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Bobbi Huffman
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.02.06 11:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm looking at getting into indy stuff, more precisely invention and manufacturing in a single high sec pos.
I'm really looking for confirmation that my understanding and plan is feasible.
Lets say my plan is to constantly build vargurs (i'd spread out into different products but for simplifications sake ill say only vargurs) -I'd build a medium high sec pos, buy a tempest bpo, using the bpo make tempest bpcs (running 1 at a time, 15 hours per copy so 105 hours to get 10 bpcs.) ME PE dont matter if in inventing. -Id invent these bpc's (maximum 10) and say get 4 vargur bpcs at the end, build the 4 vargurs using the bpcs and profit.
Im pretty clued up with most game mechanics, played on off since 2005 have just somehow avoided the manufacturing/invention side of things.
Id not be planning on building bs level stuff to start this is just a proof of concept to see if theres anything im missing.
Cheers for any help :) |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
3147
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Posted - 2014.02.06 11:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
That's basically it. Though you probably want to avoid ships, and you probably want to build your own T1 stuff and T2 components.
Whatever you do, run the numbers to make sure you can sell at a profit. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1200
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Posted - 2014.02.06 11:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
the only problem is see is the "constantly" part. not everything is constantly profitable, you need to be able to adapt to situations like this, if you can only build vargurs and vargurs start being a bad idea you have a problem. spread your investments :) We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
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Jaro Essa
Dahkur Forge
4
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Posted - 2014.02.06 12:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
Bobbi Huffman wrote: -I'd build a medium high sec pos, buy a tempest bpo, using the bpo make tempest bpcs (running 1 at a time, 15 hours per copy so 105 hours to get 10 bpcs.) ME PE dont matter if in inventing. -Id invent these bpc's (maximum 10) and say get 4 vargur bpcs at the end, build the 4 vargurs using the bpcs and profit.
POS research labs work faster than station ones. IIRC, a mobile lab copies at 0.75x normal time, and an advanced mobile lab copies at 0.65x normal time, so a 1 run Tempest BPC (that would normally take 15 hours with Science V) would take either 11.25 or 9.75 hours.
If you want to build ships, look into decryptors also. For T1 and non-ship production you'll typically be losing money using decryptors, but they are often very worthwhile when it comes to T2, especially ships, where the margins justify their use. |
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
1260
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 12:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
The only thing missing is the initial (and continuing) market research necessary. Not everything is profitable to invent, manufacture and sell all the time.
While ME and PE isn't important on the invention side, T2 ships and mods require the T1 item to be built and so you may want a researched BPO for that. |
Bobbi Huffman
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.02.06 12:17:00 -
[6] - Quote
cheers for all the replies, so aslong as i have the basic mechanics and understanding down, its all on my head for the researching side so woooooo, cheers :) |
Bobbi Huffman
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.02.06 12:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
using a small pos as a testing ground with 2x mobile labs and 1x component assembly array, is this feasible? just for say building cap booster IIs |
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
1260
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Posted - 2014.02.06 12:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
2 mobile labs and an advanced mobile lab may well be better, or a mobile and 2 advanced. Copying can easily be more of a bottleneck than anything else. That said, it's feasible to use station labs/factories for everything |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
2631
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 13:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/
Handy for invention. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9! http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
1401
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Posted - 2014.02.06 15:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:the only problem is see is the "constantly" part. not everything is constantly profitable, you need to be able to adapt to situations like this, if you can only build vargurs and vargurs start being a bad idea you have a problem. spread your investments :) This is the biggest lesson to know. Diversity of production is key.
The consequence of that is you need a stock of BPCs on the ready so you can quickly switch to a new item the moment the market tanks. Sometimes it's obvious (heavy missile nerf + Drakes) other times you need some trend data.
See the link in my signature for something to help. GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour! |
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Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1578
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Posted - 2014.02.06 16:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
Is there ever a case in ship invention where its worth using multi-run bpcs? Maybe not even max-run ones but enough to maybe hit certain sweep spots with regard to copy time and getting an extra run on the invented bpc? Expanding my invention spreadsheet to include bpc runs is complicated. I can imagine switching to max-run bpcs if I have gobs of extra copy time while not doing invention, but even in this case perhaps it would still be more effective to make 1-run bpcs for resale. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
1401
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Posted - 2014.02.06 16:28:00 -
[12] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Is there ever a case in ship invention where its worth using multi-run bpcs? Maybe not even max-run ones but enough to maybe hit certain sweep spots with regard to copy time and getting an extra run on the invented bpc? Expanding my invention spreadsheet to include bpc runs is complicated. I can imagine switching to max-run bpcs if I have gobs of extra copy time while not doing invention, but even in this case perhaps it would still be more effective to make 1-run bpcs for resale. Max runs don't have an effect on invention anymore. Just a one run copy for ships and then the decryptor is all that is needed to get the most out of your time.
The reasoning is that the max runs is below the threshold that the formula to calculate the end invention runs won't be anything greater than 1 + the decryptor modifier. So using 15 or 1 gets the same result. GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour! |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1578
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 18:05:00 -
[13] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:Batelle wrote:Is there ever a case in ship invention where its worth using multi-run bpcs? Maybe not even max-run ones but enough to maybe hit certain sweep spots with regard to copy time and getting an extra run on the invented bpc? Expanding my invention spreadsheet to include bpc runs is complicated. I can imagine switching to max-run bpcs if I have gobs of extra copy time while not doing invention, but even in this case perhaps it would still be more effective to make 1-run bpcs for resale. Max runs don't have an effect on invention anymore. Just a one run copy for ships and then the decryptor is all that is needed to get the most out of your time. The reasoning is that the max runs is below the threshold that the formula to calculate the end invention runs won't be anything greater than 1 + the decryptor modifier. So using 15 or 1 gets the same result.
Thanks. It used to be that you could only get the decryptor run bonus if you used max-run bpcs, but now it looks like it will apply no matter what. Its not just that it won't be greater than 1+ modifier, but that even with 1-run bpcs, it won't be less than 1+modifier either. Also, it looks like the results aren't exactly the same. It looks like the final runs will always be MAX(1, decryptor_run_bonus). The exception is that if you use a max-run BPC and a decyptor that has a +1 or greater bonus, the final runs will be 1+decryptor_run_bonus.
Invention Output Runs = MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN( (Input_T1_BPC_Runs / T1_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus), 1), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy) "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
3508
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Posted - 2014.02.06 18:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Zifrian wrote:Batelle wrote:Is there ever a case in ship invention where its worth using multi-run bpcs? Maybe not even max-run ones but enough to maybe hit certain sweep spots with regard to copy time and getting an extra run on the invented bpc? Expanding my invention spreadsheet to include bpc runs is complicated. I can imagine switching to max-run bpcs if I have gobs of extra copy time while not doing invention, but even in this case perhaps it would still be more effective to make 1-run bpcs for resale. Max runs don't have an effect on invention anymore. Just a one run copy for ships and then the decryptor is all that is needed to get the most out of your time. The reasoning is that the max runs is below the threshold that the formula to calculate the end invention runs won't be anything greater than 1 + the decryptor modifier. So using 15 or 1 gets the same result. Thanks. It used to be that you could only get the decryptor run bonus if you used max-run bpcs, but now it looks like it will apply no matter what. Its not just that it won't be greater than 1+ modifier, but that even with 1-run bpcs, it won't be less than 1+modifier either. Also, it looks like the results aren't exactly the same. It looks like the final runs will always be MAX(1, decryptor_run_bonus). The exception is that if you use a max-run BPC and a decyptor that has a +1 or greater bonus, the final runs will be 1+decryptor_run_bonus. Invention Output Runs = MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN( (Input_T1_BPC_Runs / T1_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus), 1), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)
I may be wrong, but I thought you still needed to use a max run BPC to get the decryptor run bonus with two notable exceptions: Ships and Rigs.
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Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1581
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Posted - 2014.02.06 20:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Batelle wrote: Thanks. It used to be that you could only get the decryptor run bonus if you used max-run bpcs, but now it looks like it will apply no matter what. Its not just that it won't be greater than 1+ modifier, but that even with 1-run bpcs, it won't be less than 1+modifier either. Also, it looks like the results aren't exactly the same. It looks like the final runs will always be MAX(1, decryptor_run_bonus). The exception is that if you use a max-run BPC and a decyptor that has a +1 or greater bonus, the final runs will be 1+decryptor_run_bonus.
Invention Output Runs = MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN( (Input_T1_BPC_Runs / T1_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus), 1), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)
I may be wrong, but I thought you still needed to use a max run BPC to get the decryptor run bonus with two notable exceptions: Ships and Rigs.
If the formula I cited is correct, then you're wrong. Especially as the previous poster mentioned the formula had changed.
ROUND_DOWN( (Input_runs/Max_input_runs) * (t2_max_runs/10) + runs bonus ) means a run bonus of +2 or greater will always result in a 2-run or greater bpc.
I recall the old formula, and back then the run bonus was definitely added before dividing by max runs, or the run bonus was multiplied by the ratio. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
1401
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 20:37:00 -
[16] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Batelle wrote: Thanks. It used to be that you could only get the decryptor run bonus if you used max-run bpcs, but now it looks like it will apply no matter what. Its not just that it won't be greater than 1+ modifier, but that even with 1-run bpcs, it won't be less than 1+modifier either. Also, it looks like the results aren't exactly the same. It looks like the final runs will always be MAX(1, decryptor_run_bonus). The exception is that if you use a max-run BPC and a decyptor that has a +1 or greater bonus, the final runs will be 1+decryptor_run_bonus.
Invention Output Runs = MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN( (Input_T1_BPC_Runs / T1_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus), 1), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)
I may be wrong, but I thought you still needed to use a max run BPC to get the decryptor run bonus with two notable exceptions: Ships and Rigs. If the formula I cited is correct, then you're wrong. Especially as the previous poster mentioned the formula had changed. ROUND_DOWN( (Input_runs/Max_input_runs) * (t2_max_runs/10) + runs bonus ) means a run bonus of +2 or greater will always result in a 2-run or greater bpc. I recall the old formula, and back then the run bonus was definitely added before dividing by max runs, or the run bonus was multiplied by the ratio. Here is the note from Inferno with this change:
- Fixed an issue where BPCs invented with decryptors would sometimes have one less production run than they should have.
When I updated IPH with this, I wrote this in my patch notes:
- Basic change to the invention runs formula is that max run BPCs are no longer required to get the 1 run from the BPC in addition to the Decryptor bonus. For example: A 1 run BPC before using a User Manual (+2 Runs) would result in 2 runs. After Inferno you get 3 (1 from BPC and +2 from Decryptor).
Here is the formula I use. It works, but I haven't had anyone critique it - positive or negative, since I haven't seen an update I just came up with my own. Most of the formulas I see on the web are the old one.
- OLD FORMULA: InventedRuns = MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN( (InputT1BPCRuns / T1BPCMaxRuns) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus), 1), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)
- MY NEW FORMULA: InventedRuns = MIN(MAX((InputT1BPCRuns / T1BPCMaxRuns) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)
Basically I just took out the ROUND_DOWN function.
Hope that helps. GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour! |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Test Alliance Please Ignore
510
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 20:42:00 -
[17] - Quote
If you're making T2 stuff from invention, you'll need enough copy lines and BPOs to make sufficient BPCs to keep your invention lines running. You'll need to regularly be buying or finding datacores and decryptors for your invention runs. Once you have that part down, then you can think the manufacturing part.
The actual building of T2 stuff is little different than T1. Since you have the POS up and running, might as well make use of it and place the appropriate assembly array beside your labs. Also, you may want to consider making your T2 components as well.
As always its up to you and the market to decide if its more profitable to make the components or just buy them. Free Ripley Weaver! |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1583
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 21:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:Here is the note from Inferno with this change:
- Fixed an issue where BPCs invented with decryptors would sometimes have one less production run than they should have.
When I updated IPH with this, I wrote this in my patch notes:
- Basic change to the invention runs formula is that max run BPCs are no longer required to get the 1 run from the BPC in addition to the Decryptor bonus. For example: A 1 run BPC before using a User Manual (+2 Runs) would result in 2 runs. After Inferno you get 3 (1 from BPC and +2 from Decryptor).
Here is the formula I use. It works, but I haven't had anyone critique it - positive or negative, since I haven't seen an update I just came up with my own. Most of the formulas I see on the web are the old one.
- OLD FORMULA: InventedRuns = MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN( (InputT1BPCRuns / T1BPCMaxRuns) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus), 1), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)
- MY NEW FORMULA: InventedRuns = MIN(MAX((InputT1BPCRuns / T1BPCMaxRuns) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus, 1), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)
Basically I just took out the ROUND_DOWN function. Hope that helps.
In your post here you forgot the second argument of the MAX function. But you still need rounding or you get non-integer runs. It needs to be a round up I think, that way you always get 1 run from your bpc and the decryptor modifier is always used. Round down was taking away a run from every invention job with less than max runs. Changing it to a round up means that you will indeed always get 1+modifier for final runs, and would also keep it capped at 1+modifier for max-run bpcs as well. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
1401
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 02:55:00 -
[19] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Zifrian wrote:Here is the note from Inferno with this change:
- Fixed an issue where BPCs invented with decryptors would sometimes have one less production run than they should have.
When I updated IPH with this, I wrote this in my patch notes:
- Basic change to the invention runs formula is that max run BPCs are no longer required to get the 1 run from the BPC in addition to the Decryptor bonus. For example: A 1 run BPC before using a User Manual (+2 Runs) would result in 2 runs. After Inferno you get 3 (1 from BPC and +2 from Decryptor).
Here is the formula I use. It works, but I haven't had anyone critique it - positive or negative, since I haven't seen an update I just came up with my own. Most of the formulas I see on the web are the old one.
- OLD FORMULA: InventedRuns = MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN( (InputT1BPCRuns / T1BPCMaxRuns) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus), 1), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)
- MY NEW FORMULA: InventedRuns = MIN(MAX((InputT1BPCRuns / T1BPCMaxRuns) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus, 1), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)
Basically I just took out the ROUND_DOWN function. Hope that helps. In your post here you forgot the second argument of the MAX function. But you still need rounding or you get non-integer runs. It needs to be a round up I think, that way you always get 1 run from your bpc and the decryptor modifier is always used. Round down was taking away a run from every invention job with less than max runs. Changing it to a round up means that you will indeed always get 1+modifier for final runs, and would also keep it capped at 1+modifier for max-run bpcs as well. I think I edited that wrong. I use a ceiling function instead of a max, which is a comparison. So I basically do a round up like you suggested. Here's my formula from code:
InventedRuns = Math.Min(Math.Ceiling((InputT1BPCRuns / T1BPCMaxRuns) * (MaxProductionLimit / 10) + InventionDecryptor.RunMod), MaxProductionLimit)
Ran some simple tests in excel and it behaves as it does in game. The old formula cuts off a run unless using max run copies. GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour! |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1596
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 05:14:00 -
[20] - Quote
Zifrian wrote: I think I edited that wrong. I use a ceiling function instead of a max, which is a comparison. So I basically do a round up like you suggested. Here's my formula from code:
yes that makes sense, the ceiling function would do both in this situation. I updated my invention spreadsheets and using other decryptors makes a lot more sense. How many manufacturing slots you have available becomes important when the difference between one decryptor and another is a 10-15x difference in total manufacturing slot load. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
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Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
1261
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 06:03:00 -
[21] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:I may be wrong, but I thought you still needed to use a max run BPC to get the decryptor run bonus with two notable exceptions: Ships and Rigs.
Not to get the decryptor bonus, but to get the max possible runs, you're right.
Without a decryptor, ships and rigs invent to 1 run T2 BPC no matter what the input BPC has for runs. For everything else, Without a decryptor, a 1-run T1 BPC gets a 1-run T2 BPC and a max-run T1 BPC gets a 10-run T2 BPC
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Bobbi Huffman
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 12:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
awesome help guys thanks very much.
On to complex reactions, i wonder if anyone could help out with pos setups etc.
Say i wanted to make complex reactions in a pos via buying the inputs at jita. Say i had bought 4 inputs.
I'd need 4 silo's 1 for each input a complex reaction array and an output silo correct? no coupling arrays etc are needed? This seems like the logical way and being eve, im sure its invariably more difficult with some strange niche system.
Pos are definately my weak point, any help greatly appreciated.
(Edit: from my understanding each input silo will feed 100m3 of simple reactants into the reactor array per hour, the magic will happen, 400m3 of complex reactants will output per hour) |
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
1261
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 12:44:00 -
[23] - Quote
Maybe start a new thread for that? With a title that will draw attention from those people who understand reactions and their setup? |
Bobbi Huffman
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 12:57:00 -
[24] - Quote
will do, just figured spamming a load of new threads would get annoying, cheers. |
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