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Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
226
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Posted - 2014.01.30 15:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
I am uncertain whether the combined effect of the following modules CCP has released with Rubicon 1.1 was intentional or not, but let's examine WHAT CCP released this patch:
-ESS Module, early warning for bears in wh space (not sure if intended). It broadcasts in local whenever someone jumps into a wormhole its anchored near. This means for only 25 million isk, you don't even have to have an alt watching your static to know someone has scouted your escalation/site running fleet!
-Mobile D-Scan Inhibitor--Caps? What caps? Just a few random wrecks all over the place...
To be honest, while in an escalation site, most likely wrecks will be out of range of the ESS (maybe not if you position your caps, webs, and module right), but sometimes they might not. Keep in mind, the bears ALREADY, have early warning, so now your scout has to dscan EVERY site and then WARP to it if these modules are up to determine if caps/site ships/a noctis are even out... meaning bears don't even have to actively watch local, bu only glance at it occasionally, to effectively get away....
-Mobile Micro Jump unit--I hope your interceptors favor scrams over long point, otherwise, that tengu ball you just bubbled will be gone in about 12 seconds.... Also, caps get tackled? Well, any subcaps are definitely getting away... unless your give up long points for scrams.
Rubicon 1.1 should have been called "Bears Iceskating in Wh Space," because that is exactly what CCP has created.
In summary: -ESS: warly warning -D can inhibitor: hunting delay--ensures get away -Micro Jump Unit: completely fail? That's ok. EVE really isn't harsh anymore. We'll give you a module that ignores bubbles and points, and you can still get your tengu ball to safety. Join End-of-Line, -EOL, today, and kill your CEO! (Terms and conditions apply.)
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bubble trout
Sky Fighters
182
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Posted - 2014.01.30 15:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
ESS?
Any competent bears will roll holes before doing escalations so ess is useless to them anyway. Lower class people probably won't wreck their isk/hour for it, as you can't scoop it and you need one at every hole.
D-scan thingy? If I see one I KNOW someone has been in that hole in the last hour and wanted to hide SOMETHING. If your scouts can't take that hint they are bad.
Mobile jump thingy? A load of meh, and you can use it too if they drop it iirc.
Really nothing here to be mad about if ganking site runners is all you do. |
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
226
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Posted - 2014.01.30 15:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
bubble trout wrote:ESS?
Any competent bears will roll holes before doing escalations so ess is useless to them anyway. Lower class people probably won't wreck their isk/hour for it, as you can't scoop it and you need one at every hole.
D-scan thingy? If I see one I KNOW someone has been in that hole in the last hour and wanted to hide SOMETHING. If your scouts can't take that hint they are bad.
Mobile jump thingy? A load of meh, and you can use it too if they drop it iirc.
Really nothing here to be mad about if ganking site runners is all you do.
Ganking site runners isn't all I do, but it is something I do and it is valid.
The mobile d-scan inhibitor will delay getting eyes on a fleet who just got an early warning--and not all bears crit their static. They won't even need to with an ESS deployed. If we get a scout through someone's static and they've been escalating, its likely their noctis may be behind a site or two... meaning thats more clusters of wrecks we'd have to warp to in order to locate caps... That's a delay, with a fleet that just got an early warning....
I have no problem with people getting away who are smart, but EVE shouldn't have an easy mode, and this is not just easy mode, this is putting carebears on God-mode properly setup.
All it does is make wormhole space even less dangerous and wild. It isn't right. It isn't wormhole. Join End-of-Line, -EOL, today, and kill your CEO! (Terms and conditions apply.)
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Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition Insurance Fraud.
641
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Posted - 2014.01.30 15:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
Don't be so dramatic. The MMJD takes 60 seconds to anchor, 12 seconds to activate, and 20 seconds to cycle. The MDI makes it take slightly longer to find the fleet. D-scan is still your enemy. And really, ESS isn't going to see much use, maybe some tactical applications but why would anyone bother regularly. There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency. |
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
226
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Posted - 2014.01.30 15:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tul Breetai wrote:Don't be so dramatic. The MMJD takes 60 seconds to anchor, 12 seconds to activate, and 20 seconds to cycle. The MDI makes it take slightly longer to find the fleet. D-scan is still your enemy. And really, ESS isn't going to see much use, maybe some tactical applications but why would anyone bother regularly.
You assume a lot, and I'm just pointing out that the current system can be manipulated in a way that (I hope) CCP did not intend.
Also, I really see some groups keeping the micro-jump drive anchored at each site, and just paying for it out of site proceeds. There was a time in my EVE career I would have, and I know bears who would today. The potential for unlimited, unharassed carebearing in absolute safety with these combined modules is staggering.
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Chancey Pants
Flying With Animals Animal Farms
17
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Posted - 2014.01.30 15:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
Now I have not tried the ESS yet but according to the dev blog the person who anchored it can scoop it. However you are supposed to only be able to anchor one per system.
If you combine all of these methods with the discovery scanner it makes for some pretty close to risk free ratting. I might not say easy mode because you still have to be alert, but it will make the job of a hunter several times harder than it was before.
On a side note if I drop the mobile micro jump drive and the attackers have no scrams all sub caps are getting away. Drop the unit align to POS. Activate the deployable and as soon as you land spam warp to insta warp back to the pos. The attackers are more than welcome to use the module but if used correctly they still can't catch you.
I vote if they want to buff ratting this much they need to start looking for some deployable which benefits the hunter MA Orly. Last I checked this is supposed to be a PvP centric game. All the severs upgrades and performance modifications are great for large scale null fights, but not everyone is into that crap.
Ganking is fun and a very valid playstyle. To bad it does not seem that the developers feel the same way. |
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
226
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Posted - 2014.01.30 15:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
Chancey Pants wrote:Now I have not tried the ESS yet but according to the dev blog the person who anchored it can scoop it. However you are supposed to only be able to anchor one per system.
If you combine all of these methods with the discovery scanner it makes for some pretty close to risk free ratting. I might not say easy mode because you still have to be alert, but it will make the job of a hunter several times harder than it was before.
On a side note if I drop the mobile micro jump drive and the attackers have no scrams all sub caps are getting away. Drop the unit align to POS. Activate the deployable and as soon as you land spam warp to insta warp back to the pos. The attackers are more than welcome to use the module but if used correctly they still can't catch you.
I vote if they want to buff ratting this much they need to start looking for some deployable which benefits the hunter MA Orly. Last I checked this is supposed to be a PvP centric game. All the severs upgrades and performance modifications are great for large scale null fights, but not everyone is into that crap.
Ganking is fun and a very valid playstyle. To bad it does not seem that the developers feel the same way.
I would completely support more modules that countered these. Join End-of-Line, -EOL, today, and kill your CEO! (Terms and conditions apply.)
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Jay Joringer
Serene Vendetta
315
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Posted - 2014.01.30 15:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
Rall Mekin wrote:
The mobile d-scan inhibitor will delay getting eyes on a fleet who just got an early warning--and not all bears crit their static. They won't even need to with an ESS deployed. If we get a scout through someone's static and they've been escalating, its likely their noctis may be behind a site or two... meaning thats more clusters of wrecks we'd have to warp to in order to locate caps... That's a delay, with a fleet that just got an early warning....
Explain to me how they set up an ESS on your freshly opened K162 and what would be stopping you from scouting the D-scan inhibitor. Or even sending tackle to multiple inhibitors?
Try and keep up with the curve. "Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." -Anais Nin
http://smug-bastard.blogspot.co.uk/ |
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
226
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Posted - 2014.01.30 16:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jay Joringer wrote:Rall Mekin wrote:
The mobile d-scan inhibitor will delay getting eyes on a fleet who just got an early warning--and not all bears crit their static. They won't even need to with an ESS deployed. If we get a scout through someone's static and they've been escalating, its likely their noctis may be behind a site or two... meaning thats more clusters of wrecks we'd have to warp to in order to locate caps... That's a delay, with a fleet that just got an early warning....
Explain to me how they set up an ESS on your freshly opened K162 and what would be stopping you from scouting the D-scan inhibitor. Or even sending tackle to multiple inhibitors? Try and keep up with the curve.
Its not so much the inhibition, as the early warning and delay these modules cause in hunting, if you had actually read the original post--and its update. To get kills on the risk-averse multitude of zombified wormhole bears, you have to be quick, and this is fundamentally changing wormhole space.
Also, our new, open K162 already gives early warning enough. The ESS provides warning to people who are being lazy by broadcasting in local--and there's already a threadnought in formation about it. Join End-of-Line, -EOL, today, and kill your CEO! (Terms and conditions apply.)
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Tasiv Deka
End-of-Line
202
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Posted - 2014.01.30 16:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tul Breetai wrote:Don't be so dramatic. The MMJD takes 60 seconds to anchor, 12 seconds to activate, and 20 seconds to cycle. The MDI makes it take slightly longer to find the fleet. D-scan is still your enemy. And really, ESS isn't going to see much use, maybe some tactical applications but why would anyone bother regularly.
Anchor MMJD on landing at site/getting into range/whatever when someone lands or is spotted by ESS immediately use the MMJD and start alligning to pos meanwhile they have to go through all the scan inhibitors you dropped before hand to act as decoys (granted this one isnt as big a deal) and then once your MMJD has thrown you you should be fully alligned towards pos and can warp to safety.
Also as to whoever said you can also use their MMJD you realize its in a straight line 100 kms away... if you arent perfectly in line with them then you can end up quite aways away. Also lock is broken from the warp and if theyre prealligned then they will warp as soon as they are catapulted.
Personally im still more upset theyre wasting time with these lame modules instead of fixing all the other ones that need fixing *coughs* POSes *coughs* Oh, Do go on... no seriously ive got nothing better to do then listen to all the petty arguments and feeble trolling attempts...-á
The sad thing is i'm not sure if i'm telling the truth. |
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Caius Beriat
Whale Girth Grand Sky Wizards
130
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Posted - 2014.01.30 16:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jay Joringer wrote:Rall Mekin wrote:
The mobile d-scan inhibitor will delay getting eyes on a fleet who just got an early warning--and not all bears crit their static. They won't even need to with an ESS deployed. If we get a scout through someone's static and they've been escalating, its likely their noctis may be behind a site or two... meaning thats more clusters of wrecks we'd have to warp to in order to locate caps... That's a delay, with a fleet that just got an early warning....
Explain to me how they set up an ESS on your freshly opened K162 and what would be stopping you from scouting the D-scan inhibitor. Or even sending tackle to multiple inhibitors? Try and keep up with the curve.
Smart arse. |
Nitrah
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
37
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Posted - 2014.01.30 16:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
Wait. What?
ESS is for nullsec. Not wormholes. You can't deploy them in WH space. If nullbears are dumb enough to put their new toy right next to the wormhole, I will laugh my ass off, take their loot, and duck back in 2 minutes later. If you think a guy who is so cowardly that they hide in their POS at the first sign of a covops is going to come to a wormhole with unknown hostiles on the other side, you need to learn a little more about human nature.
Furthermore, the d-scan inhibitors are really small radius and they're two way. You can't see in, but neither can they see out. They're also pricey, last a short time, and can't be scooped. Oh, they also have the Sig radius of a capital ship. They're PvP tools. Not PvE hiding tools.
That tengu ball you bubbled will have been moving around before you got there, and it takes time to anchor the MJD.
Read more. Think more. Complain less. |
Caius Beriat
Whale Girth Grand Sky Wizards
131
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Posted - 2014.01.30 16:24:00 -
[13] - Quote
Nitrah wrote:Wait. What?
ESS is for nullsec. Not wormholes. You can't deploy them in WH space..
Did you test this before you opened your trap?
Test more, write less.
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Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
226
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Posted - 2014.01.30 16:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
Nitrah wrote:Wait. What?
ESS is for nullsec. Not wormholes. You can't deploy them in WH space. If nullbears are dumb enough to put their new toy right next to the wormhole, I will laugh my ass off, take their loot, and duck back in 2 minutes later. If you think a guy who is so cowardly that they hide in their POS at the first sign of a covops is going to come to a wormhole with unknown hostiles on the other side, you need to learn a little more about human nature.
Furthermore, the d-scan inhibitors are really small radius and they're two way. You can't see in, but neither can they see out. They're also pricey, last a short time, and can't be scooped. Oh, they also have the Sig radius of a capital ship. They're PvP tools. Not PvE hiding tools.
That tengu ball you bubbled will have been moving around before you got there, and it takes time to anchor the MJD.
Read more. Think more. Complain less.
Read the threadnought next door. You can anchor an ESS on a wormhole, which has a 30km warp bubble effect (not a big deal for us honestly), but it broadcasts in local when you enter.
The problem is the early warning it gives, which is just... bad... for wormhole space. It makes it less dangerous.
Previously, if you wanted early warning, you had to commit manpower to watch holes and cycle probes. That was largely done away with when new signatures randomly would appear on your odyssey scanner. Now you get a magical module that tells you whenever anyone comes through your static--or a random wormholes that opened you are too lazy to close.
I'm just saying. Join End-of-Line, -EOL, today, and kill your CEO! (Terms and conditions apply.)
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Le'Mon Tichim
End-of-Line
121
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Posted - 2014.01.30 16:25:00 -
[15] - Quote
Jay Joringer wrote:Rall Mekin wrote:
The mobile d-scan inhibitor will delay getting eyes on a fleet who just got an early warning--and not all bears crit their static. They won't even need to with an ESS deployed. If we get a scout through someone's static and they've been escalating, its likely their noctis may be behind a site or two... meaning thats more clusters of wrecks we'd have to warp to in order to locate caps... That's a delay, with a fleet that just got an early warning....
Explain to me how they set up an ESS on your freshly opened K162 and what would be stopping you from scouting the D-scan inhibitor. Or even sending tackle to multiple inhibitors? Try and keep up with the curve.
Just because you open into a new chain, doesn't mean the chain is new. We've had plenty of ganks happen because they didn't know we'd opened up further down the pipe.
I think the point Rall is trying to make, is that if you don't know the ESS is on the other side of a hole you just found, if the people who set it up are running sites, they'll be behind shields before you're out of the bubble. The ESS has had the (apparently) unintended side effect of providing true bears with a 'fire-and-almost-forget' radar. The only exception is of course, sieged/triaged capitals, but honestly, I don't see this being that big of a deal in c5 and c6 space. Only silly people who aren't fond of their capitals run sites without a proper scout, or a severely reduced static.
The D-scan inhibitor? Wouldn't want to dump ANY of those on my escalation fleet, because I can't see out, and that's not worth the trade of someone seeing in. I'd rather them see me, and me see them, instead of having surprise Bhaalgorns, you know?
The MMJD is a gimic at best.
I don't see life changing much in proper wormhole space. The ESS might have the largest impact, but don't must of us find it hilarious when null dwellers panic when neutrals are in system? Imagine knowing and not being able to see them at all... Can you hear them? They are calling to us. It is beautiful. http://thegreattichim.wordpress.com/ |
Nitrah
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
37
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Posted - 2014.01.30 16:27:00 -
[16] - Quote
Caius Beriat wrote:Nitrah wrote:Wait. What?
ESS is for nullsec. Not wormholes. You can't deploy them in WH space.. Did you test this before you opened your trap? Test more, write less.
If that's the case, I assure you, it will be gone within the week. |
Caius Beriat
Whale Girth Grand Sky Wizards
131
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Posted - 2014.01.30 16:33:00 -
[17] - Quote
Nitrah wrote:Caius Beriat wrote:Nitrah wrote:Wait. What?
ESS is for nullsec. Not wormholes. You can't deploy them in WH space.. Did you test this before you opened your trap? Test more, write less. If that's the case, I assure you, it will be gone within the week.
So you're saying you DIDN'T test it?
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Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
226
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Posted - 2014.01.30 16:38:00 -
[18] - Quote
Nitrah wrote:Caius Beriat wrote:Nitrah wrote:Wait. What?
ESS is for nullsec. Not wormholes. You can't deploy them in WH space.. Did you test this before you opened your trap? Test more, write less. If that's the case, I assure you, it will be gone within the week.
You are assuming CCP actually gives a d*amn.... I really think we might be waiting a while if we don't raise all kinds of hell about this...
Join End-of-Line, -EOL, today, and kill your CEO! (Terms and conditions apply.)
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Jay Joringer
Serene Vendetta
316
|
Posted - 2014.01.30 17:32:00 -
[19] - Quote
So, has anyone actually used an ESS defensively so they can POS up their shinies before the nasty men land on grid to kick down there sandcastles or is this all just unsustainable reactionary opinion about something that hasn't happened yet?
I'm not saying it shouldn't be changed. I'm saying creating another rant thread based on hypotheticals probably isn't the most inspired way of dealing with it. "Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." -Anais Nin
http://smug-bastard.blogspot.co.uk/ |
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
228
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Posted - 2014.01.30 18:55:00 -
[20] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4173651#post4173651
Fozzie has declared this is a bug and that it will be fixed, at least as far as the ESS goes. I will relent on my complaints. Join End-of-Line, -EOL, today, and kill your CEO! (Terms and conditions apply.)
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Nitrah
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
37
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Posted - 2014.01.30 19:29:00 -
[21] - Quote
Caius Beriat wrote:Nitrah wrote:Caius Beriat wrote:Nitrah wrote:Wait. What?
ESS is for nullsec. Not wormholes. You can't deploy them in WH space.. Did you test this before you opened your trap? Test more, write less. If that's the case, I assure you, it will be gone within the week. So you're saying you DIDN'T test it?
Obviously not.
Saw ranting about the world ending and assumed he didn't know WTF he was talking about. Should have assumed CCP didn't know WTF they were doing instead. |
Trinkets friend
Rules of Acquisition Acquisition Of Empire
1395
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Posted - 2014.01.31 00:46:00 -
[22] - Quote
Here is the thing with the scan inhibitor.
You can sit a cloaky 31km away from it and OMFG DO YOU GET D-SCAN?! YES YOU DO!!!! YOLO is the Carpe Diem of Gen Y http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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sussybunny Vyvorant
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.01.31 11:34:00 -
[23] - Quote
LMFAO
Is all the null dwellers getting upset coz its not to their favour
Such a shame lol |
Sandslinger
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
139
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Posted - 2014.01.31 12:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
regarding the ESS
Every response shouting down the people making a case that this is bad for WH space is :
They can't anchor it on incoming K162 in time.
This makes a massive assumption that all pvp in wormhole space comes from players cycling into others wormholes via their static. this is wrong, narrowminded and frankly the players posting this should know better.
On average 50% of our chain at any time is K162,s we have connected to major groups down our chain that have no idea we are connected to them tons of times often via extending our chains via connecting K space for example.
Before they would miss our scout coming in to have a looksie because no wh entity has scouts on every hole all the time.
NOW. Now every K162 you jump into the residents or even forward scouts will know instantly not only that you were there but they don't even have to see you on overview because local highlights your identity immediatly.....
This module destroys the one thing I and seemingly many others love about wormholes which is the ability to roam arund anonymous hunt and look at people. /Yes I am a peeping tom
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Malception
Cosmology
307
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Posted - 2014.01.31 13:23:00 -
[25] - Quote
The "Carebears Iceskating in WH Space" expansion is pretty accurate, I think. At least on the broad strokes (hehe, I said "stroke").
In the meantime I say we, the depraved followers of Bob's PvP mandate, take ESS modules anchored on WH's to be a stand-in for a sign reading "Please evict us at your earliest convenience." |
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
83
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Posted - 2014.02.01 22:16:00 -
[26] - Quote
ESS has to go even ccp agree with that. But i fail to see why the other 2 are carebare modules. If the carebears you speak of use the scan inhibitor, they will have a scanner outside it looking for sigs so what is the diffrence? They make it harder for themselfs to spot incoming fleets if they are disciplined engoufg to stay within 30 k. And the Mobile micro jump unit is only 5 k ehp, wich dies faster then a hickup. If you can't kill it before the enemy fleet jumps out then you will probably won't have the dps to kill the fleet anyway. |
Joan Greywind
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
314
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Posted - 2014.02.02 05:05:00 -
[27] - Quote
Rall Mekin wrote:
In summary: -ESS: warly warning -D can inhibitor: hunting delay--ensures get away -Micro Jump Unit: completely fail? That's ok. EVE really isn't harsh anymore. We'll give you a module that ignores bubbles and points, and you can still get your tengu ball to safety.
This is broken CCP, FFS....
Update #1: I forgot to mention, has everyone forgotten we all get a new sig that appears on dscan whenever someone rolls into you? People have already gotten easy-mode warning of an incoming connection without the need to manage probes....
I mean, when I joined wormhole space, it was dangerous... It seems like CCP has repeatedly undermined this danger, even in an environment that is the MOST ISK-RICH IN GAME. ISK availability and risk should go hand in hand. I completely and absolutely oppose anything, intentional or not, that makes w-space less safe, even if it means my own corp/myself loosing shinies.
1- Going to be patched (already did maybe)
2- False assumption of safety? A good scout will get around it easily, also much easier to actually scan down.
3- You know you can use it too, and inties can easily do the 50km neccessary in the spool up time, it also needs to anchor and has really low ehp. Hopefully that will make long range metas a little more viable, as all we see are brawly in your face setups in wh space.
But I do agree with the relative safety of wh space now. Unless a fleet is ready and ragerolling you have no way of getting caught doing sites (escalations) unless you massively **** up. And ragerolling means you can only get killed by chance. The only thing keeping escalations a little bit dangerous is blood union, and sadly they can't occupy more than 1-2 holes at any given time. The only other remote threat is evictions but since the cost doesn't justify the effort, especially that you can self destruct inside the pos shields.
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