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Infinity Ziona
Drags are Bud
1623
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Posted - 2014.02.09 07:51:00 -
[31] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:No it rewards risk and skill. The skill to use the advantage you have from risking so many skill points. GǪexcept that the behaviour it will promote is waiting and blobbing GÇö always ensuring you have the max bonus; always ensuring that you win. In other words, almost the exact opposite of what you're going for. The current system of declining returns for exponential increases in training time offers an interesting choice: is that last percent really worth it or are you better off getting five different bonuses for the same input? Your suggestion replaces that choice with a dominant strategy where more is strictly better as long as you keep it, so obviously people will go for it and then do everything to ensure they don't lose it. No that's nonsense imo. You would find people would not use such bonuses in PvP, even in large fleets. Especially in large fleets. Losing 30 days of training, 60 days or more in caps because you jumped in and froze, or you got primaried or whatever would ensure that people would not use it. Want to make billions a week solo running combat sites in null sec? -á Read my Exploratation Guide here -> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=309467 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19278
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 08:01:00 -
[32] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:No that's nonsense imo. You would find people would not use such bonuses in PvP, even in large fleets. Especially in large fleets. They would when and if they know they'll win. The way to ensure a win is to completely outblob the opponent.
It thus creates a self-reinforcing cycle: the more you blob, the more reason there is to use it since it doubles the size of your blob; the more you use it, the more reason there is to always blob since it reduces the risk of ever losing anything.
You're confusing the term GÇ£blobGÇ¥ with GÇ£fleet on fleet combatGÇ¥. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Infinity Ziona
Drags are Bud
1624
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 08:03:00 -
[33] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:No it rewards risk and skill. The skill to use the advantage you have from risking so many skill points. GǪexcept that the behaviour it will promote is waiting and blobbing GÇö always ensuring you have the max bonus; always ensuring that you win. In other words, almost the exact opposite of what you're going for. The current system of declining returns for exponential increases in training time offers an interesting choice: is that last percent really worth it or are you better off getting five different bonuses for the same input? Your suggestion replaces that choice with a dominant strategy where more is strictly better as long as you keep it, so obviously people will go for it and then do everything to ensure they don't lose it. As such, it doesn't particularly reward either skill or risk, but rather safety behaviour and turtling. The former could conceivably be fine:ish, if it teaches people to not be victims, but there are better ways of doing that than also teaching them the most boring form of gameplay. Nonsense. As usual.
The last %'s reward on ships is usually a T3 or T3 ship upgrade. The possibility that you would lose 30 days on BS, and absurdly large amounts on caps would ensure that it would never become a dominant strategy. A 100% bonus on ships that takes 1 to a few months to recover from vs bringing another guy in a ship would mean people such as yourself would always opt for the extra ship. Want to make billions a week solo running combat sites in null sec? -á Read my Exploratation Guide here -> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=309467 |
Jhanax
BLKRaptors
1
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 08:05:00 -
[34] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:No that's nonsense imo. You would find people would not use such bonuses in PvP, even in large fleets. Especially in large fleets. They would when and if they know they'll win. The way to ensure a win is to completely outblob the opponent. It thus creates a self-reinforcing cycle: the more you blob, the more reason there is to use it since it doubles the size of your blob; the more you use it, the more reason there is to always blob since it reduces the risk of ever losing anything. You're confusing the term GÇ£blobGÇ¥ with GÇ£fleet on fleet combatGÇ¥.
If eve was completely like what you seam to be promoting, NO ONE would ever win any battle ! Is that enough balance for you ? |
Infinity Ziona
Drags are Bud
1624
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 08:06:00 -
[35] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:No that's nonsense imo. You would find people would not use such bonuses in PvP, even in large fleets. Especially in large fleets. They would when and if they know they'll win. The way to ensure a win is to completely outblob the opponent. It thus creates a self-reinforcing cycle: the more you blob, the more reason there is to use it since it doubles the size of your blob; the more you use it, the more reason there is to always blob since it reduces the risk of ever losing anything. You're confusing the term GÇ£blobGÇ¥ with GÇ£fleet on fleet combatGÇ¥. I would find it hard to believe that blobbers would choose to risk so much that they cannot recover back by dweebery (plex, SRP, renting space) Want to make billions a week solo running combat sites in null sec? -á Read my Exploratation Guide here -> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=309467 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19278
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 08:08:00 -
[36] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Nonsense. As usual. No argument and an abject failure to read, as usual.
Quote:The possibility that you would lose 30 days on BS, and absurdly large amounts on caps would ensure that it would never become a dominant strategy. The possibility to double your bonuses means training to V becomes a dominant strategy rather than an interesting cost-benefit choice that puts another nail in the GÇ£can't catch upGÇ¥ coffin.
Quote:I would find it hard to believe that blobbers would choose to risk so much that they cannot recover back by dweebery (plex, SRP, renting space) That's just it: they wouldn't risk anything exactly because they're blobbing. A group of 40 people being effectively turned into a group of 80 going after opponents in the (low) single digits makes it a non-issue and should someone be so horrible that he actually does lose a ship, all that happens is that he switches to a different V-skilled ship for a month and keep dweeing it up. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Infinity Ziona
Drags are Bud
1624
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 08:11:00 -
[37] - Quote
Anyway I wasn't suggesting it as a real change, just as an example of why people would be against it and find lots of silly excuses why it would be overpowered, unfair etc etc... and well, I think it didn't take long for that silliness to turn up. Want to make billions a week solo running combat sites in null sec? -á Read my Exploratation Guide here -> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=309467 |
Infinity Ziona
Drags are Bud
1624
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 08:13:00 -
[38] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Nonsense. As usual. No argument and an abject failure to read, as usual. Quote:The possibility that you would lose 30 days on BS, and absurdly large amounts on caps would ensure that it would never become a dominant strategy. The possibility to double your bonuses means training to V becomes a dominant strategy rather than an interesting cost-benefit choice that puts another nail in the GÇ£can't catch upGÇ¥ coffin. Not really, the bonuses are no where near worthwhile when in a consolidated fleet. In fleets individual ship bonuses don't really matter. Perhaps with the exception of caps but training up and then losing Titan V over and over would be extremely unpleasant and I doubt any Titan pilots would consider doing it. Want to make billions a week solo running combat sites in null sec? -á Read my Exploratation Guide here -> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=309467 |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
4098
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 08:14:00 -
[39] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:No it rewards risk and skill. The skill to use the advantage you have from risking so many skill points. GǪexcept that the behaviour it will promote is waiting and blobbing GÇö always ensuring you have the max bonus; always ensuring that you win. In other words, almost the exact opposite of what you're going for. The current system of declining returns for exponential increases in training time offers an interesting choice: is that last percent really worth it or are you better off getting five different bonuses for the same input? Your suggestion replaces that choice with a dominant strategy where more is strictly better as long as you keep it, so obviously people will go for it and then do everything to ensure they don't lose it. As such, it doesn't particularly reward either skill or risk, but rather safety behaviour and turtling. The former could conceivably be fine:ish, if it teaches people to not be victims, but there are better ways of doing that than also teaching them the most boring form of gameplay. Nonsense. As usual. The last %'s reward on ships is usually a T2 or T3 ship upgrade. The possibility that you would lose 30 days on BS, and absurdly large amounts on caps would ensure that it would never become a dominant strategy. A 100% bonus on ships that takes 1 to a few months to recover from vs bringing another guy in a ship would mean people such as yourself would always opt for the extra ship.
In Chess, the winning strategy is often to sacrifice your OP piece early for a later advantage. That will never happen in EVE because people will cry if the possibility of sacrificing an OP ship for a loss of SP is on the table. PVP is one of the most risk averse activities in this game.
Not a perfect analogy. But the best I can come up with this time of night.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
Infinity Ziona
Drags are Bud
1624
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 08:18:00 -
[40] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Nonsense. As usual. No argument and an abject failure to read, as usual. Quote:The possibility that you would lose 30 days on BS, and absurdly large amounts on caps would ensure that it would never become a dominant strategy. The possibility to double your bonuses means training to V becomes a dominant strategy rather than an interesting cost-benefit choice that puts another nail in the GÇ£can't catch upGÇ¥ coffin. Quote:I would find it hard to believe that blobbers would choose to risk so much that they cannot recover back by dweebery (plex, SRP, renting space) That's just it: they wouldn't risk anything exactly because they're blobbing. A group of 40 people being effectively turned into a group of 80 going after opponents in the (low) single digits makes it a non-issue and should someone be so horrible that he actually does lose a ship, all that happens is that he switches to a different V-skilled ship for a month and keep dweeing it up. Yeah um, double bonuses does not turn 1 ship into 2 ships. It turns a Vindi into 1 ship with an extra 37.5% damage on the original, with 20% bonus to web velocity (10% extra per level) and 7% bonus to tracking per level extra.
Last I checked the Vindi had a lot of other stats including EHP, PG, CPU.... think you need to learn some EvE mechanics... Want to make billions a week solo running combat sites in null sec? -á Read my Exploratation Guide here -> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=309467 |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19278
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 08:25:00 -
[41] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Not really, the bonuses are no where near worthwhile when in a consolidated fleet. In fleets individual ship bonuses don't really matter. They matter when you in many cases effectively double the amount of ships on your side, or double the survivability of those ships, or double the disruptiveness of them.
Anyway, the main problem is that you're tying it to a skill GÇö i.e. you're making skill grinding distinction (such as they exist in EVE) GÇö and that you're tying it specifically to the max level, which goes completely against the anti-munchkin design of the skill system. You could tie it to almost anything else and it wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem: it's just another siege mode at that point. At most it would become a GÇ£must haveGÇ¥ module/ship/implant/whatever for certain situations, but we have plenty of those already without them causing any problems, and they could be balanced separately as long as they weren't as closely tied to some other mechanic as what you're describing.
Jhanax wrote:If eve was completely like what you seam to be promoting, NO ONE would ever win any battle ! Sure they would, since what I'm promoting is how EVE is right now and people win battles all the time. Because that's just it: right now, you don't need to train stuff to V to win anything GÇö only to gain a very slight (and easily nullified) advantage. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
AnotherUseless Alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 08:26:00 -
[42] - Quote
Jhanax wrote:Am curious to know if there are any plans for tech III battleships to be introduced in future expansions ? If so, has anyone got ideas for the subsystem specs ?
it's taken them 10 years to start balancing ships, and you want to add more? "Self help is all in your head" |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
2732
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 08:35:00 -
[43] - Quote
Jhanax wrote:I don't like this idea of trying to balance everything out. In real life there is no such thing. I find it irritating in games. whats wrong with an overpowered ship ? everyone assumes that everyone will get one, but it rarely happens that way. we should have the ability to be overpowered or not depending on the situation. Maybe Dev's can implement skills that take an extra long time to develop for the ability to be "overpowered" in certain areas ? It might make less players inclined to go for them, thus reducing the everyone flying the same ship scenario. Because some people like variety. Oh god. |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
16669
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 08:43:00 -
[44] - Quote
Jhanax wrote:I don't like this idea of trying to balance everything out. In real life there is no such thing. I find it irritating in games. whats wrong with an overpowered ship ? everyone assumes that everyone will get one, but it rarely happens that way. we should have the ability to be overpowered or not depending on the situation. Maybe Dev's can implement skills that take an extra long time to develop for the ability to be "overpowered" in certain areas ? It might make less players inclined to go for them, thus reducing the everyone flying the same ship scenario. But RL has many boundaries to certain better items. There are only so many penthouse suits, 100 acre mansions etc, not to mention all the other things that stand in peoples way.
In Eve the only thing standing in your way is a little time and effort. If you introduce an OP ship, it's not a case of if most will use it, but when. Hence the need for balance.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Infinity Ziona
Drags are Bud
1624
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 08:48:00 -
[45] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Not really, the bonuses are no where near worthwhile when in a consolidated fleet. In fleets individual ship bonuses don't really matter. They matter when you in many cases effectively double the amount of ships on your side, or double the survivability of those ships, or double the disruptiveness of them. Anyway, the main problem is that you're tying it to a skill GÇö i.e. you're making skill grinding distinction (such as they exist in EVE) GÇö and that you're tying it specifically to the max level, which goes completely against the anti-munchkin design of the skill system. You could tie it to almost anything else and it wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem: it's just another siege mode at that point. At most it would become a GÇ£must haveGÇ¥ module/ship/implant/whatever for certain situations, but we have plenty of those already without them causing any problems, and they could be balanced separately as long as they weren't as closely tied to some other mechanic as what you're describing. You're in no way doubling anything except the bonuses which as I said do not make up the entire ship, they only supplement the existing stats. Doubling every stat would be ludicrous and I would never suggest that, even in a theoretical scenario.
In the case of the Vindi, you're getting 37% extra base damage. If the vindi's doing 2000 dps its not doing 2600ish, hardly doubling...
I hate to let this out of the bag but EvE has been a skillpoint grinding game since 2003, as far as you can 'grind' skill points, which is not very far.
I disagree with you, again. Want to make billions a week solo running combat sites in null sec? -á Read my Exploratation Guide here -> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=309467 |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
16669
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 08:51:00 -
[46] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:I hate to let this out of the bag but EvE has been a skillpoint grinding game since 2003, as far as you can 'grind' skill points, which is not very far. I hate to let this out of the bag, but in the nearly 10 years I've played, I've not ground 1 skill point ever.
But then the grind mechanic was removed before I started, so.....
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19279
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 09:00:00 -
[47] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:You're in no way doubling anything except the bonuses which as I said do not make up the entire ship, they only supplement the existing stats. GǪwhich, depending on the ship, is pretty much the same as doubling the number of ships. I'm not suggesting a doubling of every stat either, but rather that you cover a particular role twice over with one ship. Many of the T2 cruisers would fall into that category.
Quote:I hate to let this out of the bag but EvE has been a skillpoint grinding game since 2003, as far as you can 'grind' skill points, which is not very far. GǪwith the second exception (the low level cap being the first) that higher levels aren't always better. I'm not just talking about the instances where the last level don't do anything or even make your ship worse (I'm looking at you Tactical Shield Management), but about the instances where you can either train a skill to V and gain another 4% or you can train five skills to IV and gain a combined 150% bonus.
It really is a wonderfully anti-munchkin design in how it both avoids the GÇ£max level or gtfoGÇ¥ problem and the GÇ£can't catch upGÇ¥ issues that plagues the ability progression of most other games. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Jamagh
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
158
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 15:40:00 -
[48] - Quote
Jhanax wrote:Caviar Liberta wrote:Tippia wrote:They've pretty emphatically said GÇ£noGÇ¥ to that until they can figure out some unexplored niche to fit them into.
The closest (and I use that word very loosely) we got was some vague plans for T3 frigates, which were abandoned for the same reason. Adding new ships always runs the risk of making other ship or ships obsolete. Isn't that called evolution ( EVEvolution !!! ) ? Where would Captain Janeway and her crew be if they were stuck with the same technology and ship that Kerk had. Technology is supposed to get better over the years !
Well... they probably would not have lasted till the end of season one. Or at least became part of the Collective.
"Please stop reopening silly rumor threads."-á CCP Navigator. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
13817
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 16:05:00 -
[49] - Quote
Jhanax wrote:Am curious to know if there are any plans for tech III battleships to be introduced in future expansions ? If so, has anyone got ideas for the subsystem specs ?
hahah holy christ no!
1 Kings 12:11
|
OldWolf69
IR0N. SpaceMonkey's Alliance
136
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 16:52:00 -
[50] - Quote
Jhanax wrote:Am curious to know if there are any plans for tech III battleships to be introduced in future expansions ? If so, has anyone got ideas for the subsystem specs ? *Caldari Uber Jewing Isk Collector Offensive System |
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Billy McCandless
The McCandless Clan Turing Tested
273
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 16:57:00 -
[51] - Quote
Jhanax wrote:Where would Captain Janeway and her crew be if they were stuck with the same technology and ship that Kerk had. Technology is supposed to get better over the years !
there jel paks wood knot be brakeing everie fife minuets fore a start |
01101989
Six Feet Down Under
13
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 18:06:00 -
[52] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Tippia wrote:They've pretty emphatically said GÇ£noGÇ¥ to that until they can figure out some unexplored niche to fit them into.
The closest (and I use that word very loosely) we got was some vague plans for T3 frigates, which were abandoned for the same reason. Because there are already too many ships. . . And not enough fixing There are not too many ship. Not enough, I say. |
Jill Chastot
Oath of the Forsaken
209
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 19:13:00 -
[53] - Quote
Jhanax wrote:Tuttomenui II wrote:Jhanax wrote:
Imagine this in game:
Level 5 of a ship skill gives you the option to activate a ship specialist bonus which doubles the ships bonuses of previous levels but getting killed in the ship causes you to lose level 5 (20 to 30) days of training. So 50% tracking from level 5 of a Thrasher gets you 100% tracking but the possibility to lose level 5.
Now, I like that idea !!
Learn how to quote properly please, I find this kind of quoting annoying. Learn how to stick to the subject please, I find this kind of Grammar **** annoying.
He says pointlessly capitalizing G https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298596&find=unreadOATHS wants you. Come to the WH |
Harrison Tato
Barringtons Research
16
|
Posted - 2014.02.09 19:15:00 -
[54] - Quote
Jhanax wrote:Caviar Liberta wrote:Tippia wrote:They've pretty emphatically said GÇ£noGÇ¥ to that until they can figure out some unexplored niche to fit them into.
The closest (and I use that word very loosely) we got was some vague plans for T3 frigates, which were abandoned for the same reason. Adding new ships always runs the risk of making other ship or ships obsolete. Isn't that called evolution ( EVEvolution !!! ) ? Where would Captain Janeway and her crew be if they were stuck with the same technology and ship that Kerk had. Technology is supposed to get better over the years !
Kirk would never have gotten lost. |
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