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Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
122
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 16:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, age old question probably.
Why are sentries treated like ship turrets, in the sense they can only engage targets within the drone control range of the ship. As in. I land at the beacon, deploy drones and MJD away in the oposite direction the targets are at. My drones are still within my control range, but not the targets. So when I have the drones engage, they simply don't.
Is this intended, and if so why?
It makes more sense (to me anyway) for the drones to be able to engage targets if the drones themselves are within the control range, regardless of where the target is relative to the ship.
Again, not an F&I, just curious to know why isn't this a thing. This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165 |
ElQuirko
Black Dragon Fighting Society The Devil's Tattoo
3294
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 17:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cause the legacy code. This is an F&I, insofar as I've suggested it myself in that forum to no avail. Dodixie > Hek |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19059
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 17:29:00 -
[3] - Quote
Because what else would you call that range? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
122
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 17:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Because what else would you call that range? How about falloff? This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165 |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1491
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 17:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
I am in favor of drone control range being abolished as part of a full drone overhaul, provided of course some compensation is provided for owners of relevant modules/rigs/bpos "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19059
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 17:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
Erufen Rito wrote:Tippia wrote:Because what else would you call that range? How about falloff? That's something completely different and drones already have that. Even if it were GÇ£availableGÇ¥, It doesn't particularly describe what the range is about. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
122
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 17:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Erufen Rito wrote:Tippia wrote:Because what else would you call that range? How about falloff? That's something completely different and drones already have that. It doesn't even describe what the range is about. You seem to not understand what the name is naming. Why would you want a name for something that already has a name? This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19060
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 17:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
Erufen Rito wrote:You seem to not understand what the name is naming. Why would you want a name for something that already has a name? I understand just fine. You apparently don't get why drone control range is and/or why it's called GÇ£drone control rangeGÇ¥. Once you understand what it is, neither the naming nor the functionality is all that strange.
Therefore, I'm asking you what else they're supposed to call it. GÇ£FalloffGÇ¥ is a bad idea because that's something completely different (which doesn't do what you're describing). Also, the alteration you're suggesting would be a hideous nerf to drones everywhere.
So: renaming GÇ£drone control rangeGÇ¥ to GÇ£falloffGÇ¥ would be bad for two reasons: it overlaps with an existing term and it doesn't describe what it is the range of. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
122
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 17:57:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Erufen Rito wrote:You seem to not understand what the name is naming. Why would you want a name for something that already has a name? I understand just fine. You apparently don't get why drone control range is and/or why it's called GÇ£drone control rangeGÇ¥. Once you understand what it is, neither the naming nor the functionality is all that strange. Therefore, I'm asking you what else they're supposed to call it. GÇ£FalloffGÇ¥ is a bad idea because that's something completely different (which doesn't do what you're describing). Also, the alteration you're suggesting would be a hideous nerf to drones everywhere. So: renaming GÇ£drone control rangeGÇ¥ to GÇ£falloffGÇ¥ would be bad for two reasons: it overlaps with an existing term and it doesn't describe what it is the range of. Ok. Explain this then. Hobgobs that are engaged on a target 70km off. What is their range? *Hint* it's not 70km. This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19060
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 18:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
Erufen Rito wrote:Ok. Explain this then. Hobgobs that are engaged on a target 70km off. What is their range? 1km base +2km falloff + skill, ship, and module bonuses. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
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Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
122
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 18:04:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Erufen Rito wrote:Ok. Explain this then. Hobgobs that are engaged on a target 70km off. What is their range? 1km base + skill, ship, and module bonuses. Ok, so you and I agree that the range of a drone is independant of the drone control range.
So why is that sentries that can hit up to 80km cannot engage a locked target that falls out of the drone control range? This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19060
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 18:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
Erufen Rito wrote:So why is that sentries that can hit up to 80km cannot engage a locked target that falls out of the drone control range? Because they fall outside the drone control range. That's the entire purpose of having the range.
Just place your drones better and/or move closer. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
122
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 18:12:00 -
[13] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Erufen Rito wrote:So why is that sentries that can hit up to 80km cannot engage a locked target that falls out of the drone control range? Because they fall outside the drone control range. That's the entire purpose of having the range. Just place your drones better and/or move closer. I'll get you a picture, you don't seem to understand the problem here. This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19060
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 18:16:00 -
[14] - Quote
Erufen Rito wrote:I'll get you a picture, you don't seem to understand the problem here. I do. You just don't seem to understand the answer or the solution: the range is there to limit how far away you can direct your drone, so you have to actually fly close in order to attack someone. The solution to the problem you're having is to fly close in order to attack them. It's called GÇ£drone control rangeGÇ¥ because what else would you call it? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
937
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 18:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
Erufen Rito wrote:Tippia wrote:Erufen Rito wrote:So why is that sentries that can hit up to 80km cannot engage a locked target that falls out of the drone control range? Because they fall outside the drone control range. That's the entire purpose of having the range. Just place your drones better and/or move closer. I'll get you a picture, you don't seem to understand the problem here.
LOL.
I get what TIppia is saying just fine.
Hobgoblins can attack anything within their drone control range (which incidentally is the targets distance from the ship not from the drones). In other words you can't send them 50km to Target A and then another 50km to Target B unless your Drone Control Range is 100k+
In the same way you can't put your sentries 50km from a target, MJD to 150KM from the target and then tell the Sentries to shoot at the target unless your Drone Control Range is 150km+.
More importantly, drones are stupid. Get some Cruise Missiles and then MJD.
"You should just create one thread and put all of your complaints in it instead of littering the forums with multiple threads." ~CCP Falcon
[Member of The BrownCoat Syndicate] |
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
122
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 18:23:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Erufen Rito wrote:I'll get you a picture, you don't seem to understand the problem here. I do. You just don't seem to understand the answer or the solution: the range is there to limit how far away you can direct your drone, so you have to actually fly close in order to attack someone. The solution to the problem you're having is to fly close in order to attack them. It's called GÇ£drone control rangeGÇ¥ because what else would you call it? You don't. Your "solution" adresses a non issue, as illustrated here.
http://i.imgur.com/L2gp16o.png
The black circle in section A represents the current system. Sentries will engage anything within the black circle, even if the targets within the red circle are also locked. Anything beyond those 2 circles is irrelevant.
Section B represents how it should work. The drones are still within the black circle, as in, within the drone control range, just like the hobgobs on my prevous post, and yet should be able to engage anything within the red cyrcle. So long as the drones don't drop out of the drone control range, the range of the drones (found the name of your term btw) should be respected. This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19060
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 18:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
My solution solves the problem that has been designed into the game: that you need to fly closer to your target to attack it. It addresses your problem just fine, since that's the exact problem you're having. So again, I understand your problem just fine; you don't understand the answer I'm giving you; you also don't understand the terminology or the implications of your suggested change.
Quote:The black circle in section A represents the current system. Sentries will engage anything within the black circle, even if the targets within the red circle are also locked. Actually, no, that's not how it works right now. You've left out a third circle that is pretty relevant for what drones will and won't attack GÇö the proximity trigger.
Quote:Section B represents how it should work. Why should it work like that? Why do you want to design away the limitation that you have to move close to your target in order to attack it? Moreover, if drone control range was changed to be the range to your drones, it would mean that you would lose the ability to chase your target; the ability for drones to chase the target; and the ability to recover drones over long ranges. All of those are bad things, by the way. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
122
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 19:09:00 -
[18] - Quote
Tippia wrote:My solution solves the problem that has been designed into the game: that you need to fly closer to your target to attack it. It addresses your problem just fine, since that's the exact problem you're having. So again, I understand your problem just fine; you don't understand the answer I'm giving you; you also don't understand the terminology or the implications of your suggested change. If the drones were outside of the drone control range, this would be correct.
Quote:]Actually, no, that's not how it works right now. You've left out a third circle that is pretty relevant for what drones will and won't attack GÇö the proximity trigger. As far as I know *and i could be wrong* sentries have a very low activation range,f or the fact that they are (mostly)stationary.
Quote:Why should it work like that? Why do you want to design away the limitation that you have to move close to your target in order to attack it? Moreover, if drone control range was changed to be the range to your drones, it would mean that you would lose the ability to chase your target; the ability for drones to chase the target; and the ability to recover drones over long ranges. All of those are bad things, by the way. This right here highlights the fact that you do not understand what I'm getting at. I have never implied that the drone range should be the drone control range. Why should it work like that? Basic Transmiter/receiver relationships. The ship is the transmiter, the drone is the receiver. If the receiver is within the transmietr's range, it should carry out it's task, just like any other drone type does. It's not taking away any limitation. If the ship were to move far enough to leave the drones outside of the control range, the drones would stop being controled by the ship. Just like when you MWD so fast your drones can't catch up and all they do is try to follow you.
If the sentry is still within the drone control range, it's own range properties should be unaffected, and thus, be able to engage anything within it's own range. This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19063
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 19:38:00 -
[19] - Quote
Erufen Rito wrote:If the drones were outside of the drone control range, this would be correct. It is correct regardless. Drone control range has nothing to do with the range to your drones.
Quote:As far as I know *and i could be wrong* sentries have a very low activation range,f or the fact that they are (mostly)stationary. The only thing in the game that has longer proximity activation is POS turrets so you're almost as wrong as can be.
Quote:This right here highlights the fact that you do not understand what I'm getting at. I have never implied that the drone range should be the drone control range. GǪwhich I didn't suggest either, so I have no idea where you got that, unless you keep misunderstand what the ranges involved actually are. Again, the solution to your problem is that you are too far away from your target. The solution to that problem is to move closer to your target. Nothing about this suggestion implies anything about drone range being the same as drone control range unless you fundamentally don't understand what those two ranges represent.
Quote:Why should it work like that? Basic Transmiter/receiver relationships. No. Mechanically; gameplay-wise; balance-wise GÇö why should it work like that? Lore is utterly and completely irrelevant as far as mechanics, gameplay, and balance is concerned. It's a completely optional after-thought, not a design consideration.
Again: the purpose of drone control range is to limit from how far away you can attack your targets. You are suggesting that this limit be removed. I'm asking you why and you're only giving me a meaningless lore answer that doesn't provide any reason. Why do you want to design away the limitation that is there to make sure you have to move close to your targets in order to attack them? Also, you do realise that if you want drone control range to do something completely different GÇö e.g. limit how far away you can be from your drones GÇö then it will be a massive nerf to the flexibility and usefulness of drones, right?
Quote:If the sentry is still within the drone control range, it's own range properties should be unaffected, and thus, be able to engage anything within it's own range. Good news: this is already the case. You just (still) don't understand what the different ranges GÇö drone control range, drone optimal, drone proximity etc GÇö represent. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
122
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 19:43:00 -
[20] - Quote
Seems logic is wasted on you.
Moving on.
Anyone else got any insight? This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165 |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19064
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 19:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
Erufen Rito wrote:Seems logic is wasted on you. Seems fact is wasted on you. Logic works fine if you provide some. So far, you haven't. You've just made unsupported, unfounded, often incorrect claims and appeals to irrelevant post-hoc constructions. Try some actual logic, and you might have a bit more success.
Quote:Anyone else got any insight? The facts won't change just because you don't like them.
Again: the mechanic is there to limit from how far away you can attack your target. You want to remove that limit. Why should such a change happen? Have you considered all the other effects it would have on drone use if you restricted how far away your drones can be?
In the meantime, if the target is too far away (by design) for you to attack it, try moving closer (the intended effect of the limitation). If you aren't happy with this as an obvious solution, could you explain why? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
122
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 19:51:00 -
[22] - Quote
That is the problem right here dude. I'm saying that the way it works is broken and incorrect. hence why it's a discussion. I never once asked how it worked. You've been here wasting my time all along repeating what i've known all this time: the mechanic is working incorrectly.
I've provided plenty of logic. i even drew you a picture. I'm glad you know how to use a thesaurs to build on your character.
I have indeed considered all of the effects it would happen, and I found no problem with it. So far, you've contribuited nothing to this conversation. Moving on. This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19064
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 19:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
Erufen Rito wrote:That is the problem right here dude. I'm saying that the way it works is broken and incorrect. And I'm asking why and how.
How is it broken? It works exactly the same as for every other weapon system in the game: there's a limit to how far away you can be from your target and still attack it (thereby giving them a chance to attack you right back at the same range). Why should they abolish the limitation that is there to make you have to be close enough to your target to be targeted right back?
Quote:I never once asked how it worked. No, but it had to be explained to you since how it works is very closely connected to why it works like that, and since your question of why seems to be rooted in a misunderstanding of the how. Three birds with one stone and all that.
Quote:I've provided plenty of logic. i even drew you a picture. You drew a picture of how you want it to work. You didn't provide any logic as to why they should change the mechanics to make it work that way (and no, lore is an utterly insufficient reason).
Quote:I have indeed considered all of the effects it would happen, and I found no problem with it. So not being able to target far-away ships is not a problem? Not being able to recall your drones isn't a problem? Drones not being able to hunt fleeing targets isn't a problem? Drastically shifting the balance between sentry ships and other ships is not a problem? No. You haven't considered the effects at all. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Azeroth Uluntil
e X i l e The Initiative.
11
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 20:04:00 -
[24] - Quote
Working as intended. Stop asking stupid questions please. |
Icylce
The Chosen 0nes Mildly Sober
16
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 20:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
This is a problem indeed and I was confused how it works too. Control range terminology-wise should be range in which u can give command to your drones. However if it worked like this, even the non stationary drones would be able to engage targets far outside of control range, if the command to attack was given inside the control range.
This would most likely cause major balance issue, hence the control range was designed as area where the drones can engage targets. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2888
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 20:10:00 -
[26] - Quote
Ok, so, just recapping the situation as I understand it: http://i.imgur.com/3i6tpJg.png
You are wondering why, in this situation, your drones cannot shoot the target when the target is outside your drone control range, despite the target being in your drones range.
Mechanically, this would be broken. Like OP broken so bad that nobody else would fly any snipers that are not Ishtars or Dominixes. Reason being, as the distances are labeled in my diagram, a ship sniping with sentry drones would come out to an effective range of Dt = Ddc + Ddw. This is a problem because there are range-enhancing mechanics for both of the component ranges of this total range.
More simply put, a Dominix with Garde IIs has would have the following stats:
- 750 DPS using 3 DDAs, from a range of:
- 171 km away: 132 km drone control range after 3x Drone Link Augmentor II, and 58 km Garde II optimal 3x scripted Omnidirectional Tracking Link II (completely discarding falloff range)
- 0.0495 rad/s tracking for the drones
- 402 CPU and 10 PG fitting costs, across 9 slots
Compare this to the quintessential sniping ship, the Rokh. When firing at that sort of range, it can only do:
- 406 DPS using 3 MFSs, from a range of:
- 152 km away, using 3x range scripted Tracking Computer IIs
- 0.0207 rad/s tracking, using 2x tracking scripted Tracking Computer IIs
- 709 CPU and 1664 PG fitting costs, across 16 slots
All other battleships fall even shorter. That is not what "balance" looks like.
If you would like to rationalize why drones can't do this, you can imagine that your ship needs to "paint" a target for the drones to hit, and it cannot paint targets further than your drone control range. You can even rename "drone control range" to "drone target paint range" if that helps. The name "drone control range" is misleading anyway, since it is not the "signal" range of your ship, but rather a cap on the range from you to your drone's targets. Rifterlings - small gang frigate PvP - lowsec pirate operation, newbie-friendly, free ship program; Join today! www.rifterlings.com
Accidentally The Whole Frigate (blog) - Learning how to pew pew, one loss at a time - www.thewholefrigate.com |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2888
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 20:21:00 -
[27] - Quote
Addendum: if you would like to abolish drone control range, or change it to a more sensical "drone signal range" mechanic, where you cannot control drones outside that range, but other than that they can do whatever, that can only be OK balance-wise with a big reduction in DCR across the board.
How about 10 km base, +4 km per level of Electronic Warfare Drone Interfacing? Rifterlings - small gang frigate PvP - lowsec pirate operation, newbie-friendly, free ship program; Join today! www.rifterlings.com
Accidentally The Whole Frigate (blog) - Learning how to pew pew, one loss at a time - www.thewholefrigate.com |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
993
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 20:21:00 -
[28] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Erufen Rito wrote:That is the problem right here dude. I'm saying that the way it works is broken and incorrect. And I'm asking why and how. How is it broken? It works exactly the same as for every other weapon system in the game: there's a limit to how far away you can be from your target and still attack it (thereby giving them a chance to attack you right back at the same range). Why should they abolish the limitation that is there to make you have to be close enough to your target to be targeted right back? This lost me a bit. Drone control range is not the same as the limitations of other weapons systems, but rather an addition as drones are subject to all the same limits and more. Granted drones without drone control range set to aggressive might be an issue, but even then you could only take advantage of this by having the enemy aggress you, which means there were within range, or they were within targeting range and were directed to attack, in which case it's no different than any other weapon. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2888
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 20:24:00 -
[29] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Tippia wrote:Erufen Rito wrote:That is the problem right here dude. I'm saying that the way it works is broken and incorrect. And I'm asking why and how. How is it broken? It works exactly the same as for every other weapon system in the game: there's a limit to how far away you can be from your target and still attack it (thereby giving them a chance to attack you right back at the same range). Why should they abolish the limitation that is there to make you have to be close enough to your target to be targeted right back? This lost me a bit. Drone control range is not the same as the limitations of other weapons systems, but rather an addition as drones are subject to all the same limits and more. Yeah, I'm not sure what Tippia is talking about. With any other weapon, if you can lock a target, you can attempt to shoot it. Drones have the extra DCR limitation that hard-caps the distance away from you a target may be, which is often lower than the DCR. Rifterlings - small gang frigate PvP - lowsec pirate operation, newbie-friendly, free ship program; Join today! www.rifterlings.com
Accidentally The Whole Frigate (blog) - Learning how to pew pew, one loss at a time - www.thewholefrigate.com |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19068
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 20:25:00 -
[30] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:This lost me a bit. Drone control range is not the same as the limitations of other weapons systems, but rather an addition as drones are subject to all the same limits and more. For other weapons: locking range and optimal range establishes an area around your ships where your weapons can be used to engage your target. If you're too far away, you fly closer.
For drones: locking range and drone control range establishes an area around your ship where you weapons can be used to engage your target. If you're too far away, you fly closer.
vOv GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
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