3889
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 02:16:00 -
[27] - Quote
trader joes Ichinumi wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:I doubt it. In many cases they might have well stayed in empire and ran missions and generated far more LP. Also FW is probably the greater danger to navy LP. I don't know about you, but people running 15,000 LP/ hour in high sec are pretty much running at a high rate. Given how much bounty ISK is generated in null, this is going to have a huge effect on LP valuation in high sec. Yes and no. Navy LP items will be reduced, so implants, ships, ammo, etc., will drop in value. The real question is how items that require tags will fare. On one hand, more LP means cheaper items. On the other hand more LP chasing the same amount of tags will increase tag prices which keeps item prices up. On a side note, I wonder if we'll see a buff to, and a tag reduction reduction requirement of faction weapons which would act as an isk sink? The ESS also gives out tags. So tag prices should drop. Not those kind of tags. You only get tags if you "take all" from the ESS instead of using the "share" option. The share option dumps the accumulated isk into everyone's wallet appropriately (i.e. fairly.) The "take all" tags are simply markers you cash in, e.g. a "one million" tag is worth one million isk.
The LP is granted directly to you as you collect bounties. You only get LP if there's an ESS in the system.
It seems like a lot of work to get and additional 10.5% in bounties, especially when you consider that non-ESS bounties are being reduced to 95%. The LP is a nice touch, but between Navy LP stores (which is already pretty low in value,) and faction warfare, the idea of adding a flood of Navy LP from null ratting seems pretty silly.
So unless you have a lot of Navy LP, I wouldn't worry about it.
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
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Treborr MintingtonJr
Quantum Reality R n D Spaceship Samurai
148
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 08:48:00 -
[28] - Quote
Hi OP, I disagree with your assessment.
The ESS module has added risk aswell as reward (with no reward, what would be the point of it) to ratting in Null Sec, which btw is already risky with the new rubicon warp accel changes, I know this after fighting off many an interceptor in my PVE battleship.
There are many new challenges to face once it is added to the game, I'm hoping it will add conflict as people try to steal your ISK and you try to defend it.
How it will utimately perform I have no idea, so before I make further judgement on it, I will wait until I've experianced it in TQ. |
dexington
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1074
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 09:52:00 -
[29] - Quote
I can't really see how this is going to have a big impact, when you consider how much LP is being made with incursions and fractional warfare. I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
158
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 10:30:00 -
[30] - Quote
The truly amazing thing this highlights is that people still run missions for faction navies. Gotta believe they have not seen any good LP conversion is a long time anyway.
Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown |
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