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Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
467
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Posted - 2014.02.07 16:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
Gate guns haven't changed in forever. Tanking gate guns used to require serious effort e.g. RR battleships, a carrier, T2 logi cruisers, etc... It's now a trivial matter to tank gate guns with a few T1 logistic frigates.
Gate guns could do with an update, but not something simple like a flat damage increase. They should have a dynamic response to the crime being committed.
Some Parameters Level of crime - suspect offence, criminal offence Aggressor's ship size - small, medium, large, capital Aggressor's ship Tech level - Tech 1, Tech 2, Tech 3 Aggressor's faction standing - Excellent, Good, Neutral, Bad, Terrible Aggressor's security status - positive (including zero), negative, pirate (-5.0 and below) Number of crimes committed - 0, 1, ..., max. Potential Gun Escalations (in no particular order) current gate guns - perhaps lower the base response below current levels increased gate gun damage guns remember your crimes when you warp off and back again racial ewar batteries - ECM, sensor damps, tracking disruptors, target painters webbing batteries warp disrupt batteries warp scram batteries energy neutralising batteries local cyno jam? summon the faction navy, which warps around the system chasing you like fighter drones Pros Adds depth and complexity to piracy Makes lowsec slightly safer for newbros at stargates/stations Will hopefully encourage more newbros to venture into lowsec Doesn't change anything away from gates and stations Doesn't mess with Hisec or Nullsec Cons Makes piracy/crime harder (but not impossible!) It would be complicated I can't help but feel people are gonna say things like "post your lossmail", "gtfo carebear" and "piracy is a valid career". Let's speed things up and just assume all that is received and understood. Discuss! Fleet Bookmarks New Gravimetric Sites Med Clones 2.0 |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
16654
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 17:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
Why?
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Scuzzy Logic
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
134
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Posted - 2014.02.07 17:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
In my honest opinion, just giving the gate guns the sleeper AI so thet they'd focus-fire logi would solve the problem.
In truth, CCP won't fix it, just like they never fixed vamping off the neon sign to run triple repper dominixes. |
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
467
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 17:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
Because as it currently stands, you can either tank the guns or you can't and it's easy to predict which category your ship/gang/fleet falls into. Frankly, it's a little boring. Fleet Bookmarks New Gravimetric Sites Med Clones 2.0 |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2436
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Posted - 2014.02.07 17:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
Because he wants to warp through Rancer without getting shot of course. |
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
460
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Posted - 2014.02.07 17:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
What if we iterated gate guns out of the game? |
stoicfaux
4046
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Posted - 2014.02.07 18:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
What if we allowed people to invest/donate isk to upgrade or to buy additional sentries in a system? It might help with building "safer" trade routes through some parts of space. Because sandbox.
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
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Alundil
Sky Fighters
394
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Posted - 2014.02.07 19:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:What if we allowed people to invest/donate isk to upgrade or to buy additional sentries in a system? It might help with building "safer" trade routes through some parts of space. Because sandbox.
[disclaimer] I don't participate in piracy [/disclaimer]
The only way that this would even be remotely balanced is if shooting those player anchored guns (regardless of the seclevel of the system) causes zero aggression from existing empire/concord gate guns and generated killsmails against the anchoring pilot/corp/alliance. Otherwise this would simply result in the spamming of guns throughout most trade route systems and provide near impenetrable safety for pilots wishing to afk through those systems without support and/or in lol-bling ships/freighters.
Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
4856
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 20:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
The last time a DEV even suggested the possibility of gate guns ramping up firepower for "(reasons)" every single outlaw, pirate, and Faction Warfare member shrieked their opposition to this in unison... because almost everyone in low-sec fights on gates, security status is not a clear indicator of "good or bad" in low-sec, and it would prevent escalations of fights.
When general gate gun aggro was removed (see: you could warp from the gate that was shooting you (for whatever reason) to another gate without carrying that aggro and being shot) every outlaw, pirate, and Faction Warfare member collectively cheered... and more fighting resulted because no one had to sit in stations or at POSs for 15+ minutes to wait out their timers anymore. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
16656
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 09:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
Swiftstrike1 wrote:Because as it currently stands, you can either tank the guns or you can't and it's easy to predict which category your ship/gang/fleet falls into. Frankly, it's a little boring. So you think gathering your friends together to fight pirates and having guns aid you, is boring?
You would rather nerf someone else's play style, so you knew the outcome would be more in your favour?
Try reading ShahFluffers post again and try to understand why this is not needed. If you can get past your own boredom threshold that is.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
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Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
467
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Posted - 2014.02.08 13:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mag's wrote:So you think gathering your friends together to fight pirates and having guns aid you, is boring?
You would rather nerf someone else's play style, so you knew the outcome would be more in your favour?
Try reading ShahFluffers post again and try to understand why this is not needed. If you can get past your own boredom threshold that is. Wow, save some hostility for Oulley... oh wait, J0KER kicked you guys out of there... Never mind then, we can be hostile on the forums instead if you want.
I'm not trying to suggest anything that would nerf piracy. I like piracy, I just don't get to do it on gates very often due to miliitia fondness of frigs and dessy gangs.
When I say "sentry gun escalation" I don't mean guns + X + Y + Z. I mean something more along the lines of this: If sentry guns are unable to kill an offender, they change tactics or switch targets every 30 seconds. Perhaps 1 gun powers down so that 1 webifier can come online. If multiple pilots offend, warp out, then come back and re-offend, the gate might shut down a gun in favour of a warp scram If you are fighting on a caldari gate, you might get 1 gun powering down and 1 ECM battery powering up to jam offending RR if it's a Gallente gate, the guns might shut down in favour of a damp battery Unique gun AI like this would bring different flavours to fights in different regions [*] A fleet comp might be well suited fighting against guns in amarr space, but not in caldari space Fleet Bookmarks New Gravimetric Sites Med Clones 2.0 |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1386
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 13:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
Sure, all your escalation ideas are cool but let me counter gate guns by ECM, TD, SD, neuts, speed and resists.
You wanna make NPCs use all pvp means and mods just as players can and do? Let me counter them just as I would do when fighting another player. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
16660
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 14:05:00 -
[13] - Quote
Swiftstrike1 wrote:Mag's wrote:So you think gathering your friends together to fight pirates and having guns aid you, is boring?
You would rather nerf someone else's play style, so you knew the outcome would be more in your favour?
Try reading ShahFluffers post again and try to understand why this is not needed. If you can get past your own boredom threshold that is. Wow, save some hostility for Oulley... oh wait, J0KER kicked you guys out of there... Never mind then, we can be hostile on the forums instead if you want. I'm not trying to suggest anything that would nerf piracy. I like piracy, I just don't get to do it on gates very often due to miliitia fondness of frigs and dessy gangs. When I say "sentry gun escalation" I don't mean guns + X + Y + Z. I mean something more along the lines of this: If sentry guns are unable to kill an offender, they change tactics or switch targets every 30 seconds. Perhaps 1 gun powers down so that 1 webifier can come online. If multiple pilots offend, warp out, then come back and re-offend, the gate might shut down a gun in favour of a warp scram If you are fighting on a caldari gate, you might get 1 gun powering down and 1 ECM battery powering up to jam offending RR If it's a Gallente gate, the guns might shut down in favour of a damp battery Racial gun AI like this would bring different flavours to fights in different regions A fleet comp might be well suited fighting against guns in amarr space, but not in caldari space Would that not be more interesting than raw DPS? I have no clue as to who Joker is and don't ever recall being in a system called Oulley. But as we all know, ad hom retorts are a sure fire winner when arguing game mechanics. Amirite?
I think you should bring your own protection and punishment. You find that boring? Then that is your problem, not the gate guns. You are after breaking the one area that fights are certain to happen in low, because you're bored and wish for more assistance.
TL:DR. No thanks.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
649
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 18:20:00 -
[14] - Quote
because then pirates cant camp on a gate 24/7 like you and yours ;p _______________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg
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Mag's
the united SCUM.
16663
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Posted - 2014.02.08 18:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
Seranova Farreach wrote:because then pirates cant camp on a gate 24/7 like you and yours ;p No one camps 24/7 and even if they did, so what? So what was your point again?
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
4863
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 19:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Seranova Farreach wrote:because then pirates cant camp on a gate 24/7 like you and yours ;p No one camps 24/7 and even if they did, so what? They are few and far between and there are plenty of options currently available, to either clear or pass them. This. Gatecamps on high-sec to low-sec gates are most common when you take the "shortest route" into low-sec (or through it). If you take a "back-end" route you will find that there are few, if any, camps (at the cost of a longer trip).
Speaking as someone who lives in low-sec, sometimes camps those "shortest route" gates, and routinely hauls Orcas and Freighters worth of stuff into low-sec... the "24/7 gatecamps in low-sec" thing is honestly just a myth. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
362
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 21:51:00 -
[17] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:the "24/7 gatecamps in low-sec" thing is honestly just a myth.
It is now. Several years ago it was true. I remember moving with my corp out to Fountain, and there were roughly 12/23 hour camps in Udianoor (toward highsec) and Defsunun (toward Delve). Occasionally the alliance would get bored and go kick them off the gate.
So the myth is rooted in history, and has died only because lowsec is so empty. If people moved there, the pirates would follow. Then people will leave, and lowsec will be empty once again. A vicious circle that will only be broken with a major gameplay change. - Mission Overhaul - Bridging the PVP / PVE Gap - -áIf the game stops teaching people to fear lowsec, maybe people will start going there? |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
2302
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 21:55:00 -
[18] - Quote
What if gate guns "powered up" over time after activation?
Example:
1st hit: 100 damage 2nd hit: 150 damage 3rd hit: 250 damage 4th hit: 400 damage 5th hit: 650 damage etc etc until, after like five minutes they're hitting hard enough to scare scupercaps.
So gun tanking is still possible, but you couldn't do it forever. Nullsec in a Nutshell: http://nedroid.com/comics/2006-08-24-2155-arrrdino.gif |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
16664
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 00:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:What if gate guns "powered up" over time after activation?
Example:
1st hit: 100 damage 2nd hit: 150 damage 3rd hit: 250 damage 4th hit: 400 damage 5th hit: 650 damage etc etc until, after like five minutes they're hitting hard enough to scare scupercaps.
So gun tanking is still possible, but you couldn't do it forever. This was already suggested, roundly condemned and laughed at. So I have to ask again, why? Why do you think this is even required? What problem does it solve?
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
471
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 01:42:00 -
[20] - Quote
Wow you are really vocal in your opposition to this. I think everyone gets that you don't like it. You can stop repeating yourself now.
The problem that you are insinuating doesn't exist is this - gate guns haven't changed since their inception, but the ships we fly have. They've changed a lot. Generally speaking, they've become much more powerful.
You probably want specifics so here goes... Numerous rebalances of everything over the years, Tech 2 modules, gang warfare links, Tech 2 ships (especially tech 2 logistics ships and command ships), Tech 3 cruisers, new Tech 1 logistics, Ancillayr tanking modules, Bastion modules, Micro jump drives, new deployable structures, etc... I've probably missed some stuff.
Ships and fleets have become a lot harder to kill over the years and gate guns have not changed at all. As a result, they no longer adequately perform the job they were intended to do. That is the problem.
Now as a result of this problem another problem has evolved. Over the years, lowsec has become increasingly more like nullsec and less like hisec. Yes there are some limitations on modules we can use and structures we can anchor, but the "protection" offered by the NPC empires in lowsec has become increasingly negligible over the years. If that protection was to become slightly beefed up it would shunt lowsec back towards hisec a little bit, where it is supposed to be. It doesn't even need to be increased, just changed enough to encourage people to go and explore the changes by living in lowsec for a while. Fleet Bookmarks New Gravimetric Sites Med Clones 2.0 |
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Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1072
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 02:16:00 -
[21] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Swiftstrike1 wrote:Because as it currently stands, you can either tank the guns or you can't and it's easy to predict which category your ship/gang/fleet falls into. Frankly, it's a little boring. So you think gathering your friends together to fight pirates and having guns aid you, is boring?
Lets not pretend like you actually fight people who show up to your gatecamp. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
4869
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 02:26:00 -
[22] - Quote
Swiftstrike1 wrote:Now as a result of this problem another problem has evolved. Over the years, lowsec has become increasingly more like nullsec and less like hisec. And this is a problem... why?
Swiftstrike1 wrote:Yes there are some limitations on modules we can use and structures we can anchor, but the "protection" offered by the NPC empires in lowsec has become increasingly negligible over the years. I will echo what has been said before... NPCs in EVE do not protect anyone... they discourage certain behaviors** by issuing penalties.
**You say Frigates can tank gate guns? I invite you to try using one under gate gun fire. My experience has been that most frigates and destroyers will pop within 2 to 4 volleys of a gate gun (see: they live for less 20 seconds) unless they are heavily tanked (which cuts into their performance in other areas, usually speed) or have sufficient support (in which case, the target/victim coming through a gate is screwed regardless).
Swiftstrike1 wrote: It doesn't even need to be increased, just changed enough to encourage people to go and explore the changes by living in lowsec for a while. And here I (and many others) will again tell you that most of the problem with people not going to low-sec is perception and tactical stupidity.
You don't enter low-sec through the closest gate to a trade-hub (those are where gatecamps are most common and there are always other routes and ways around "chokepoints")... you certainly don't do so in a large, slow ship (faster, more agile ships have better odds of survival)... and you should never expect the NPCs protect or cover you in any way shape or form. It's your task, like everyone else, to play smart and cover your own ass. If many of us low-sec dwellers and Faction Warfare people can survive and thrive down there... so can everyone else.
Also... if the history of EVE has shown anything it's that...
- slightly increasing penalties (in this way) does not discourage combat... but it does encourage ganking and stupidly overwhelming fleet compositions (as they are smarter tactics to use in the face of the things your are proposing) in addition to making it harder for the people who enjoy open conflict to wage it against one another.
- unless "safety" is heavily increased (we're talking to CONCORD "insta-pop" levels) it will still not be enough to encourage people to visit low-sec because it is still possible to be blown up with impunity. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
16666
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 07:45:00 -
[23] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Mag's wrote:Swiftstrike1 wrote:Because as it currently stands, you can either tank the guns or you can't and it's easy to predict which category your ship/gang/fleet falls into. Frankly, it's a little boring. So you think gathering your friends together to fight pirates and having guns aid you, is boring? Lets not pretend like you actually fight people who show up to your gatecamp. I have many times. But most often a gate camp fit ship, is not suitable for group fighting. So it's either not fight or change. Then there are those quite often occasions, when we are baited and hot dropped. It doesn't always work, but it's fun all the same.
I'm not saying we wouldn't try to evade larger groups, we are after all trying to make ISK. Just as you would run if blobbed, so please don't go there.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
16666
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 08:09:00 -
[24] - Quote
Swiftstrike1 wrote:Wow you are really vocal in your opposition to this. I think everyone gets that you don't like it. You can stop repeating yourself now.
The problem that you are insinuating doesn't exist is this - gate guns haven't changed since their inception, but the ships we fly have. They've changed a lot. Generally speaking, they've become much more powerful.
You probably want specifics so here goes... Numerous rebalances of everything over the years, Tech 2 modules, gang warfare links, Tech 2 ships (especially tech 2 logistics ships and command ships), Tech 3 cruisers, new Tech 1 logistics, Ancillayr tanking modules, Bastion modules, Micro jump drives, new deployable structures, etc... I've probably missed some stuff.
Ships and fleets have become a lot harder to kill over the years and gate guns have not changed at all. As a result, they no longer adequately perform the job they were intended to do. That is the problem.
Now as a result of this problem another problem has evolved. Over the years, lowsec has become increasingly more like nullsec and less like hisec. Yes there are some limitations on modules we can use and structures we can anchor, but the "protection" offered by the NPC empires in lowsec has become increasingly negligible over the years. If that protection was to become slightly beefed up it would shunt lowsec back towards hisec a little bit, where it is supposed to be. It doesn't even need to be increased, just changed enough to encourage people to go and explore the changes by living in lowsec for a while. A few things you have wrong.l
Gate guns now stop shooting you, if you warp out and back in and they do not now shoot drones. I think you'll find that's a decrease on power, not an increase.
NPCs do not protect, they punish. They do not care about your ship and whether of not it blows up, no matter what security you are in. All they are concerned with, is certain crimewatch rules and if they are broken.
Low sec wasn't ever like high sec and has always tended to be the wild west area of Eve. If you want a more gradual run to low, then look at breaking .6 and .5 systems. You could always suggest removing concord from those and introducing your guns.
Low sec is already open for exploration and living. There is really nothing but a lack of understanding, that stands between pilots and low sec. As ShahFluffers said, it's a perception problem.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
474
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 19:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
So I think we might actually be making some progress here...
Omniscient gate guns I completely agree this was an excellent and much needed change. It made no sense for all the guns in New Eden to shoot at you for some offence you committed 10 minutes and 15 jumps ago. My suggestion with regards to gate gun memory in the OP was not meant as a reversal of this. What I meant was that in an extended engagement on a gate, one possible change to gun behaviour would be to allow them (only the guns on that particular gate) to remember who they had been shooting at even if they warp out and in again. I was in no way suggesting that the guns in OMS should be instructed to shoot you on sight for a crime committed in Rancer.
Punishment vs Protection Once again you're absolutely right... mostly. When a fight lasts longer than 30-60 seconds, punishing the offender and protecting the defender overlap since the guns are basically fighting in support of the defender. There's no remote assistance from the gate guns ofc, but putting DPS on the other guy still counts as support in a fight that lasts longer than 3 volleys.
Perception Barrier We also agree on this point. "oh dear god, not lowsec!" is an all too common attitude that prevents people from leaving hisec. What better way to shine a light on the reality of the situation than a rebalance of lowsec C&P, Risk vs Reward, etc... starting with gate guns? Fleet Bookmarks New Gravimetric Sites Med Clones 2.0 |
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
474
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 20:34:00 -
[26] - Quote
Milton Middleson wrote:What if we iterated gate guns out of the game? I missed this the first time around. It's an idea worth considering.
Pros increase fights on stations and gates enables small ships with flimsy tanks to aggress without RR support reduces server load (slightly) making big fights (slightly) smoother makes solo piracy easier than it currently is newer players will not incorrectly expect guns to protect them if there are no guns 50/50 could lead to greater fear of lowsec, or people being better prepared when they do go there Cons makes lowsec logistics harder consequently, less well established groups will not survive in lowsec increases risk of lowsec without increasing reward I genuinely didn't expect to come up with more pros than cons, but there ya go... Fleet Bookmarks New Gravimetric Sites Med Clones 2.0 |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
260
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 21:05:00 -
[27] - Quote
What if a group owns over 50% of the Poco's in a Lowsec system then Gate and Station guns no longer shoot that group of people.
Or what if they got rid of gate and station guns all together. That would be neat too. |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
539
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 23:33:00 -
[28] - Quote
Gate gun damage should just ramp up slowly over time, at an exponential rate.
That way I can justify bringing an interceptor How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
KiithSoban
Big Johnson's PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
29
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Posted - 2014.02.10 00:08:00 -
[29] - Quote
No.
I actively FC roams in lowsec (check eve-kill). Changing gate gun mechanics in any way that is a "buff" would decrease pvp activity in lowsec. 90% of fights in lowsec still happen at gates. T1 logi have greatly increased lowsec pvp because they let you agress under gate guns more often (hence y I always bring at least two augs with me). I still despise the days when two BCs from one side, and one BC from another would stare at each other because whoever attacks first loses.
Should gate guns be iterated to allow frigates to survive for a bit? Probably not since this would make it all but impossible to travel in low with some relative safety. I want to see logi appear on killmails! (by just repping)-á See CSM "reasonable things" |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1073
|
Posted - 2014.02.10 01:31:00 -
[30] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Mag's wrote:Swiftstrike1 wrote:Because as it currently stands, you can either tank the guns or you can't and it's easy to predict which category your ship/gang/fleet falls into. Frankly, it's a little boring. So you think gathering your friends together to fight pirates and having guns aid you, is boring? Lets not pretend like you actually fight people who show up to your gatecamp. I have many times. But most often a gate camp fit ship, is not suitable for group fighting. So it's either not fight or change. Then there are those quite often occasions, when we are baited and hot dropped. It doesn't always work, but it's fun all the same. I'm not saying we wouldn't try to evade larger groups, we are after all trying to make ISK. We look at the most productive way of achieving that goal and I do not care if that entails leaving, in the face of an on coming blob. But if we have run, then you succeeded. But thanks for yet more Ad hom attempts.
Your suggestion was that they should fight your gatecamp. You just told us that you dont fight except when you get bridged on. |
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