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Nui' Va
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Posted - 2006.04.04 23:20:00 -
[1]
i can't seem to understand how the Brokers fee's and Tax's work...
they are normaly 10% each...
but they can be lowerd with those 2 skills, and Tax's can also be lowerd but good standing right?
anyone got some numbers that might help calculate that? fx. i if i set an Sellorder for 500k i would know what the Brokkers fee and Tax fee..
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Sae Eha
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Posted - 2006.04.05 20:57:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Nui' Va i can't seem to understand how the Brokers fee's and Tax's work...
they are normaly 10% each...
but they can be lowerd with those 2 skills, and Tax's can also be lowerd but good standing right?
anyone got some numbers that might help calculate that? fx. i if i set an Sellorder for 500k i would know what the Brokkers fee and Tax fee..
Might want to try the Skills forum for that one, but I'll give it a shot anyway..
First, Broker Fee and Tax are 1% each, not 10%.
Accounting will reduce the Sales Tax by 10% for each level. So, if you have it at level 5, you'll have a 50% tax reduction... in other words, you'll only pay 0.5% sale tax.
Broker Relations reduces Broker Fees by 5% each level. At level 5 you'll pay 25% less for puting up orders.. or 0.75%
To illustrate it a bit some examples.
You sell something for 500k (no order, so only Accounting helps here) (Acc 0; Broker Rel 0) 1.0% sale tax = 5k (Acc 5; Broker Rel 5) 0.5% sale tax = 2.5k
You sell something for 500k by order (both skills help here) (Acc 0; Broker Rel 0) 1.0% tax + 1.00% fee = 10k (Acc 5; Broker Rel 5) 0.5% tax + 0.75% fee = 6.25k
You buy something for 500k by order (only Broker Rel. helps.. the person filling your order will have to pay the sale tax for obvious reasons ;) ) (Acc 0; Broker Rel 0) 1.00% broker fee, or 5k (Acc 5; Broker Rel 5) 0.75% broker fee, or 3.75k
not exactly sure how standing plays into this, so I'll leave it to others to explain.. but I'd say it's fairly safe to say the better your standing, the less taxes you pay. ;)
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.08 19:53:00 -
[3]
As far as I can tell no one in EVE has ever posted the exact formulas for how standing impacts the Broker Fees and then how Broker Relations plays into this.
I can tell you that with 6.7 standing and 0 broker relations you pay .7% fees.
With 9.4 standing and level 4 broker relations you pay .3% fees.
So I'm a bit lost on how they both factor in. Generally 6.7 standing is the max standing that has any impact on fees/etc. But broker relations is only supposed to remove .05 per level, not .1. It sure seems like broker relations is actually removing .1 per level tho, which makes it even more valuable than otherwise thought. Although, it could be working correctly and instead the difference is the 9.4 standing over 6.7 standing. Which means having the 9.4 standing is getting me a 50% reduction off base fees, which is quite a good incentive for traders to run missions.
If anyone has a better idea of how this works, please post. I've been unable to find any more detailed math on this subject before.
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Matalino
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.12.08 22:17:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Shadarle Generally 6.7 standing is the max standing that has any impact on fees/etc.
6.7 is the magic number for refining tax, but not for broker fees. Your 9.4 standing is mostly what is making most of that difference, not the broker relations skill.
So far I have not seen anyone publish the formula for how brokerage fees are calculated. As far as I can tell no one has figured it out and the Dev's haven't released it. My last testing showed that it was your standing before deplomacy and connections that was used for broker fees. But since Rev was released my brokerage fees have gone down, and I am thinking that social skills now effect brokerage fees much like how they are now used for jump clones. I haven't done any proper testing to verify this just yet, but I plan to keep an eye on it.
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Pang Grohl
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.12.09 00:14:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Matalino
Originally by: Shadarle Generally 6.7 standing is the max standing that has any impact on fees/etc.
6.7 is the magic number for refining tax, but not for broker fees. Your 9.4 standing is mostly what is making most of that difference, not the broker relations skill.
So far I have not seen anyone publish the formula for how brokerage fees are calculated. As far as I can tell no one has figured it out and the Dev's haven't released it. My last testing showed that it was your standing before deplomacy and connections that was used for broker fees. But since Rev was released my brokerage fees have gone down, and I am thinking that social skills now effect brokerage fees much like how they are now used for jump clones. I haven't done any proper testing to verify this just yet, but I plan to keep an eye on it.
That would explain the significantly lower broker fees I'm paying now.(.03 compared to .085 according to the contracts screen)
Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting) |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.10 22:39:00 -
[6]
We always payed less than the listed number on the orders window. Mine always listed .8 and it still does. However, when placing an order it now lists the final percentage as well. I thought I always payed the same as I do now, it simply lists the correct % now. Tho I could be saving a little bit due to the connections skill now being added in as well.
In any case... that really blows that more standing is required for market orders. I may have to train up a few levels of broker relations on my alt just to make sure tho.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.11 21:43:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Shadarle on 11/12/2006 21:56:33 Edited by: Shadarle on 11/12/2006 21:44:20 I'm seeing some very odd results trying to figure out the formula on this... here is what I've got so far:
Fac StdCorp StdBRFee%FeePrice 6.132.0140.0041807369.0288267.31 6.134.2340.0037957335.0488267.31 1.796.7000.0072228636.7788161.22 1.796.7010.0068616604.9388161.22 6.139.4640.0030267267.1688267.31 2.916.5120.0057949511.5088267.31 1.791.8210.0086430762.8988267.31
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SencneS
Amarr Keepers of the Holy Bagel
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Posted - 2006.12.11 22:26:00 -
[8]
I tried working on a formula for this too.
I looked at the way "refining" tax worked with standing and tried to apply it to brokers and tax.
My thoughts where they would use a similar formula when it comes to TAX. They are not going to have a heap of different calculations based of standing. Then again they might....
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.11 23:08:00 -
[9]
One thing that actually may have to be taken into account is FACTION standing... I know that would be confusing, but it may be the faction standing for brokers fee.
It definitely seems that Broker Relations is applied AFTER standing making it take off 5% of the remaining standing, not actually 5%.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.12 04:26:00 -
[10]
Fac Std - Fac Std 2 - Corp Std - Corp Std 2 - BR - % - Without BR % 1.79-0.67-1.82-0.70-1-0.86430%-0.90978% 1.79-0.67-1.82-0.70-2-0.81880%-0.90978% 1.79-0.67-6.70-6.25-0-0.72228%-0.72228% 1.79-0.67-6.70-6.25-1-0.68616%-0.72228% 1.79-0.67-6.70-6.25-2-0.65005%-0.72228% 1.79-0.67-6.83-6.39-2-0.64624%-0.71804% 1.79-0.67-6.84-6.41-2-0.64572%-0.71746% 1.79-0.67-6.78-6.34-2-0.64345%-0.71494% 2.43-1.39-6.69-6.24-4-0.53912%-0.67390% 2.91-1.95-6.51-6.04-2-0.57949%-0.64388% 6.13-5.97-2.01-1.67-4-0.41807%-0.52259% 6.13-5.97-4.23-3.99-4-0.37957%-0.47447% 6.13-5.97-9.46-9.44-4-0.30267%-0.37834%
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.13 02:57:00 -
[11]
Ok. I have some very rough formulas that do not work completely but they are a good start imo.
Some basics: 1. Broker Fees are based on both Faction Standing and Corp Standing 2. Broker Relations skill is factored in after the Faction/Corp Standing 3. It appears there is a linear relationship between Faction/Corp Standing and Broker Fees. 4. It appears that below 2.0 Corp Standing the formulas change (not quite sure why).
Corp Standing Formula y = 0.019x + 0.441
Faction Standing Formula 0.054x + 0.117
These are not 100% right by any means. I'm still working on it though and thought I'd post incase someone might have some insights.
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OutOfTheBox Cyborg
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Posted - 2006.12.14 02:15:00 -
[12]
the 'npc corp standings skill' (?connections? -in the social skills) only applies to friendly corps. Could that be why your figures for your fourth point are different when below a standing of 2 to the station. Is below a standing of 2 neutral rather than friendly or something like that?
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.14 04:33:00 -
[13]
Good thought, but no. Anything 0.0 and above gets the benefit from connections. Not sure if any of the negative standings do.
I'm glad someone is at least reading the thread tho, lol.
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Pang Grohl
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.12.14 15:38:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Shadarle Good thought, but no. Anything 0.0 and above gets the benefit from connections. Not sure if any of the negative standings do.
I'm glad someone is at least reading the thread tho, lol.
Connections doesn't, but Diplomacy does benefit aid the negative standings.
Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting) |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.14 17:43:00 -
[15]
Hmmm... I wonder if connections is the reason after all for my trend. Not for the reasons listed though.
Perhaps Connections isn't taken into account when determining broker fee. Connections has a much larger impact on people with lower standings... thus it would throw off the numbers at the low end a lot more than the high end and the line would have an y-intercept of 2.0 instead of 0. I have already been listing my standings with/without connections, so I will just re-run the graphs/trends without it and see if I can get better numbers.
Thanks for the idea
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.22 20:50:00 -
[16]
Bump to try and gather more info on this. If anyone has more ideas let me know. I'm still collecting info after every mission I run.
I also now use the standing listing from the reprocessing window as it goes to 8 digits passed the decimal. Once I get enough with this added accuracy I will post my updated formulas...
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.29 03:26:00 -
[17]
Ok. I have confirmed that connections/diplomacy are not counted when calculating the broker fee. This means to calculate the fee you have to remove your connections bonus from your standings. This is not quite as easy as it seems. You can't simply use your standing value on your personal info page because it is rounded to 2 digits, which is not nearly enough for a good calculation.
So. To get an 8 digit standing, use the reprocessing tab in a station and write that number down.
Then, do this:
StandingWithConnections - (0.04 * ConnectionsSkillLevel * (10-StandingWithConnections))
You then compare that to the discount you're getting from your standing. You get this discount from this process:
Go to the market, select any item on the market and begin to place a buy order. Put the buy price at 100,000,000 (100 million isk).
Then write down the broker fee they charge you for this, every digit of it.
Then use this formula to determine the savings you're getting from standing.
(0.01 - ((BrokerFee / 100,000,000) / (1 - (BrokerRelationsSkillLevel * 0.05))) * 100
You can then plot your StandingWithoutConnections vs SavingsFromStanding.
I have gotten an approximate value for how much corp standing impacts your broker fee... but I have yet to figure out how Faction standing plays into this, which it definitely does. I will keep posting as I find out more, but it would be very helpful if anyone that can follow this relatively basic math could help out by doing some calculations of their own.
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Zattron
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Posted - 2007.01.02 04:02:00 -
[18]
I dont have much to add, but i have notices that since revelations , when I sell an item in gallente space, my broker fee is lik 1.4%. In Jita 4 it is 0.4%. I have great caldari standing and horrible gallente standing. Kinda sucks that it went up for gallente, but I guess sin the end it all balances out.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.01.02 05:00:00 -
[19]
Nothing has changed in how much you're paying since Kali. The only change is that it now shows more accurately what the % actually is. Previously it never listed the %. Unfortunately it is only 1 digit currently, would be nice if it listed 2-3 digits so people would better realize how much faction helps your fees.
Tanking Setups Compared
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.01.12 20:22:00 -
[20]
Bump for some more help on this.
Tanking Setups Compared
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.02.14 21:22:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Shadarle on 14/02/2007 21:22:31 Edited by: Shadarle on 14/02/2007 21:18:21 Reposting this from a thread in a different forum that I posted in.
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I've been working on developing this formula for a while and I'm very close to having it nailed down.
Faction standing plays a very large role. Corp standing plays a role too. Broker Relations is calculated AFTER your standing, thus it has very little impact if you have good standing.
It is an exponential curve for both faction and corp standing, but neither are very extreme curves... just enough to make you think they are linear and screw up your math if you attempt it.
My numbers are not perfect yet but they come out to something like this:
(0.00004136 * (FACTIONSTND^2)) - (0.0009912 * FACTIONSTND) + (0.00000379 * (CORPSTND^2)) - (0.00021641 * CORPSTND)
Once you've done this math you then have to add the resulting number to 1% and then account for Broker Relations. This will get you your broker fee. However it is not nearly perfect yet and I'm still working to get a much more simplified or more accurate equation.
If people are willing to help I can upload a large table of broker fees/standings/requisite skills. The standing calculations are done from base standings, not taking into account Connections or other such skills. To get an accurate corp standing click on the Refine tab and get the 8+ decimal number from that to use in calculations. If anyone has a way to get a longer decimal for faction standing PLEASE tell me.
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A special note: The broker fee you're quoted when placing an order is not very accurate. It rounds the number greatly. To get an exact number open up a buy order window and list the price at 100,000,000 isk (for 1 unit) and then look at the actual broker fee you pay. Divide it out and get your actual fee.
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Genji Ancient
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Posted - 2007.09.23 18:20:00 -
[22]
With 6.64 Caldari State (7.17 with connections skill but that doesn't count) and 9.61 with Caldari Navy (9.68 with connections also doesn't count) and Broker Relations Rank 5
I have an actual broker fee of 0.246%.
With Accounting at 5, I have sales tax at 0.5%
If anyone has a higher faction standing with similar skills, I'd like to know what kind of broker fee perecnt you have in order to see if it's worth increasing faction any more.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.09.23 18:51:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Genji Ancient Edited by: Genji Ancient on 23/09/2007 18:30:27 With 6.64 Caldari State (7.17 with connections skill but that doesn't count) and 9.61 with Caldari Navy (9.68 with connections also doesn't count) and Broker Relations Rank 5
I have an actual broker fee of 0.264%.
With Accounting at 5, I have sales tax at 0.5%
If anyone has a higher faction standing with similar skills, I'd like to know what kind of broker fee perecnt you have in order to see if it's worth increasing faction any more.
Holy necro batman. But since this is the post I provided most of my info in I don't mind so much.
I indeed have a higher standing and with broker relations at 4 I was paying about .202% if I recall correctly. I can't log in again at the moment, but I do have broker relations 5 as of the last day or two. I have not yet bothered to look at the new percent I'm paying. I will try to post again later today with my actual percentages. But I do have a formula that somewhat works now I believe... tho I haven't used it lately so I can't be sure.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.09.24 17:36:00 -
[24]
I have a broker fee of .23291075% with
BR: 5 Faction (Before connections skill): 7.79 Corp (Before connections skill): 9.93
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SencneS
Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.09.25 20:00:00 -
[25]
I know this thread is old but it's still not closed (Not an accurate formula)
I think it might help if you pin point what effect the Corp standing does by comparing a corp in which you have 0.0 standing with but under the same faction and seeing what the fee is.
Then going to places with standing and get a formula based of that.
A few key information
6.6666666666666666666 (2/3) is the magic number for 0 refine/reprocessing tax and it's a where 0% = 2/3rd standing. ME calculations are based on a % where 10% is the normal and ever ME level is a % off that 10% over the original amount.
Even Shield recharge rate and stacking is all about the % of what is left over the total amount. So it wouldn't surprise me if this fee is also based off a %.
Amarr for Life |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.09.25 20:33:00 -
[26]
Originally by: SencneS I know this thread is old but it's still not closed (Not an accurate formula)
I think it might help if you pin point what effect the Corp standing does by comparing a corp in which you have 0.0 standing with but under the same faction and seeing what the fee is.
I did this a very long time ago. I have recorded several hundred fees based on different corp/faction standings. All the way from 0/0 to 9.93/7+ and all sorts of combinations between them. I've even gotten some negative standings as well, which do negatively impact your fees.
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Aerpe
Minmatar Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2007.09.26 18:03:00 -
[27]
Imho, the best way to reduce universal taxes. Commit to trading from the start. Don't do any missions and max out Social skills.
Just a thought and that's what I did.
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SencneS
Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.09.26 18:47:00 -
[28]
What you really need is someone who doesn't have any social or trade skills but 10.0 Faction and 10.0 Corp standings and see what they get.
However I think the lowest "Fee" you can get is 0.2321343 why?
((((0.3*.95)*.95)*.95)*.95)*.95 = 0.2321343%
So that tells me that no matter what your standing is, 0.3% is the lowest you'll get to with standing. Then Broker relations does the rest.
How do you work out what your fee would be without Broker Relations.
(((((((((TAX/95)*100)/95)*100)/95)*100)/95)*100)/95)*100
If you have level 5 Broker Relations. If you have anything less you take out "/95)*100" per level below 5.
Then all you need to do is work out what effect standing has on that number, start with 1% and keep working standing formulas until you get to that number.
Amarr for Life |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.09.26 20:01:00 -
[29]
Originally by: SencneS What you really need is someone who doesn't have any social or trade skills but 10.0 Faction and 10.0 Corp standings and see what they get.
However I think the lowest "Fee" you can get is 0.2321343 why?
((((0.3*.95)*.95)*.95)*.95)*.95 = 0.2321343%
So that tells me that no matter what your standing is, 0.3% is the lowest you'll get to with standing. Then Broker relations does the rest.
How do you work out what your fee would be without Broker Relations.
(((((((((TAX/95)*100)/95)*100)/95)*100)/95)*100)/95)*100
If you have level 5 Broker Relations. If you have anything less you take out "/95)*100" per level below 5.
Then all you need to do is work out what effect standing has on that number, start with 1% and keep working standing formulas until you get to that number.
I have no clue where you got any of that from.
First, where did you get .3 as the lowest you'll get with standing?
Second, how did you decide to do .95*.95*.95, etc? BR5 = *.75, not .95^5.
Third, you don't need a character with 0 skills and 10/10 standing. It is quite easy to mathematically remove broker relations and calculate what your non-skilled fees would be. As I said you also have to remove your connection skills from your standing before doing any calculations.
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SencneS
Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.09.27 00:00:00 -
[30]
OK I've spent the last 2 days working on this assuming Broker fees was compounded not a flat rate.
This changes a lot
Working off the fact you and I have some high Corp standing and you have high faction standing, I do not however. I have a Fee of 0.40912677% with BR4. This means that Faction does play a role but it's very minor. BR5 would bring me to 0.383556347%
Corp Standing 9.43 Faction Standing 3.49
I'm been working of the fact that the difference in Corp standing is so minimal I've been concentrating on Faction standing. We're talking 16% difference for over double the faction standing.
0.3... It's my theory, working on the bases that CCP probably intended to ALWAYS have a broker fee as a ISK sink. And how close you are to 0.225% it's just the number that seems to fit.
I though for a second 1/3 of 1% but that doesn't fit at all 0.3 seems to generate some numbers that are more in line with what everyone has said. It could be wrong but it has to be close.
And we've also seen CCP set a value, we see it in Refining and ME/PE formulas. So it's reasonable to think CCP set a "rock bottom" value in it's formula. It also helps for balancing to have a solid value which can be easily adjusted instead of having to re-vamp the entire formula.
Amarr for Life |
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