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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Jack'O Blades
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Posted - 2006.04.06 04:21:00 -
[1]
Eve players with basic knowledge of economics make me SICK!!!
YES Eve market is player driven... YES Demand > Supply... resulting in an exorbitant increase in HAC price YES I agree if you can not afford it, do not buy it YES The system is working GREAT!!! It reflects real life... and thatĘs how it's suppose to be... (lucky BPO owners should make money)
HOWEVER, in real life if such thing happens, HAC industry becomes very profitable and we have entrepreneurs. This results in COMPETITION...
So now... why do people use RL reasons to HAC price (effect) when RL competition (counter-effect) DOES NOT apply in Eve...
Please explain the bias...
I am not suggesting HAC should be widely available... but the wannabe Economics genius should shut up AND the wannabe HAC owner should stop whining (boycott the bloody HAC sharks... but then I am sure if you were a HAC BPO owner you would be a shark too).
I would like to take this opportunity to promote NAGA corp... they are doing a great job: making money with ethics.
www.nagamazon.com
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jamesw
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Posted - 2006.04.06 04:25:00 -
[2]
There are no "made in Taiwan" HAC's to drive prices back down. --
NEW Vid: Appetite for Destruction |
Kaladr
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Posted - 2006.04.06 04:27:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Kaladr on 06/04/2006 04:27:52 The problem is Demand > Supply. The BPOs are NOT freely available, and there is much more demand than supply at this moment. Supply is not increasing. ---- EVE-Central.com | Obsidian Technologies - Manufacturing, Defense and Logistics. We're hiring! Mail me |
jamesw
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Posted - 2006.04.06 04:31:00 -
[4]
Here is a similar RL situation (and I am no economist):
Concert tickets, lets say U2.
There are 100,000 tickets available at $100 per ticket. The tickets sell out in 1 hour, and appear on eBay for $1000 and upwards.
Demand > Supply. It happens in RL too. The original ticket vendor could quite easily sell out the concert at $500 a ticket (except there would be massive public outcry).
Simply, if HAC owners would sell hacs for $70 mil or less, the free market would simply buy and resell for market price ($200m). The only way to combat this is to increase supply. --
NEW Vid: Appetite for Destruction |
Eternal Fury
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Posted - 2006.04.06 04:32:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Eternal Fury on 06/04/2006 04:33:58 You have one item.
Lots of people want it.
Are you going to sell it for the cost + time + say 10% or are you going to auction it off.
So we auction it off.
200 Mill 300 Mill 400 Mill . . . . . 1.5 billion
SLAM SOLD to the Amarr in the robes.. no the other one.. nope, the other one.. the one beating his Minnie slave.. no the other.. (gives up and walks over to the auction winner) please quit beating your slave long enought to sign here please.
Ok. So next day you have another made. So you go to the last 5 people who wanted one, and ask them if they still want one. they damn near kill themselves saying yes.
So you start the bidding at 500Mill seeing as the last one sold so well..
It sells for 1.46 Billion..
Next day, repeat.. 1.4 billion.
Next day, Repeat.. 1.6 billion..(damn rich people.. I can't even afford a BS..shesh)
next day, Repeat... 1.36 billion(it's monday, some peopel have jobs, unlike me)
and so on..
If people are willing to pay for it, they will. And the price will stay high.
if noone and I mean NOONE bought ANY hac's for a week, till they were brought back down into a price point that is more reasonable, THEN you would have good prices... but then the prices would slowly creap back up...
demand is greater then supply = high price.
supply is greater then demand = low price.
actually, theres a new quote for the sig..
- -
Please don't attack me. My ship is defragging it's hard drive. H.L. Mencken.
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Mia Archer
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Posted - 2006.04.06 04:37:00 -
[6]
Having a tech 2 BPO in eve is like having a patent in real life. Think of it as the equivatlent to intelectual property, combined with limited production resources of the patent holders and you have a real life equivalent
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Kaladr
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Posted - 2006.04.06 04:39:00 -
[7]
^^ Good analogy. I was looking for one but my brain is not working atm. ---- EVE-Central.com | Obsidian Technologies - Manufacturing, Defense and Logistics. We're hiring! Mail me |
Kurgen Varr
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Posted - 2006.04.06 04:48:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Jack'O Blades HOWEVER, in real life if such thing happens, HAC industry becomes very profitable and we have entrepreneurs. This results in COMPETITION...
So now... why do people use RL reasons to HAC price (effect) when RL competition (counter-effect) DOES NOT apply in Eve...
Please explain the bias...
How does the competitior make thier own product? If i want to start a company that is a competitor to ferarri I don't just rock up and ask for a BPO for the enzo do I? I have to work it out for myself.
And wait, what's this i read in the development notes?
Originally by: the dev team Next-Gen Research & Development
Next step in Research & Development, utilizing Reverse Engineering and changes to Research Agents. Reverse engineering enables players with the right tools, skills, items and knowledge to get inefficient limited run blueprint-copies.
that looks like your answer right there.
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Jack'O Blades
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Posted - 2006.04.06 05:33:00 -
[9]
Analogy: Microsoft Windows
Patent own by Microsoft Corporation
The demand is ever increasing and Microsoft has a monopoly (almost!!!) on the PC operating system.
So why dont they increase the price of their product... let's say ten folds?
And btw I dont need an answer (examples given in some reply seems to suggest Im a morron). Nontheless, there will be an outrage!!!
Now back to Eve, HAC price is an outrage... can we do something about it??? Not much... hence the system is BROKEN.
Anyways, the reason for this post is because I got irritated with the annoying wanabe HAC owners whinage... and the the wanabe Economic genius with their all-and-nothing supply and demand excuse.
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Snake Jankins
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Posted - 2006.04.06 05:35:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Snake Jankins on 06/04/2006 05:42:50 Ok, from a wanna-be economics, since we have this topic at least once a week:
- the HAC supply is constant or has even dropped, since a few BPOs are not in production - player numbers are rising, there are also more advanced players, who reach a level where they want a hac - probably there are a lot more rich people, e.g people with over 1 billion isk. - some hacs got boosted, so people want them now - everyone talks about hac-prices. That's an advertisement, because everyone thinks he needs one too to be 1337 now - some alliances buy these BPOs for internal use, so less for the open market
Why do the producers not just put them cheaper on the market ? Because then someone buys them all at once to resell them for a higher price. Can we do something about it ? If there are 100 hacs for sale and 1000 people want one, then 900 people don't get one no matter how much they complain. This is plain logic.
When will the have prices fall ? Probably not before Kali and the new R&D system, then maybe. Cu all next week in the next hac thread. ___________ 'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.' |
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Kurgen Varr
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Posted - 2006.04.06 05:37:00 -
[11]
they will increase the price to the point that people won't pay it. The same as the way the HAC prices will keep going up untill people stop paying them. Seems pretty simple to me
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Coconut Joe
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Posted - 2006.04.06 05:38:00 -
[12]
The devs themselfs have called the system a 'patent lottery'. And a patent is pretty much a government sanctioned monopoly for a period of time.
Linkage
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Tiel Nova
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Posted - 2006.04.06 05:41:00 -
[13]
I was planning on avoiding the HAC prices debates as I'm not very experienced in EVE, but this is how I understand it:
EVE is psuedo-free. Not really free. Because CCP controls pricing in every way. The Supply and Demand model is very predictable, so HAC prices will remain high so long as CCP wants them to.
I'm not much for conspiracy theories, as most of them are paranoid fantasies, but in this case, its true. If CCP wants to bring down prices, they would allow more HACs to hit the market. In a free market economy, 'entreprenuers' have the ability to produce the demanded product. However, in EVE, not just anyone can figure out a way to make a ship. You have to get the blueprint first. Which is how CCP controls pricing.
Anyway, feel free to correct my logic - I'm not yet a month into EVE. :P
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R3aliti
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Posted - 2006.04.06 05:46:00 -
[14]
Enough with the HAC WHINE - PLEASE - try something original - I want cheaper Civilian Shield Boosters - Now repost this in 40 threads and have deep philosophic discussions about the ramifications of this phenomenon and its impact on the price of fleas at the border to snoopletarits.
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Steven Dynahir
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Posted - 2006.04.06 05:51:00 -
[15]
Quote: Wannabe Economics genius please explain HAC price...
1. 8 BPOS (per type) 2. ~16 new ships day (per type) 3. 200,000 players
--- Sell orders
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Santiago Cortes
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Posted - 2006.04.06 06:03:00 -
[16]
It's 20 bpos per ship type.
forum rules | mailto:[email protected]
Property Of Ductoris, if found please return to CCP Games Grandagar=ur 8, 101 Reykjavik, Iceland It's a sad state of affairs when you have to vandalise your own sig - Cortes Maximum dimensions for a signature are 400 width by 120 height, for a total size of 24000 kbs or under |
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SunTzuRaven
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Posted - 2006.04.06 06:06:00 -
[17]
The system should be more like tylenol or aspirin. Other companies can sell the same drug under a different name for 1/2 or 1/3 of the cost. This doesn't happen in eve, no one else can suddenly make a research breakthrough and understand how they are built, and start building them. God commands you to do the kirby dance!!! <("<) <('')> (>")> Pink is teh bestest! |
Steven Dynahir
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Posted - 2006.04.06 06:51:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Santiago Cortes It's 20 bpos per ship type.
I remember seeing that the old BPO's were only 8 or so per type, and the new ones have been increased. But did the change happen before or after HACs, and if before, did CCP seed the HAC BPOs to match these new values?
--- Sell orders
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.04.06 07:10:00 -
[19]
Too much whining and crying. Every time somebody makes this thread, Khatred and friends increase the prices of HACs.
Dont whine. Whining IMHO does not help. It makes manufacturers and traders happy because they can increase the price further. Because of yesterday's whine, some T2 items have gone up by 20%. Please dont whine.
----------------
RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Tradingjoe
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Posted - 2006.04.06 07:12:00 -
[20]
If people are willing to pay such prices, perhaps they are just overpowered in the first place
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John Mathias
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Posted - 2006.04.06 07:13:00 -
[21]
Originally by: jamesw Here is a similar RL situation (and I am no economist):
Concert tickets, lets say U2.
There are 100,000 tickets available at $100 per ticket. The tickets sell out in 1 hour, and appear on eBay for $1000 and upwards.
Demand > Supply. It happens in RL too. The original ticket vendor could quite easily sell out the concert at $500 a ticket (except there would be massive public outcry).
Simply, if HAC owners would sell hacs for $70 mil or less, the free market would simply buy and resell for market price ($200m). The only way to combat this is to increase supply.
Yes, but IRL there is no shortage of musicians. Your example is more like a single corp than the whole of tq. The hac situation is more if there were only 10 bands in the world making music. All of them would always sell out and tickets would only be for the super rich the way it is with hacs in eve. If there was some alternative to U2 people would pay $100 to see another band that wasn't sold out instead of paying $1000 dollars on ebay unless they were super rich. The problem with hacs being compared to RL is that unlike in eve nobody has an instant magic monopoly with no way for anyone else to start competing with them. This would never happen IRL because if dodge had an ubertruck that sold for $500k then chevy would want a piece of that and start making them too. The competition would drive prices down because there is no mechanic in place to prevent more bpo's from being created and bpc's work forever. You guy's are comparing a video game where we're all immortal and fly around in space in goobubbles shooting laser beams at people to real life.....
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Dangerously Cheesey
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Posted - 2006.04.06 07:22:00 -
[22]
One flaw that seems to be overlooked is the fact that its easier to simply use your BPO to make a HAC instead of using your BPO to make BPC. My guess is that CCP thought that people with the BPOs would be mostly selling BPCS - unfortunately, theres no real incentive for a BPO holder to use his time making BPCs instead of the actual HAC. Possible solution would be to reduce the amount of time needed to make BPC. Even if the X people with BPOs are cranking out HACs 23/7, they are still unable to meet demand and may actually be losing money.
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.04.06 07:23:00 -
[23]
Originally by: John Mathias Yes, but IRL there is no shortage of musicians. Your example is more like a single corp than the whole of tq. The hac situation is more if there were only 10 bands in the world making music. All of them would always sell out and tickets would only be for the super rich the way it is with hacs in eve. If there was some alternative to U2 people would pay $100 to see another band that wasn't sold out instead of paying $1000 dollars on ebay unless they were super rich. The problem with hacs being compared to RL is that unlike in eve nobody has an instant magic monopoly with no way for anyone else to start competing with them. This would never happen IRL because if dodge had an ubertruck that sold for $500k then chevy would want a piece of that and start making them too. The competition would drive prices down because there is no mechanic in place to prevent more bpo's from being created and bpc's work forever. You guy's are comparing a video game where we're all immortal and fly around in space in goobubbles shooting laser beams at people to real life.....
Can everyone in RL own a Ferarri? ----------------
RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Deacan Wildfire
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Posted - 2006.04.06 08:11:00 -
[24]
There is a counter effect. It's just that the barriers to entry are massive. Just like when it's hard to get started in an industry in real life, monopolies occur. The only difference is there isn't any kind of price regulating entity around to intervene.
plaguing MMORPGs since 1997 |
Zaratol
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Posted - 2006.04.06 08:23:00 -
[25]
This is still a game folks! For cryin out loud... ISK is not real money.
Lower the prices, sit back and see how gameplay experience increases.
Anyhow, my theory is that CCP is controlling the prices not the players, they do this to stimulate the players...
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.04.06 08:28:00 -
[26]
Its simple.
People can charge a lot for HACs, cos there's more demand than supply, and they're 'sexy' ships. So they do, they make a killing, and we pay for it.
Until people stop paying the prices - which won't happen - the prices will stay the same or go up.
Although it's starting to get depressing how hard it is to find a Vagabond. The price is meh, the availability is what annoys me.
Testy's Eve Blog!
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.04.06 08:34:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Jack'O Blades Analogy: Microsoft Windows
Patent own by Microsoft Corporation
The demand is ever increasing and Microsoft has a monopoly (almost!!!) on the PC operating system.
So why dont they increase the price of their product... let's say ten folds?
That's not comparable.
Microsoft can sell any number of copies of Windows they want.
But a HAC producer can only build one every 36 hours.
[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior
What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
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Zaratol
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Posted - 2006.04.06 08:36:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Jack'O Blades Analogy: Microsoft Windows
Patent own by Microsoft Corporation
The demand is ever increasing and Microsoft has a monopoly (almost!!!) on the PC operating system.
So why dont they increase the price of their product... let's say ten folds?
That's not comparable.
Microsoft can sell any number of copies of Windows they want.
But a HAC producer can only build one every 36 hours.
Do you honestly call that a argument? Get a grip!
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Karunel
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Posted - 2006.04.06 08:39:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Karunel on 06/04/2006 08:41:02 Edited by: Karunel on 06/04/2006 08:39:47 The simple fact is that... Well, before that, the verybasicsimple fact is that T2 lottery sucks, as CCP as realized. Now, the simple fact is there're 2x the number of players there were when T2 was released (more like 3x probably), so there's no reason that I can think of for not releasing more BPOs. Yes, I know some modules are not that expensive over what they cost to make, but I don't see either why someone who just gets an alt to make some research should get a money print. Profit's good, money print's bad.
There's some people who say that if more T2 BPO's were released it would solve nothing because producers would buy them and keep them at the same prices. The point is that if supply exceeded demand, there would be un-sold units in the market and prices would eventually fall. Why would producers "cut" production by a 50% ("one of their BPOs") if they could be selling 100% for, let's say, 80% of what they were selling before (If I recall HAC's margins correctly, that's still plenty of profit). To me, the need for more T2 BPO's for at least some items is so FACT'ish I simply can see how people can deny it. That said, people complaining about prices annoy me too, if you can't afford it don't buy it and that's it. I just think CCP should take a look at it and try to fix a bit something that was broken from the start (T2 market), and let's just hope they've learnt their stuff for T3.
And TBH I can't understand why do people insist so much on trying to look smart by applying RL economic models here, it's always seemed quite dumb to me. (I've studied economics so I know a bit about it)
Anyway, vanilla T1 FTW.
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Usul Faust
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Posted - 2006.04.06 08:40:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Usul Faust on 06/04/2006 08:42:44
Quote: Eve players with basic knowledge of economics make me SICK!!!
looks like somebody's doing GCSE business studies.
Anyway, the demand outstrips supply to such an extent t2 producers can afford to charge whatever the market will withstand. Even churning out as many HACs as they can, the supply still won't match the demand with the present number of t2 BPOs for each HAC.
There is no reason to reduce prices, the t2 market is a total oligopoly.
Naga do a fine job, i buy loads of ships off them. But if you order a Zealot today you might just see it before July. Most people are prepared to pay extra to have the ship right now.
no skills, just luck.
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