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Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
56
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Posted - 2014.02.14 22:38:00 -
[61] - Quote
Erutpar Ambient wrote:Oh, i wanted to add one more thing.
In regards to Pod Express (changing med clone location and self destructing pod).
Instead of tying that into the PPP, why not just put a delay on changing your med clone location. Realistically how can you have a clone ready and made instantly in the new station? How fast does one really need to have their med clone relocated?
The amount of time is mostly arbitrary. 2 hours, 24 hours... It just needs to be significant enough to prevent abuse.
This is the better way of handling Med Clones. Most of the time, you do not need to worry about changing med clone stations. The main issue is if you get into the bad situation of being repeatedly podded.
Since Ship Jumping Mechanics are different from clone/podding, there is no power projection with a pod in and of itself - you only have power projection with something that has power - a ship. I would be happy with adding a time delay in medical clone transfer - have it mirror clone jumping to keep things simpler.
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Torijace
Aliastra Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2014.02.14 23:40:00 -
[62] - Quote
I hate to punch holes into your argument but i think your time comparison however interesting is comparing apples to oranges. The big difference between an crow and a Thanatos is about 1.2billion isk for that a Thanatos deserves I think a bit of an edge on force projection. Titan bridging however is a completely different situation and is still very unbalanced.
Titans:
-Almost never expose themselves while bridging (Titans are safe and rarely deployed on the field) -Move mass amount of ships long distance for minimal isk. -Make null sec logistics a joke (Titan bridging freighters)
The solution with 90% of the force projection problems in eve revolve around the titan and you could resolve this by requiring ships to dock and be moved with the titan (and carriers for that matter) instead of jumping through jump portals. You could also tie cost of jumping to the total mass of the ship jumping and all its cargo (including other ships). This would effect force projection by:
-Exposing titans every time they deploy ships to an engagement -Increase the cost of moving mass ships long distances -Limit the m3 of ships moved on a particular run (150 frigs might be able to dock with titan but only 20 battleships) -Forcing logistics by titan to be more expensive (though not prohibitively so) |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4874
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 23:46:00 -
[63] - Quote
Torijace wrote:I hate to punch holes into your argument but i think your time comparison however interesting is comparing apples to oranges. The big difference between an crow and a Thanatos is about 1.2billion isk for that a Thanatos deserves I think a bit of an edge on force projection. Titan bridging however is a completely different situation and is still very unbalanced.
Titans:
-Almost never expose themselves while bridging (Titans are safe and rarely deployed on the field) -Move mass amount of ships long distance for minimal isk. -Make null sec logistics a joke (Titan bridging freighters)
The solution with 90% of the force projection problems in eve revolve around the titan and you could resolve this by requiring ships to dock and be moved with the titan (and carriers for that matter) instead of jumping through jump portals. You could also tie cost of jumping to the total mass of the ship jumping and all its cargo (including other ships). This would effect force projection by:
-Exposing titans every time they deploy ships to an engagement -Increase the cost of moving mass ships long distances -Limit the m3 of ships moved on a particular run (150 frigs might be able to dock with titan but only 20 battleships) -Forcing logistics by titan to be more expensive (though not prohibitively so) Why should the giant siege weapon arrive before the scout? While cost is something to consider, it should not be one of the primary balancing factors. . |
Torijace
Aliastra Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2014.02.15 00:40:00 -
[64] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote: Why should the giant siege weapon arrive before the scout? While cost is something to consider, it should not be one of the primary balancing factors.
Why should an airplane arrive before a motorcycle? I don't think cost is the only thing to factor i think it has a lot to do with role..
You do make a good point though maybe without realizing it. Whats the roll of a titan to move mass groups of ships or to shoot things. If its the former then it should be designed more like a freighter with minimal armor and weapons and maximum space.. if however its a combat ship then it should have the armor and weapons to support that role. Rarely in life can you have it all ways.
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Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
56
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Posted - 2014.02.15 00:48:00 -
[65] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote: It's not like the cyno network is vulnerable from the time it is setup till the time you need it. You just log them off keeping the network 100% safe until you need it.
Indeed. That is what spies are paid to find out. Never-the-less, it has to be set up. |
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
56
|
Posted - 2014.02.15 00:56:00 -
[66] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote: Why should the giant siege weapon arrive before the scout? While cost is something to consider, it should not be one of the primary balancing factors.
How can the Titan Bridge without a scout in place? Or is there more magic to titan bridging than I last remember?
Scout/cyno arrives in system first.... always. But requiring the bridge device to travel as well since, unlike a jump bridge on a POS or a star gate, it is not anchored, would certainly effect how bridging is used in the game by exposing the Titan to attack.
This would be good. |
Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
90
|
Posted - 2014.02.15 02:13:00 -
[67] - Quote
(text limit had to cut the quote points but i tried to address all of them in order) other comments regarding cyno chains are also touched upon here
- the point of the spool up on a structure is to allow defenders to destroy the cyno - if the cyno's busted you can't jump to it - and therefore can't move - you can stop the opposition moving just by knowing there's about to be a cyno there. (timeframe of ~ 30 minutes total anchor and online with global beacon structure is plenty of warning for anyone to act and if you can't too bad.)
- Travel speed doesn't matter if you can't get to where you're needing to go ^ see destroyed cyno chains, PPP means if i spend PPP to get to rally chances are i'll no longer be able to deploy to the field with the fleet and therefore can't go. - see micromanaging fuel gauges and expending finite resource pools - this becomes especially pronounced the longer combat progresses and the coherence of the situation deteriorates.
- CTA's are pointless if no one can get to them on short notice, that's why they're CTA's - 'drop what you're doing and get here for the fleet we need to move in 5 minutes - yes fleet response times really do have to be this fast. the current systems cost to use, clone jumps cost time, blood jumps cost money - (in my case 30 mil just in the clone cost) which is plenty given the action you're undertaking - no one wants to prohibit people from participating, but nor can such powerful actions be totally free - the current system is sufficient here.
- Concerning use of territory in response to when to expand or not is a bit too lengthy an answer for this discussion - suffice to say there are many uses for space you don't use yourself, and predicting corporate level use of space on an individual level is impossible.
- Again, Movement itself is not the issue - Movement to specific points unhindered and with no prior warning is the issue, structures solve this, again - you cannot bridge or jump w/o a cyno to land on - so make the cyno an 'easier' target.
- This is where strategy comes in, not the tactics you confuse them with, you have to establish and defend cyno chains ahead of time and constantly - they also will expire of age and need replacing. - strategy is before and after the development of a combat situation, and may encompass several battles - tactics is start to end of a combat situation and consists of just one battle, the difference between the CPU and the processing threads it uses.
- (tactical aspect) Breaking into hostile systems and maintaining a force long enough to set up a cyno. (given gate distance restrictions etc on structures) becomes a difficult issue, requires forward planning and even then stands a very strong likely hood of failure due to hostile action - this is what we want.
- short answer, movement becomes less fluid because of logistics maintenance not fuel tanks - it is interrupted by the actions of other players not by a generic cool down number - much more preferable scenarios to ' oh damn i don't have 3 units of generic quantity 37 we have to wait an hour before we can do anything' - do not restrict the action from happening but allow it to be prevented - more people will be involved and interests will clash more frequently. (propper implementation of the logic behind ccp's foolish ESS concept)
- server side: structures will also avoid the need to constantly manage and maintain the PPP numbers of some 300 000 toons (or w/e the current number is) PPP in its current form is going to add load to the servers not decrease load, by using a passive method like the structures method suggested you avoid the need to waste energy maintaining so many additional numbers and still achieve a similar result - leaving more room for the servers to do what they're there to do - facilitate us shooting each other in the face.
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Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
56
|
Posted - 2014.02.15 05:02:00 -
[68] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:(text limit had to cut the quote points but i tried to address all of them in order) other comments regarding cyno chains are also touched upon here The List
Oh yes. I like that idea Ilyana. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4875
|
Posted - 2014.02.15 05:37:00 -
[69] - Quote
The problem with a spool up timer on cyno's is the moment they are lit, all one needs to do is look for the ship next to it (same distance) at zero speed. Then you just have your fleet volley it off the field. This can happen in just a few seconds. So the spool up timer would need to only have a delay of a couple seconds, which makes means adding the couple second delay is kind of pointless against medium to large sized fleets. Even if the cyno is not killed and you add a 5-10 minute delay on what comes in, it will not have any real effect on power projection in the grand scheme of things. . |
Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
91
|
Posted - 2014.02.15 05:53:00 -
[70] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:The problem with a spool up timer on cyno's is the moment they are lit, all one needs to do is look for the ship next to it (same distance) at zero speed. Then you just have your fleet volley it off the field. This can happen in just a few seconds. So the spool up timer would need to only have a delay of a couple seconds, which makes means adding the couple second delay is kind of pointless against medium to large sized fleets. Even if the cyno is not killed and you add a 5-10 minute delay on what comes in, it will not have any real effect on power projection in the grand scheme of things.
the idea is the cyno is no longer ship bound but a structure - the cyno generator ship module will cease to exist - so it's not the ship that needs to pop, but the deployable - which must be defended as it anchors/onlines before it activates and a fleet can jump to it :)
yes the issue is with the timer vs how much HP /how easy to RR this thing's going to be - the idea isn't to stop people from moving, it's to stop them from being able to 'you can try to move as much as you like but it does you no good cuz there's no cyno to land on - you can't move until there is, so for as long as they keep shooting them down your fleet's going nowhere'
so i can have the largest fleet in the world waiting to jump in - but for as long as the defenders keep stopping the cynos from coming online they can't move, which means sending fleets through gates to stop the defenders (much like you do to break a cyno jammed system) - which will mean active defense and patrolling border systems is rewarded: you find enemy cyno strings and fleet lines which you can then try to cut, once the chains are broken the enemy movement is severely restricted along that line - making things easier for the other side until the chain's repaired. |
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Sigras
Conglomo
674
|
Posted - 2014.02.15 06:24:00 -
[71] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Erutpar Ambient wrote:Oh, i wanted to add one more thing.
In regards to Pod Express (changing med clone location and self destructing pod).
Instead of tying that into the PPP, why not just put a delay on changing your med clone location. Realistically how can you have a clone ready and made instantly in the new station? How fast does one really need to have their med clone relocated?
The amount of time is mostly arbitrary. 2 hours, 24 hours... It just needs to be significant enough to prevent abuse. You are deployed to the far side of the game. A friendly titan is tackled back home or it is invaded. Everyone changes their medical clone back home and suicide pods there. All without burning any PPP making the deployment so far away less strategic. With the death clone tied in, they can still pod back, but everyone hopping into capitals and or immediately bridge on the enemy. It bring some balance into the equation. That make sense? I dont think you understood his post. He is proposing a delay on changing your med clone location, so in your scenario:
You are deployed to the far side of the game. A friendly titan is tackled back home or it is invaded. Everyone changes their medical clone back home. Since they were unprepared they need to wait 3 hours for the technicians in their home station to ready a clone (maybe longer if several clones are set to the same station all at once). After the preparation delay they suicide pod home to salvage the wreckage of the titan they were too late to save |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4875
|
Posted - 2014.02.15 16:30:00 -
[72] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Erutpar Ambient wrote:Oh, i wanted to add one more thing.
In regards to Pod Express (changing med clone location and self destructing pod).
Instead of tying that into the PPP, why not just put a delay on changing your med clone location. Realistically how can you have a clone ready and made instantly in the new station? How fast does one really need to have their med clone relocated?
The amount of time is mostly arbitrary. 2 hours, 24 hours... It just needs to be significant enough to prevent abuse. You are deployed to the far side of the game. A friendly titan is tackled back home or it is invaded. Everyone changes their medical clone back home and suicide pods there. All without burning any PPP making the deployment so far away less strategic. With the death clone tied in, they can still pod back, but everyone hopping into capitals and or immediately bridge on the enemy. It bring some balance into the equation. That make sense? I dont think you understood his post. He is proposing a delay on changing your med clone location, so in your scenario: You are deployed to the far side of the game. A friendly titan is tackled back home or it is invaded. Everyone changes their medical clone back home. Since they were unprepared they need to wait 3 hours for the technicians in their home station to ready a clone (maybe longer if several clones are set to the same station all at once). After the preparation delay they suicide pod home to salvage the wreckage of the titan they were too late to save Ahhh. Well that is different.
I kind of want to include it along with the PPP. . |
Jureth22
Vanguard Frontiers Black Legion.
157
|
Posted - 2014.02.15 17:20:00 -
[73] - Quote
didint knew eve has teleportation,is it asgard tech? |
Svodola Darkfury
Heaven's End League of Infamy
384
|
Posted - 2014.02.15 17:36:00 -
[74] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:I recently outlined an idea on changing the way we do teleportation in the game. In a way, power projection. The details can be found in my blog, Reversal of Fortune. Cancers of EVE Online: TeleportationWhile it is a long read, I feel it is important to take in the scope of everything that is involved. Please try not to be hung up on one aspect of it and really think about the big picture and how your operations, your enemies and the game in general would change with this change. Apologies if the blog format wreaks of noob mistakes, it is my first attempt at blogging and any feedback on improving the experience is always welcome via the site and or evemail.
A very interesting read Marlona and I think it is a possible solution; I do not like the idea of static POS mods taxing the PPP though. Given the inherent cost of setting up the network and the time delay on owning the system, seems like an unnecessary cost. Intrigued by the other ideas though.
Svo. CEO of Heaven's End; Bad League of Legends Player. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4876
|
Posted - 2014.02.15 18:16:00 -
[75] - Quote
Svodola Darkfury wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:I recently outlined an idea on changing the way we do teleportation in the game. In a way, power projection. The details can be found in my blog, Reversal of Fortune. Cancers of EVE Online: TeleportationWhile it is a long read, I feel it is important to take in the scope of everything that is involved. Please try not to be hung up on one aspect of it and really think about the big picture and how your operations, your enemies and the game in general would change with this change. Apologies if the blog format wreaks of noob mistakes, it is my first attempt at blogging and any feedback on improving the experience is always welcome via the site and or evemail. A very interesting read Marlona and I think it is a possible solution; I do not like the idea of static POS mods taxing the PPP though. Given the inherent cost of setting up the network and the time delay on owning the system, seems like an unnecessary cost. Intrigued by the other ideas though. Svo. The great thing about the design is the taxing amount can be adjusted. For example:
Instead of costing 5 light years in PPP to go 5 light years. CCP can adjust it so it only cost say 3 light years of PPP to go 5 light years.
The other thing I will be changing is the name of the resource. PPP and using light years as the resource is confusing. I am leaning on someone else's idea of changing it to Spatial Calibration. That way each teleportation mechanic can be adjusted to pull a different amount of SC points per light year distance traveled. Say a jump drive costs 1000 SC to go 1 light year, but taking a POS jump bridge uses 800 SC to go 1 light year. Same distance, but different strain on your Spacial Calibration points. . |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
347
|
Posted - 2014.02.16 16:03:00 -
[76] - Quote
I read your blog and agree with you that fast transportation is a problem, but couldn't you achieve a similar effect by making all the regional gaps a bit further apart - such that capital ships had a harder time jumping across regional boundaries? Or could not jump drive or Titan bridge across regional 0.0 boundaries at all? In other words, all regions would become more distinct. A huge coalition could still try to control multiple regions, but could not put all their eggs in one basket.
Another idea - along with the above - would be to let capitals use 0.0 gates if they fit special modules to lower mass (could be new mods or just nanofibers). They would still be very mobile within a region, but slow and vulnerable if moving between regions. http://eveion.blogspot.com/ |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
347
|
Posted - 2014.02.16 16:21:00 -
[77] - Quote
Erutpar Ambient wrote:Oh, i wanted to add one more thing.
In regards to Pod Express (changing med clone location and self destructing pod).
Instead of tying that into the PPP, why not just put a delay on changing your med clone location. Realistically how can you have a clone ready and made instantly in the new station? How fast does one really need to have their med clone relocated?
The amount of time is mostly arbitrary. 2 hours, 24 hours... It just needs to be significant enough to prevent abuse.
This is a good change. http://eveion.blogspot.com/ |
Kynric
Sky Fighters
43
|
Posted - 2014.02.16 19:21:00 -
[78] - Quote
Alternatively the sandbox could deal with the problem with just a few simple changes:
1. Make jump bridges take nearly all of the pos resources, effectively defanging the towers they are associated with. Also reduce their shield/armor hp to make incapacitating them practical for a small gang.
2. Declare that pos shields interfere with jumpdrives and simply not permit bridging or jumping out from within a pos shield.
These simple changes would make the teleportation network more fragile and vulnerable to small gangs. |
Ilyana Nehla
Sanctum Prime Spears of Destiny
7
|
Posted - 2014.02.17 06:27:00 -
[79] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote:
...text...
I see your point. Still I'd suggest a spoolup timer is much more versatile. Since you can manage it easier for every shiptype. I dont see why a JF should wait 30mins for the cyno to jump. Since we are talking about powerprojection militaryships are what we want to balance.
Additional: Structures are not as versatile. A Cynoship you can tank if needed. Lets say you are up against a fleet of a Laserfitted AHAC fleet you might want to push up the em and thermal resists. With structures you just get flat resists. Well that might help to deny a escalation you say but people want escalations dont they? Plus, the ship dropping the cyno is off the battle so -1 for the attacking fleet. Unless you give it like 2000m3 so a Industrial/blockade-runner something along these lines is needed to drop the structure. I'm with you on that.
Maybe even a "callout" to the local withing the region the cyno is charging like : "Mass detectors pick up a increasing force of gravity in this region[maybe insert region here]."
But even your changes to change a bit in the small scale it actually doesnt fix the problem of whole alliancefleets being everywhere within minutes.
As I said I see your point, but I am very sure it doesn't adresses the culprit, the root of all evil, concerning power projection. With your changes you might have the chance to retreat if a blobb is imminent but you certainly doesn't have the ability to successfully attack big entities and hurt them. Most of us here want smaller groups to be able to stich and hurt big entities if they don't plan properly. |
Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
91
|
Posted - 2014.02.17 11:17:00 -
[80] - Quote
Ilyana Nehla wrote:Wedgetail wrote:
...text...
I see your point. Still I'd suggest a spoolup timerm, which is much more versatile. Since you can manage it easier for every shiptype. I dont see why a JF should wait 30mins for the cyno to jump. Since we are talking about powerprojection militaryships are what we want to balance. Additional: Structures are not as versatile. A Cynoship you can tank if needed. Lets say you are up against a fleet of a Laserfitted AHACs. You might want to push up the em and thermal resists. With structures you just get flat resists. Well that might help to deny a escalation you say but people want escalations dont they? Plus, the ship dropping the cyno is off the battle so -1 for the dropping fleet. Unless you give it like 2000m3, so a Industrial(something along these lines) is needed to drop the structure. Maybe even a "callout" to the local withing the region the cyno is charging like : "Mass detectors pick up a increasing force of gravity in this region[maybe insert region here]." But even your changes to change a bit in the small scale it actually doesnt fix the problem of whole alliancefleets being everywhere within minutes. As I said I see your point, but I am very sure it doesn't adresses the culprit, the root of all evil, concerning power projection. With your changes you might have the chance to retreat if a blobb is imminent but you certainly doesn't have the ability to successfully attack big entities and hurt them. Most of us here want smaller groups to be able to stich and hurt big entities if they don't plan properly.
the thing is they can, both sides can move equally, structures have a life span of 30 days if not shot down - the cyno chain takes time to establish - hence the anchor times but from then on fires as cyno generators on towers do now - whenever you jump to them, so the idea is setting up a chain in peaceful space is easy - setting one up for imminent combat is not - cynos are not bound to toons so fitting a cyno ship and logging off in a system until you need it will not keep it safe (safer but not safe) is now no longer viable - you have to maintain the cyno chains much more actively - they are always there and so can be destroyed by anyone at any point in the day.
as i said the idea isn't to stop people from moving long distances it's to make it take effort (energy over time), and to provide a means for their opposition to prevent them from using that means of attack (to deny or disable) - the distance has never mattered ever, the frequency has and the inability to act to prevent it are what this issue is.
PPP won't help little guys in the least - for as long as both sides fight under the same constraints it'll always boil down to who has more resources to use - that's how it is now - guys who can jump and guys who can't distance is irrelevant as all entities have the same tech, be they blops titans carriers freighters w/e all share the same range based on skill for the same cost.
PPP is only going to make that worse when comparing little guys and big ones, if you wanna make the field more viable you have to introduce points of failure, places in the system that can be attacked and broken before the power of x gets to bear, having cynos as a vulnerable and more importantly persistent point will do this - PPP will not, as it cannot be 'attacked' sure it can be drained but when you're fighting a team that has three fleets to your one they'll just drain yours faster and you'll be faced against an opponent you can't out maneuver - cuz they have PPP in the pool and you spent yours draining the first guy's - again finite resource pools when playing numbers games BAD, leads to 'more pilots mean more resource bigger guys win' |
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Ilyana Nehla
Sanctum Prime Spears of Destiny
8
|
Posted - 2014.02.17 12:09:00 -
[81] - Quote
Wedgetail wrote: ...text...
You seem to miss the bigger picture my friend and mistake the title powerprojection only with assault and defense as a action. There is much more behind that. Its also about the possibility of moving the whole fleet from one side of the universe to where it is needed within minutes.
Let us take a working example from the current nullsec. CFC holds about 2/3 of the Nullsec sovs.
Lets pretend they are engaged at the northern theatre against N3 with 85% of their fleet positioned in or close to the borderregion to N3. Another group, attacks their southern sov. So for the rest of the CFC territory are 15% of force left for defence.
So, with your structures they anchor them in their space and can jump through their space relatively fast. It is slower (approx 20mins slower due to anchortime) than currently - yes- but it is still very very very safe and quick compared to gate travel. You've gained nothing, their power projection is just initially a tad slower. Are you with me on that?
In conclusion: Set up your jumpchain, wait 20minutes and you can jump like before without having to take a single gate. Your overall traveltime is (Currenttime + Anchortime(20minutes)).
With PPP's they can jump once but have to cross the remaining route either through highsec or (with SCaps) have to go around through their own territory - BY GATE. Which is much more vulnerable to camps and attrition than jumping - are you with me?
In conclusion: The bigger the territory you hold the more PPP you need to cross it by jumping. Since PPPs are finite you need more pilots dedicated to theaters since you simply can not be everywhere. A small alliance holding a few systems might just need 8PPP for a jump from one border to another so they can jump 4 times until their pool is depleted. A big alliance can maybe jump 1/4th of their territory and has to use gate travel then. The more "surface" (read :more borders) you have the more pilots you need. At first its growing linear and rises exponentially at a point where a (single max jump+gatetraveltime) isnt an option to defend your space. Its like the girth of a sphere at that point. |
Erutpar Ambient
The Flying Tigers Black Core Alliance
103
|
Posted - 2014.02.17 20:55:00 -
[82] - Quote
Ok, I have another idea. This one might make some sense. The one i had before about where cyno's could go would mostly just affect the ability to camp and junk, and would only affect pinpoint power projection, not total power projection.
First of all I think the solution to all of this stuff is in workload/effort redistribution.
Of course the pod mechanic I think is a good change to make immediately. What reason do you need to have your med clone moved immediately other than to teleport across the map. Pod Jumping has a timer per use, so should med clone in an effectively similar way.
So one of the ideas is about cyno's having a Spool up time. Well, I was thinking about the opposite. What if Ships had a spool up time to jump and bridge? And in this way they should have a longer spool up to jump/bridge longer distances. Maybe even a small exponential increase in time as the distance increases.
This would have some implications of course. First of all, capitals could no longer "jump out" immediately when in danger. This would put them on a sort of even playing field compared to sub caps that have to align and warp but not so detrimental that they would actually have to align and warp themselves.
Second, being able to put ships on the field effectively would require them to be nearby. Infact the closer they are the more effectively you can deploy them. This would curb real time power projection at range.
Another thing this would do is increase workload to cross the galaxy. To make the full jumps, you'll have to have a cyno sitting out in space for a while (the time is something that can be determined later, and maybe have a skill component). And the farther you make your jumps the longer the cyno has to sit in space and the longer your capitals are sitting in space too. They become a lot more susceptible during large move ops (another detourrant to trans-galactic move ops).
Then, along the same line's as Marlona's Original idea.
Another thing that could decrease Power Projection would also be a sort of time modifier for recent jumps. I would like to call it "Jump Drive Recalibration" So every time you make a jump (or start one), your ship will have an increased spool-up for the next jump. This would decrease over time of course. If we relate it to Marlona's Idea then the time period would be 24 hours for the Jump Drive to "Recalibrate". This could significantly reduce the amount of power someone can project across the galaxy in a 24 hour period.
If we did have a system like this we could just repackage the skill "Jump Drive Calibration" as the time modifier and have all capitals able to jump/bridge at their full range.
Or we can even do a system where the first jump is instant and the subsequent jumps are affected by the Recalibration mechanic.
In any case, I do find that this system is as restrictive as the PPP but without having a hard cap on the actions you can make. (Soft edges on the Sandbox) |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Test Alliance Please Ignore
538
|
Posted - 2014.02.17 22:46:00 -
[83] - Quote
I like the idea of Cynosural Fields as deployable objects with a spool-up (on-lining) timer. All the mechanics are already there. CCP would only need to swap a few digits in the database.
The bigger problem would be how to deal with the fuel (liquid ozone) usage. Should it simply sit there running indefinitely until it's decay timer has expired with no fuel usage? Should it be recoverable? Should it have a fuel bay?
Perhaps there could be different meta versions that can be jumped to from various ranges distances. They should have higher levels of Cynosural Field Theory required and larger volumes. Perhaps increased fuel usage.
They most definitely should not have reinforcement timers. I also think such a deployable should be allowed to anchor on-grid with other structures.
Currently the Cynosural Inhibitor is nearly useless because it has a significant onlining timer, whereas cynos do not. Free Ripley Weaver! |
WoAz
Dark Mason Society
5
|
Posted - 2014.02.17 22:51:00 -
[84] - Quote
Two easy solutions that could fix power projection:
1. A time delay linear proportional to LY jumped (e.g. 1LY = 10s) to jump again.
2. Caps jump in at zero capacitor.
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Erutpar Ambient
The Flying Tigers Black Core Alliance
103
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Posted - 2014.02.18 00:04:00 -
[85] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:I like the idea of Cynosural Fields as deployable objects with a spool-up (on-lining) timer. All the mechanics are already there. CCP would only need to swap a few digits in the database.
The bigger problem would be how to deal with the fuel (liquid ozone) usage. Should it simply sit there running indefinitely until it's decay timer has expired with no fuel usage? Should it be recoverable? Should it have a fuel bay?
Perhaps there could be different meta versions that can be jumped to from various ranges distances. They should have higher levels of Cynosural Field Theory required and larger volumes. Perhaps increased fuel usage.
They most definitely should not have reinforcement timers. I also think such a deployable should be allowed to anchor on-grid with other structures.
Currently the Cynosural Inhibitor is nearly useless because it has a significant onlining timer, whereas cynos do not.
You could use LO to build them, and once deployed they can't be scooped. Or you could put LO into them and it would run the module for a period of time based on the amount of LO and after it runs out you can scoop it. This module idea would be the easiest way to transition to a different cyno mechanic AND it would prevent ships from shielding the cyno i.e. a cyno on a carrier/super/titan.
Another thing about the delay to jump. It would be in order with the Micro Jump Drive module to have a delay.
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Erutpar Ambient
The Flying Tigers Black Core Alliance
103
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Posted - 2014.02.18 00:14:00 -
[86] - Quote
WoAz wrote:Two easy solutions that could fix power projection:
1. A time delay linear proportional to LY jumped (e.g. 1LY = 10s) to jump again.
2. Caps jump in at zero capacitor.
these 2 mechanics would push people to jump as far as possible in each jump. You could jump 10LY once and be out of capicitor once or you can jump 1ly 10 times, take 90 seconds extra total and have to recap 9 times (would would probably take significantly more time than the 90 secs for each jump.)
Tell me again how this is supposed to reduce power projection? |
Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
91
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Posted - 2014.02.18 03:01:00 -
[87] - Quote
Ilyana Nehla wrote:Wedgetail wrote: ...text...
You seem to miss the bigger picture my friend and mistake the title powerprojection only with assault and defense as a action. There is much more behind that. Its also about the possibility of moving the whole fleet from one side of the universe to where it is needed within minutes. Let us take a working example from the current nullsec. CFC holds about 2/3 of the Nullsec sovs. Lets pretend they are engaged at the northern theatre against N3 with 85% of their fleet positioned in or close to the borderregion to N3. Another group, attacks their southern sov. So for the rest of the CFC territory are 15% of force left for defence. So, with your structures they anchor them in their space and can jump through their space relatively fast. It is slower (approx 20mins slower due to anchortime) than currently - yes- but it is still very very very safe and quick compared to gate travel. You've gained nothing, their power projection is just initially a tad slower. Are you with me on that? In conclusion: Set up your jumpchain, wait 20minutes and you can jump like before without having to take a single gate. Your overall traveltime is (Currenttime + Anchortime(20minutes)). With PPP's they can jump once but have to cross the remaining route either through highsec or (with SCaps) have to go around through their own territory - BY GATE. Which is much more vulnerable to camps and attrition than jumping - are you with me? In conclusion: The bigger the territory you hold the more PPP you need to cross it by jumping. Since PPPs are finite you need more pilots dedicated to theaters since you simply can not be everywhere. A small alliance holding a few systems might just need 8PPP for a jump from one border to another so they can jump 4 times until their pool is depleted. A big alliance can maybe jump 1/4th of their territory and has to use gate travel then. The more "surface" (read :more borders) you have the more pilots you need. At first its growing linear and rises exponentially at a point where a (single max jump+gatetraveltime) isnt an option to defend your space. Its like the girth of a sphere at that point.
No, i understand full well that it's about being able to move - that's the point - that ability needs to be maintained so everyone can get to the fights - the strategy level comes in trying to break open a specific place so that you can actually move there. - the point is to have those lines take enough time to setup that a random roam can cut them to ribbons 'yeah i could move from one end to the other...but some random jerk just took a sledge hammer to the roadway we weren't actively defending so we gotta wait another hour to set the damn thing up'
( though if the CFC need to use deployables to move through thier own sov then their cyno towers aren't up to scratch ;) )
thing is they have a force on both fronts anyway, all alliances do either their own or one of their allies, by increasing the time delay to get from one side to another, by allowing those chains to be more easily cut you increase the chance that the standing force will be obliterated first - PPP tries to do that but it does it by simply removing everyone's ability to move anywhere - again 2 hours is ok, 2 days is not - most fighting ends within half an hour - most fleet fights inside 2. and occasionally you get a system that has enough in it worth a fight that lasts for days.
there are already deployable cyno jammers to stop fleets landing on top of you - this works on the same principle - you know those fleets are coming, you know you can act with a much smaller force to delay them, you can also block them arriving at their target.
the strategic play then becomes 'how do i draw the holding forces out of position in this region - how do i lock them in place so i can get the rest of my fleet in/out - there becomes a need to wage several battles at once in order to get heavier assets into where they need to be.
i want them to come rushing at me with a giant fleet it means i can destroy them - at the same time for that to work i need to be able to direct the terms under which they field - and if they run at me here other people will get an openign to wipe out space on that side. (equally my opponent can fight to stop me, and force their fleet through on terms that aren't ideal) - right now none of that play exists - it's insta win cyno or it's not.
for all i've seen and cases that've been made here PPP is gonna choke the game more than it helps. force projection itself isn't the problem - being able to move is a natural component of being in space - that doesn't mean you get to always go where you like without someone else getting uppity about it - so all we need is a means to stop those fleets effecting a move to begin with, and if that's too much effort for your side then ofc they're gonna move, cuz you let them do it, the more space there is the wider the window opens. |
Vesan Terakol
Sad Face Enterprises
38
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Posted - 2014.02.18 13:03:00 -
[88] - Quote
Hey, just had an idea of how to implement this idea in a lore-friendly manner, tho it only directly works for capitals (BlOps), i guess.. What if the refueling of a jump drive took a certain amount of time per unit of fuel - not like you have to transport it in your inventory one by one, but once inside the fuel bay, it takes a limited time for each unit to become usable? It will also limit bridging, as a single titan ca bridge a limited amount of ships before having to refuel. |
Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
91
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Posted - 2014.02.19 04:24:00 -
[89] - Quote
forgot to do this yesterday but regarding the comment on 'how these structures work'
I was working on the idea that they would be a finite number of activations, (so one guy jumping makes the beacon active for 10 minutes or w/e timer much like current modules) and that would be the 'justification' to the structure, 'most of it is a large battery for the cyno generator and FTL com array it uses' - it would also serve the purpose of making the chains much less permanent than POS mounted structures as they cannot be refueled - opening up several ways using these could go wrong over longer distance/time frames.
so while the maximum decay rate would be 30 days, like a wormhole depending on the amount of travel it'd round out to be much less.
for this to work well though the system would be on a standings basis, so 'allow use by alliance standing, corp standing, personal standing' (personal is to allow for some interesting awoxing ;) ) and part of the spool up time would be used to configure these.
(current understanding is the cyno module creates a gravity well and uses fluid router networks via stargates and fleet secure coms to transmit data used by the jumping ship to accurately form and target the micro singularities they use to bridge/jump - so a standings based system wouldn't quite fit with this without a bit of fudging)
another alternative would be to recycle the pos shield password mechanic, so if you had the cyno passwords you could 'hijack' the cynos - eating away at some one else's jump capacity... w/o them noticing.... >=) |
Ilyana Nehla
Sanctum Prime Spears of Destiny
8
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Posted - 2014.02.19 07:56:00 -
[90] - Quote
Quote:- most fighting ends within half an hour - most fleet fights inside 2
I still wonder why you are talking about fighting at all time. Its not about being able to deploy or not able to deploy in battles in teh first place. Its about how fast it is possible to move fleets. Whether its to deploy them in battle or just the warning of a imminent attack and the following rerouting of fleets. Its about the general ability to move a carrier in 7 Minutes for a distance of 198Jumps while even a Crow needs roughly 1h. Whereas the carrier provides more utility, more tank and more dps and faces a lot less threat due to not have to use gates.
Where in gawds name don't you understand this?
Quote:thing is they have a force on both fronts anyway, all alliances do either their own or one of their allies, by increasing the time delay to get from one side to another, by allowing those chains to be more easily cut you increase the chance that the standing force will be obliterated first
They might have forces but nowhere near the amount they have at their main frontline. Germany did not have the troopstrength at their western front on D-Day than they did on the eastern did they?
Now it takes 7 Minutes to jump with a carrier for 198 Jumps - from one side of the Universe to the other. Thats like 2 Hours after D-Day some Tiger-Panzers dropped onto omaha beach and shot the muricans into stoneage just to vanish 2 hours later to jumop back to the eastern front.
Thats our gripe! |
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