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Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
3055
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Posted - 2014.01.29 15:36:00 -
[31] - Quote
Del Vikus wrote:Your hubris beggars the imagination. You suggest that the cluster should THANK capsuleers for their service to the humanizing of war?
Thank? I wouldn't have said so myself, but... While you are correct that the battle wouldn't have happened at all were it not for Empyrean ambition and greed, I'd suggest that if not us, then somebody else. Humanity's a greedy species; we can either tear our clothes and lament that fact or we can own up to the reality that killing one another in the name of transient and arguably petty gain is one of those things that humans do, prolifically and well. That isn't going to change any time soon.
What can change - indeed, has - is that our warfare can be fiercer while consuming fewer lives in proportion to that ferocity. For example: the military death toll for B-R is exceeded by the civilian death toll of the bombardment of Caldari Prime (which I mention only as a historical example, not so as to raise anti-Gallentean sentiment). I can point to land wars in the history of most every civilisation - generally late industrial-age wars - with civilian death tolls in the multiple millions.
The civilian death toll for B-R is nil. None. not a single collateral civilian death. And a number of paid volunteer crew dead which is, relative to the number that would have died had the ships involved been baseline, really rather small. How much was a human life worth in that battle? Easily a trillion ISK of ship was destroyed in B-R, and If we call it a round million dead, then each human death came at an expense of more than a million InterStellar Kredits.
I could name some wars in Caldari history where the life of the soldier was worth an infinitessimal fraction of that. Whole platoons of Raata soldiers were worth less, monetarily, than the horse their general rode, the sword he wielded and the armour he inherited. So to recap: Fewer people killed than would have been if the ships were conventionally-manned, zero civilian casualties, and more than a million ISK spent per person slain.
Seen that way, what capsuleers have actually done is to make each human life MORE valuable. I wouldn't suggest that we should be thanked for that - It wasn't our idea, after all - but these facts should at least be acknowledged and borne in mind on the other side of the fulcrum from all the bleeding-heart wailing and weeping. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Alizabeth Vea
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
565
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Posted - 2014.01.30 19:03:00 -
[32] - Quote
Using the following crew sizes as average, and I made very, very conservative estimates; the number is almost certainly higher: Titans: 60k SC: 20k Dreads and Carriers: 7.5k
Just the capitals alone bring the number of crew on board the ships to 16.76 million. This was a capital slug fest. I know at Asakai I had about 3 seconds between being locked and dead. So, ships did not die slowly, but doomsdayed and volleyed off the field. I would expect that the death toll here was easily around half that number, call it 9 million dead and almost certainly more. Editor: TheMittani.com -á If you are going anywhere else to get your Eve News, you are wrong.
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Doc Severide
State War Academy Caldari State
24
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Posted - 2014.01.31 11:42:00 -
[33] - Quote
I wonder how many of those crew were janitors cleaning toilets? Saying to themselves "Who needs this shiit?" before each flush... |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
594
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Posted - 2014.01.31 11:59:00 -
[34] - Quote
Constantin Baracca wrote:If those numbers are not reason enough to end this sort of warfare, I don't know what is. How many mothers, sons, and friends will spend their week in mourning now? If the numbers of dead were a reason enough to end wars, we would not even have any today.
But as others have pointed out, those dead in this battle were crew. Soldiers. Combatants. Armies perishing is what wars are about. To act as if this should be some sort of surprise, and lead to the end of wars, is naive to the point that it is not believable as anything else but an attempt to stress how morally superior the speaker feels.
"Oh good gods, I did not realize people are actually going to die! We can't have none of that! Let's not have a war after all!" said no field commander ever.
Else Broadcast log:-áhttps://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/Elsebeth%20Rhiannon/StatusUpdates |
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
846
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Posted - 2014.01.31 14:56:00 -
[35] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Constantin Baracca wrote:If those numbers are not reason enough to end this sort of warfare, I don't know what is. How many mothers, sons, and friends will spend their week in mourning now? If the numbers of dead were a reason enough to end wars, we would not even have any today. But as others have pointed out, those dead in this battle were crew. Soldiers. Combatants. Armies perishing is what wars are about. To act as if this should be some sort of surprise, and lead to the end of wars, is naive to the point that it is not believable as anything else but an attempt to stress how morally superior the speaker feels. "Oh good gods, I did not realize people are actually going to die! We can't have none of that! Let's not have a war after all!" said no field commander ever. Else
I'm not sure anyone would be surprised at casualty figures having come from a battlefield. I'm also not sure that is a state of humanity we should find acceptable. Casualty figures this high should have taught us all by now to find some other way of communicating.
You constantly hear the idea that we need to learn to simply cope with the figures and move on. That sounds a bit like sticking a fork in an electrical socket, losing control of our arm for fifteen minutes, and saying to suck it up and wait for the next opportunity to get into the silverware drawer. "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
-Matthew 16:26 |
Jace Sarice
Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
33
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Posted - 2014.01.31 16:36:00 -
[36] - Quote
Constantin Baracca wrote:
I'm not sure anyone would be surprised at casualty figures having come from a battlefield. I'm also not sure that is a state of humanity we should find acceptable. Casualty figures this high should have taught us all by now to find some other way of communicating.
You constantly hear the idea that we need to learn to simply cope with the figures and move on. That sounds a bit like sticking a fork in an electrical socket, losing control of our arm for fifteen minutes, and saying to suck it up and wait for the next opportunity to get into the silverware drawer.
Your credulous view of humanity and its future is piteous. The simple fact that you are continually having to defend your inane idealism should give you pause. Trust your veins. |
Claudia Osyn
Mythic Security Service
91
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 17:11:00 -
[37] - Quote
Jace Sarice wrote:Constantin Baracca wrote:
I'm not sure anyone would be surprised at casualty figures having come from a battlefield. I'm also not sure that is a state of humanity we should find acceptable. Casualty figures this high should have taught us all by now to find some other way of communicating.
You constantly hear the idea that we need to learn to simply cope with the figures and move on. That sounds a bit like sticking a fork in an electrical socket, losing control of our arm for fifteen minutes, and saying to suck it up and wait for the next opportunity to get into the silverware drawer.
Your credulous view of humanity and its future is piteous. The simple fact that you are continually having to defend your inane idealism should give you pause. The galaxy needs idealism, keeps a sunny side to things. You don't have to believe it, but it never hurts to let others bask in the glow a little.... |
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
3068
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 17:13:00 -
[38] - Quote
Sticking silverware into an electrical outlet is an obviously stupid activity which cannot have a positive outcome.
Crewing a capsuleer vessel is not. The pay is excellent, the practical skills and experience are communicable to other walks of life all over the cluster, and the risk is not so great as some pilots like to fancy. Yes, it's a gamble, yes the career is dangerous, yes, many crewpersons die or find themselves stranded in deep space without hope of rescue every year.
But most crewpersons don't. Most crew do their tour, get paid, find somewhere they can apply their hard-earned skills and cash to set up a life. For most of the people who ever man a station aboard a pod pilot's ship, their choice pays dividends and sets them up comfortably.
If it was otherwise, if stepping foot aboard one of our ships was a near-certain death sentence, then we wouldn't have crew, it's that simple. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Shiori Shaishi
Terpalen Trading Corporation
82
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Posted - 2014.01.31 17:20:00 -
[39] - Quote
Constantin Baracca wrote:You constantly hear the idea that we need to learn to simply cope with the figures and move on. That sounds a bit like sticking a fork in an electrical socket, losing control of our arm for fifteen minutes, and saying to suck it up and wait for the next opportunity to get into the silverware drawer. "A bit," yes. The analogy is flawed in that no one's ever gained moon mining claims by sticking a fork into an electrical socket. |
Claudia Osyn
Mythic Security Service
91
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 17:52:00 -
[40] - Quote
Shiori Shaishi wrote:Constantin Baracca wrote:You constantly hear the idea that we need to learn to simply cope with the figures and move on. That sounds a bit like sticking a fork in an electrical socket, losing control of our arm for fifteen minutes, and saying to suck it up and wait for the next opportunity to get into the silverware drawer. "A bit," yes. The analogy is flawed in that no one's ever gained moon mining claims by sticking a fork into an electrical socket. Um, I knew a guy who brought down a station's shields by shoving a pipe into it's primary power relay. Kinda the same thing, right? I'm sure someone found that profitable... |
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Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
848
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Posted - 2014.01.31 19:36:00 -
[41] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:Sticking silverware into an electrical outlet is an obviously stupid activity which cannot have a positive outcome.
Crewing a capsuleer vessel is not. The pay is excellent, the practical skills and experience are communicable to other walks of life all over the cluster, and the risk is not so great as some pilots like to fancy. Yes, it's a gamble, yes the career is dangerous, yes, many crewpersons die or find themselves stranded in deep space without hope of rescue every year.
But most crewpersons don't. Most crew do their tour, get paid, find somewhere they can apply their hard-earned skills and cash to set up a life. For most of the people who ever man a station aboard a pod pilot's ship, their choice pays dividends and sets them up comfortably.
If it was otherwise, if stepping foot aboard one of our ships was a near-certain death sentence, then we wouldn't have crew, it's that simple.
I think you're misunderstanding the point of the comment somewhat. I'm not saying people shouldn't get on spaceships at risk of death, I'm saying that the events that lead to these little battles that we take as read are things we can avoid. Like sticking a fork in an electrical socket.
Nobody would call crew dying a good thing that we want to have happen. Perhaps other people's crew, but crew death in general is not something you want to spend that much time, money, and effort training someone for. Not to mention the effect this has on families. The insurance check a family gets from a dead crewman's employer may be better than nothing, but a check isn't a father or a mother. It's small comfort when losing friends that they knew it was a possibility when they left. It is still avoidable.
A lot of people call me an idealist, but I think I simply don't accept the excuse that people aren't capable of something. It's a coward's argument and, if history is any indication, we're perfectly capable of overcoming our petty personal issues. I simply find it a false assumption that people can't avoid killing a million people over a financial mistake. I think it's false that we can't avoid warfare simply because we've found it so convenient so far in our history. There was a time that we couldn't fly, either.
In the end, I do think we'll learn to stop this, and future generations will look back on us as barbarians for not being able to control our tempers. Warfare is a rather ridiculous waste of lives and resources when you think about it, but especially in the capsuleer era when you might kill the relatively replaceable crew, but your enemy will simply go and buy or build another ship and fly again. The entire reason why warfare ever worked, that you permanently removed a threat, is a lot more difficult to justify when we can't permanently remove threats anymore.
But this isn't a game for the people whose lives are irreplaceable, and I'd rather those navigators, engine technicians, and cooks be able to serve freely on mining and scientific vessels than having to fly into combat where they may be killed and their lives essentially wasted, their training and potential use to the universe gone forever.
It's like we, as a species, have a problem akin to alcoholism. We like to deny it's a problem, we pretend it's just a part of everyday life no matter how much damage it does to us as a whole, and when we do realize it's a problem we run away and don't deal with it. It might be hard to not kill people because we want something, but it isn't beyond our capabilities to rise above that sort of thing. We're just so addicted to getting a temporary fix the easy way rather than a permanent solution the hard way. "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
-Matthew 16:26 |
Claudia Osyn
Mythic Security Service
91
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 20:22:00 -
[42] - Quote
To many people, with to little heart, making to much money. |
Alizabeth Vea
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
571
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 21:19:00 -
[43] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:To many people, with to little heart, making to much money. I've come to realize that Null serves a very important purpose. I'll elaborate in the next few days. Editor: TheMittani.com -á If you are going anywhere else to get your Eve News, you are wrong.
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Claudia Osyn
Mythic Security Service
91
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 22:55:00 -
[44] - Quote
Alizabeth Vea wrote:Claudia Osyn wrote:To many people, with to little heart, making to much money. I've come to realize that Null serves a very important purpose. I'll elaborate in the next few days. Looking forward to it. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
598
|
Posted - 2014.02.01 00:05:00 -
[45] - Quote
Constantin Baracca wrote: I'm not sure anyone would be surprised at casualty figures having come from a battlefield. I'm also not sure that is a state of humanity we should find acceptable. Casualty figures this high should have taught us all by now to find some other way of communicating.
Newsflash: the universe does not care whether you think we should find something acceptable or not. It also does not really confirm to your idea of how we should or should not communicate.
As many wise people tell us, "the only way to wisdom is facing the facts".
Else Broadcast log:-áhttps://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/Elsebeth%20Rhiannon/StatusUpdates |
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
851
|
Posted - 2014.02.01 01:04:00 -
[46] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Constantin Baracca wrote: I'm not sure anyone would be surprised at casualty figures having come from a battlefield. I'm also not sure that is a state of humanity we should find acceptable. Casualty figures this high should have taught us all by now to find some other way of communicating.
Newsflash: the universe does not care whether you think we should find something acceptable or not. It also does not really confirm to your idea of how we should or should not communicate. As many wise people tell us, "the only way to wisdom is facing the facts". Else
As my grandfather once wrote to me, "The day you shrug and say the world is what it is, rather than what you make it, is the day you turn off the light and resign to huddle in the dark. It is the forfeit of justice, because you deserve nothing but what the universe deigns to drop in your lap. You condemn your children to the pittance of this moment in time forever, never to know better than you decided they should.
"It would be the day you dishonored my life's work by saying you cannot be greater than I. I did not raise my children to say, to anyone, wrong living is the duty of any man or woman. The moment we have decided that we know what life is, we have proven ourselves false.
"Life is not lived by retiring in defeat, doing the will of your worst expectations." "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
-Matthew 16:26 |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
599
|
Posted - 2014.02.01 08:06:00 -
[47] - Quote
But saying something should be differently, let alone should have been differently, is not making the world any better, it is complaining about the fact that someone else has not. To really be effective in causing a change, you have to start from how things are now and build on it. Otherwise, you will be wasting effort.
Elsebeth Broadcast log:-áhttps://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/Elsebeth%20Rhiannon/StatusUpdates |
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
853
|
Posted - 2014.02.01 08:52:00 -
[48] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:But saying something should be differently, let alone should have been differently, is not making the world any better, it is complaining about the fact that someone else has not. To really be effective in causing a change, you have to start from how things are now and build on it. Otherwise, you will be wasting effort.
Elsebeth
Well, I'm doing my best from my end. The first step in effecting any change is in saying something is wrong and it should change. To do otherwise is simply to condone the outcome as right. There is no other starting point than that. To say that there is no amount of ISK that will ever compensate for even a thousand fatherless daughters and that the even lives of brave soldiers prepared to die are worth more than to be callously spent in the pursuit of mineral rights.
Surely, you don't have to be a member of DSTON to think that a million crew deaths over a missed bill payment is beyond real justification. Something went wrong in the universe we capsuleers manage and I think it is important that we don't treat the loss of crew of any magnitude with callous flippancy. Our crew aren't ship components, they are lives that trust us to wisely steward them and shepherd them through space. Maybe loss of life can never be truly erased, but this? The CEWPA warzones? It is upon us to avoid death on those scales.
I think it is always worth saying something, especially holding ourselves to a higher standard. I suppose I might be less inclined to disagree with you if I hadn't seen and know that we can be better than we are. No one wants to orphan children or leave parents to bury their sons and daughters. Every great, revolutionary turn in our universe began with a few people saying, "we are better than this!"
So why not say it? The only sure way to not improve is to never admit you have a problem. "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
-Matthew 16:26 |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
599
|
Posted - 2014.02.01 08:59:00 -
[49] - Quote
Saying "this needs to change" is useful. Saying "this should have changed already" or "this reasoning that has not convinced humans in tens of thousands of years needs to start working now" is just waste of time. Broadcast log:-áhttps://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/Elsebeth%20Rhiannon/StatusUpdates |
Sean Parisi
Fugutive Task Force A T O N E M E N T
500
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Posted - 2014.02.01 09:36:00 -
[50] - Quote
We ahould make a point to remind lesser beings of how much we "value" their lives. They must be periodically reminded. |
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Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
3069
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Posted - 2014.02.01 12:09:00 -
[51] - Quote
So edgy. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Jace Sarice
Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
33
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Posted - 2014.02.01 14:39:00 -
[52] - Quote
Constantin Baracca wrote:
So why not say it? The only sure way to not improve is to never admit you have a problem.
What exactly is the point of your pontificating? Do you actually expect to convince people or affect real change? Saying what everyone has heard before, but in longer, more emotional paragraphs does not make your idealism new or convincing. Being a pedantic sophist is not the catalyst for change you seem to think it is. Trust your veins. |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
629
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Posted - 2014.02.01 17:47:00 -
[53] - Quote
Jace Sarice wrote:What exactly is the point of your pontificating? Do you actually expect to convince people or affect real change? Saying what everyone has heard before, [..] Right back at ya. Really... The simple fact that you are continually having to attack "inane" idealism should give you pause. Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate |
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
859
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Posted - 2014.02.01 19:10:00 -
[54] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Saying "this needs to change" is useful. Saying "this should have changed already" or "this reasoning that has not convinced humans in tens of thousands of years needs to start working now" is just waste of time.
I think it's important to the discussion though, because it goes beyond the topics at hand. We see fit to suffer, as a species, because our worldview is very narrow. I think you're interpreting what I see as a symptom for a root cause; it isn't. The idea that the reasoning is glaringly obvious yet hasn't stopped our bloodthirst isn't a fact of life, it is a symptom of a more important problem: our flawed decision-making process.
So I don't think it's a waste of time to bring it up. We've made the decision for peace before (that is what a preace treaty is, just an agreement that people shouldn't fight each other) to varying degrees of effectiveness. There's nothing that stops us from trying to solve our faulted logical problems on paper. I think the point of this sophistry, as it were, is not to say, "people shouldn't go to war" but to say "people shouldn't use the same engine of logic that has constantly led to the exact same tragedy for millenia." The first statement is somewhat limited and doesn't always help us grow as a species. The latter is probably one of the root causes of human suffering.
I would posit that it is more important. "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
-Matthew 16:26 |
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
1021
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Posted - 2014.02.01 21:44:00 -
[55] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:But saying something should be differently, let alone should have been differently, is not making the world any better, it is complaining about the fact that someone else has not. To really be effective in causing a change, you have to start from how things are now and build on it. Otherwise, you will be wasting effort.
Elsebeth
Talking can make the world better.
Whether it will have any impact in this specific circumstances is questionable, but discussion both establishes norms and is the prelude to changing those norms.
I'd dare say that given how we're a group of immortals, any sort of permanent change is only going to happen by winning hearts and minds. Blowing one another up is far less effective. Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's. |
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
859
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Posted - 2014.02.02 03:25:00 -
[56] - Quote
Makkal Hanaya wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:But saying something should be differently, let alone should have been differently, is not making the world any better, it is complaining about the fact that someone else has not. To really be effective in causing a change, you have to start from how things are now and build on it. Otherwise, you will be wasting effort.
Elsebeth Talking can make the world better. Whether it will have any impact in this specific circumstances is questionable, but discussion both establishes norms and is the prelude to changing those norms. I'd dare say that given how we're a group of immortals, any sort of permanent change is only going to happen by winning hearts and minds. Blowing one another up is far less effective.
Perhaps something positive about the presence of capsuleers? True ship captains have the option to go down with the ship and to never deal with the ramifications. We capsuleers get to return, note our crew deaths, and write letters to the families.
Not only is killing each other becoming less effective, but we get to experience the full weight of military costs even if our ships are destroyed with us on it?
It's food for thought at least. "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
-Matthew 16:26 |
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