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Shrewd Tsero
Aventine Legion
3
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Posted - 2014.02.13 17:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
After reading lots of posts on the forums and from discussions in game, I'm continually bothered by variantions on the phrase "By playing/undocking/mining/etc. in this game you consent to PvP." The phrase just irks me. No, I'm not complaining about PvP in Eve. Getting butthurt about someone blowing you to bits in Eve is like getting pissed at being wet after walking out into the rain that you were looking at through your windows. It's one of the fundamental aspects of the game. But can you really say that by undocking in Eve you "consent" to PvP? Or do you simply acknowledge that it could happen? Quick dictionary search gives me:
acknowledge verb (used with object), ac-+knowl-+edged, ac-+knowl-+edg-+ing. 1. to admit to be real or true; recognize the existence, truth, or fact of: to acknowledge one's mistakes.
consent verb (used without object) 1. to permit, approve, or agree; comply or yield (often followed by to or an infinitive): He consented to the proposal. We asked her permission, and she consented.
Seems more like acknowledgement than consent to me. Not a big deal, but I know a lot of people get stuck on that word consent (including me) whenever it comes up. |
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
1095
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Posted - 2014.02.13 17:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
:popcorn: "You should just create one thread and put all of your complaints in it instead of littering the forums with multiple threads." ~CCP Falcon
www.eve-radio.com -áJoin Eve Radio channel in game! |
Harrison Tato
Barringtons Research
19
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Posted - 2014.02.13 17:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
Proper trolls like the word consent because it fits into the "you were asking for it for going out in that slutty ship fit" paradigm. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19338
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Posted - 2014.02.13 17:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
Shrewd Tsero wrote:But can you really say that by undocking in Eve you "consent" to PvP? Yes. By undocking, you permit people to PvP you and you agree to fly around in a full-PvP environment. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
99452
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Posted - 2014.02.13 17:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
Shrewd Tsero wrote:After reading lots of posts on the forums and from discussions in game, I'm continually bothered by variantions on the phrase "By playing/undocking/mining/etc. in this game you consent to PvP." The phrase just irks me. No, I'm not complaining about PvP in Eve. Getting butthurt about someone blowing you to bits in Eve is like getting pissed at being wet after walking out into the rain that you were looking at through your windows. It's one of the fundamental aspects of the game. But can you really say that by undocking in Eve you "consent" to PvP? Or do you simply acknowledge that it could happen? Quick dictionary search gives me:
acknowledge verb (used with object), ac-+knowl-+edged, ac-+knowl-+edg-+ing. 1. to admit to be real or true; recognize the existence, truth, or fact of: to acknowledge one's mistakes.
consent verb (used without object) 1. to permit, approve, or agree; comply or yield (often followed by to or an infinitive): He consented to the proposal. We asked her permission, and she consented.
Seems more like acknowledgement than consent to me. Not a big deal, but I know a lot of people get stuck on that word consent (including me) whenever it comes up.
Indeed. I have no idea where this consent business got started. Nor the "permission" business.
But, upon undocking, I have acknowledged that there is a chance of being blown up. Fine. But absolutely nobody has my consent or "permission" to do so. But they are welcome to try.
When I take my car out of the garage in the morning, I acknowledge that I may actually meat a horrible death by fire.
But absolutely nobody has my consent or permission to do so.
Idiotic rhetorical games by folks who don't really know anything and want to harass new players with "scary information". Such BS nonsense.
"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."-á - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882 |
djentropy Ovaert
Crazy Bird Inc.
73
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Posted - 2014.02.13 17:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Yes. By undocking, you permit people to PvP you and you agree to fly around in a full-PvP environment.
Yup.
This is how the game works, people.
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djentropy Ovaert
Crazy Bird Inc.
75
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Posted - 2014.02.13 17:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
I think we are kinda splitting hairs here.
I don't think anyone really cares about the different between "consent versus acknowledgment" and can all agree on "By undocking, you are placing your ship in a position where it may be fired on."
Simple. Nothing to see here. Move on :) |
Alduin666 Shikkoken
Perkone Caldari State
470
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Posted - 2014.02.13 17:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
Crap, was there a madfellows meeting and I wasn't notified? Quick let me get my tinfoil hat. Honor is a fools prize. Glory is of no use to the dead.
Be a man! Post with your main! ~Vas'Avi Community Manager |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1719
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Posted - 2014.02.13 17:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
Shrewd Tsero wrote:Seems more like acknowledgement than consent to me. Not a big deal, but I know a lot of people get stuck on that word consent (including me) whenever it comes up.
You're right, however there is a reason people choose to use the word "consent" in this context. Players who describe undocking as "consent" are intentionally misusing the word in order to communicate clearly an important idea. That idea is that consent is never a requirement for pvp, and players should not be surprised or feel wronged by CCP if pvp happens to them without their consent. If you can equate undocking with consent, that eliminates the basis for outrage.
The argument can of course be made that by playing the game, you are consenting to whatever may happen in the game. You don't have to like it to consent to it. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
163
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Posted - 2014.02.13 18:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
djentropy Ovaert wrote:I think we are kinda splitting hairs here.
I don't think anyone really cares about the different between "consent versus acknowledgment" and can all agree on "By undocking, you are placing your ship in a position where it may be fired on."
Simple. Nothing to see here. Move on :)
I don't think it is splitting hairs. The distinction is critical. "Consent" is a word used by antisocials to deflect responsibility for their actions from themselves, and allows them to squarely place it on the victim. "Acknowledgement" does not allow them the same privilege. So they will fight OP's assertion because if they cannot cleanse away responsibility for their misdeeds with "consent" they will be forced to admit they truely are assholes. And, they know once that happens, the legitimacy of everything they do disappears. They will no longer be cogs in a pvp machine. Instead they will be like any garden variety thug, beating up on others for the pleasure of hurting someone, "because they can." |
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Chad Ramsbottom
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.02.13 18:09:00 -
[11] - Quote
Shizuken wrote:djentropy Ovaert wrote:I think we are kinda splitting hairs here.
I don't think anyone really cares about the different between "consent versus acknowledgment" and can all agree on "By undocking, you are placing your ship in a position where it may be fired on."
Simple. Nothing to see here. Move on :) I don't think it is splitting hairs. The distinction is critical. "Consent" is a word used by antisocials to deflect responsibility for their actions from themselves, and allows them to squarely place it on the victim. "Acknowledgement" does not allow them the same privilege. So they will fight OP's assertion because if they cannot cleanse away responsibility for their misdeeds with "consent" they will be forced to admit they truely are assholes. And, they know once that happens, the legitimacy of everything they do disappears. They will no longer be cogs in a pvp machine. Instead they will be like any garden variety thug, beating up on others for the pleasure of hurting someone, "because they can."
Someone's mad that PVP exists.
http://worldofwarcraft.com/ |
admiral root
Red Galaxy Disband.
795
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Posted - 2014.02.13 18:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
Shizuken wrote:I don't think it is splitting hairs. The distinction is critical. "Consent" is a word used by antisocials to deflect responsibility for their actions from themselves, and allows them to squarely place it on the victim. "Acknowledgement" does not allow them the same privilege. So they will fight OP's assertion because if they cannot cleanse away responsibility for their misdeeds with "consent" they will be forced to admit they truely are assholes. And, they know once that happens, the legitimacy of everything they do disappears. They will no longer be cogs in a pvp machine. Instead they will be like any garden variety thug, beating up on others for the pleasure of hurting someone, "because they can."
Don't you think that you're taking this game a bit too seriously? No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1719
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Posted - 2014.02.13 18:10:00 -
[13] - Quote
Shizuken wrote: They will no longer be cogs in a pvp machine. Instead they will be like any garden variety thug, beating up on others for the pleasure of hurting someone, "because they can."
This is splitting hairs. Also, I think you meant to post this in the "Eve players are psychopaths" thread, because I can't filter out the point you're trying to make from the laughable value judgements. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Notorious Fellon
Republic University Minmatar Republic
216
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Posted - 2014.02.13 18:11:00 -
[14] - Quote
Shizuken wrote:djentropy Ovaert wrote:I think we are kinda splitting hairs here.
I don't think anyone really cares about the different between "consent versus acknowledgment" and can all agree on "By undocking, you are placing your ship in a position where it may be fired on."
Simple. Nothing to see here. Move on :) I don't think it is splitting hairs. The distinction is critical. "Consent" is a word used by antisocials to deflect responsibility for their actions from themselves, and allows them to squarely place it on the victim. "Acknowledgement" does not allow them the same privilege. So they will fight OP's assertion because if they cannot cleanse away responsibility for their misdeeds with "consent" they will be forced to admit they truely are assholes. And, they know once that happens, the legitimacy of everything they do disappears. They will no longer be cogs in a pvp machine. Instead they will be like any garden variety thug, beating up on others for the pleasure of hurting someone, "because they can."
You will not likely *ever* get any clown on these boards to admit they are "assholes" as you put it. The forum community is allowed to run rampant and treat everyone else like trash. You are trying to argue intellectually with a group of people who get their joy from other people's tears.
Block them and move on. There are good players *in* the game. They are just hard to find. The forum is not the place to find them. Stop banging your head on the wall. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
16256
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Posted - 2014.02.13 18:13:00 -
[15] - Quote
Implied consent is probably more accurate than consent,
implied consent n. consent when surrounding circumstances exist which would lead a reasonable person to believe that this consent had been given, although no direct, express or explicit words of agreement had been uttered.
I |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
507
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Posted - 2014.02.13 18:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: ... Indeed. I have no idea where this consent business got started. Nor the "permission" business.
I do.
Would you like to know more? |
djentropy Ovaert
Crazy Bird Inc.
76
|
Posted - 2014.02.13 18:14:00 -
[17] - Quote
Shizuken wrote:
I don't think it is splitting hairs. The distinction is critical. "Consent" is a word used by antisocials to deflect responsibility for their actions from themselves, and allows them to squarely place it on the victim. "Acknowledgement" does not allow them the same privilege. So they will fight OP's assertion because if they cannot cleanse away responsibility for their misdeeds with "consent" they will be forced to admit they truely are assholes. And, they know once that happens, the legitimacy of everything they do disappears. They will no longer be cogs in a pvp machine. Instead they will be like any garden variety thug, beating up on others for the pleasure of hurting someone, "because they can."
ummm, wut?
This is Eve. It's a game about spaceships and players making other spaceships go boom.
I think you're overthinking things and taking things a little too seriously. |
stoicfaux
4087
|
Posted - 2014.02.13 18:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
Do you acknowledge that CCP takes $14.95 every month from you? Or do you consent to letting CCP take $14.95 every month from you?
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19342
|
Posted - 2014.02.13 18:16:00 -
[19] - Quote
Shizuken wrote:I don't think it is splitting hairs. The distinction is critical. "Consent" is a word used by antisocials to deflect responsibility for their actions from themselves, and allows them to squarely place it on the victim. Wrong way around. GÇ£ConsentGÇ¥ is used by people who actually play the game as it is, rather than as they wish it were, to signify the fact that the self-proclaimed victim is responsible for their own safety. They are in full control over whether they can be attacked or not, and have willingly put themselves in a position where it is possible and occasionally even probable.
It's used to demonstrate the ignorance of all kinds of GÇ£I wasn't doing anything, so why did they attack?GÇ¥ attempts at denying one's own involvement and role in what transpires. The whole GÇ£I wasn't doing anythingGÇ¥ relies on the incorrect (for EVE) notion that attacks only happens (or at least only should happen) by consent, and the obvious counter to this is that they did consent to being attacked: after all, they undocked. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Shrewd Tsero
Aventine Legion
7
|
Posted - 2014.02.13 18:17:00 -
[20] - Quote
Batelle wrote:You're right, however there is a reason people choose to use the word "consent" in this context. Players who describe undocking as "consent" are intentionally misusing the word in order to communicate clearly an important idea. That idea is that consent is never a requirement for pvp, and players should not be surprised or feel wronged by CCP if pvp happens to them without their consent. If you can equate undocking with consent, that eliminates the basis for outrage.
This I can get behind.
It's all probably just trivial semantics anyway to try and make a distinction, but I know that using that phrase riles people up (as evidenced by some of the responses here). Personally, I expect to be engaged whenever I fly about in my ship (a lesson I leared the hard way). I can, however, appreciate when it pisses someone off. Telling them afterward that "they asked for it" just seems douchlike.
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Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
1096
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Posted - 2014.02.13 18:20:00 -
[21] - Quote
I think it's more about setting an expectation than any of the other **** that has been described here. If you undock with the expectation that someone else is going to blow you up as soon as the loading screen has you outside the station, you are better equipped to prepare for and prevent said blowing up of stuff.
If, on the other hand, you undock without that expectation - well that's on you.
If I shoot an ostrich with a rifle, it isn't going to matter if he has his head in the sand. That ******* bird is going to die. "You should just create one thread and put all of your complaints in it instead of littering the forums with multiple threads." ~CCP Falcon
www.eve-radio.com -áJoin Eve Radio channel in game! |
Notorious Fellon
Republic University Minmatar Republic
216
|
Posted - 2014.02.13 18:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
Shrewd Tsero wrote:Batelle wrote:You're right, however there is a reason people choose to use the word "consent" in this context. Players who describe undocking as "consent" are intentionally misusing the word in order to communicate clearly an important idea. That idea is that consent is never a requirement for pvp, and players should not be surprised or feel wronged by CCP if pvp happens to them without their consent. If you can equate undocking with consent, that eliminates the basis for outrage. This I can get behind. It's all probably just trivial semantics anyway to try and make a distinction, but I know that using that phrase riles people up (as evidenced by some of the responses here). Personally, I expect to be engaged whenever I fly about in my ship (a lesson I leared the hard way). I can, however, appreciate when it pisses someone off. Telling them afterward that "they asked for it" just seems douchlike.
The very reason that some people use such language is *because* it *does* rile people up. That is the very concept of trolling. Saying something with the intent to get a rise out of someone; usually something on the extreme end of the discussion that is so marginal it should just be ignored.
Same is true for those who take jabs at someone after they have violenced their spaceship; they are hoping for a response. Generally due to some kind of love-me-daddy issues or attention-***** disorder. |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1724
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Posted - 2014.02.13 18:49:00 -
[23] - Quote
Notorious Fellon wrote: The very reason that some people use such language is *because* it *does* rile people up. That is the very concept of trolling. Saying something with the intent to get a rise out of someone; usually something on the extreme end of the discussion that is so marginal it should just be ignored.
People get riled up by the idea because it challenges their assumptions of what they may be entitled to in the game. Using "consent" is the most direct way to challenge those assumptions. This is not trolling.
Quote: Same is true for those who take jabs at someone after they have violenced their spaceship; they are hoping for a response. Generally due to some kind of love-me-daddy issues or attention-***** disorder.
You also seem to have missed the "Eve players are psychopaths" thread. Please project your value judgements somewhere else where people will care. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Serene Repose
Saanen Freight Service
939
|
Posted - 2014.02.13 18:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
Pssst...don't listen to Tippia. I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |
stoicfaux
4089
|
Posted - 2014.02.13 18:58:00 -
[25] - Quote
Okay, how about this:
I consent to playing in a PvP focused game. I acknowledge that fact by how I fit my ship or by what cargo I carry or by how I fly. Do I consent to having my ship blown up? Not really, especially if I was trying to avoid it in the first place.
Probably the only time people consent to have their ship blown up is for things like insurance fraud, or for that FW isk/LP currency manipulation the goons did a while back.
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
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Pok Nibin
Filial Pariahs
222
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Posted - 2014.02.13 19:01:00 -
[26] - Quote
I ACKNOWLEDGE the presence of rattlesnakes on the Mojave. When I go out there, I don't CONSENT to being bitten by one. Don't fight it.-á Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs.-á You know you want to. |
Notorious Fellon
Republic University Minmatar Republic
216
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Posted - 2014.02.13 19:19:00 -
[27] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Notorious Fellon wrote: The very reason that some people use such language is *because* it *does* rile people up. That is the very concept of trolling. Saying something with the intent to get a rise out of someone; usually something on the extreme end of the discussion that is so marginal it should just be ignored.
People get riled up by the idea because it challenges their assumptions of what they may be entitled to in the game. Using "consent" is the most direct way to challenge those assumptions. This is not trolling. Quote: Same is true for those who take jabs at someone after they have violenced their spaceship; they are hoping for a response. Generally due to some kind of love-me-daddy issues or attention-***** disorder.
You also seem to have missed the "Eve players are psychopaths" thread. Please project your value judgements somewhere else where people will care.
Whether or not you specifically "care" about my posts in no way prevents them from happening. Get off your high horse.
Sending an in game mail, or shouting in local after a pvp match such things as "you suck noob" is poor sportsmanship at best. Look at that; even though Batelle wanted to stop me from posting, it still happened. And I was judging someone's actions. Crazy.
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Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1725
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Posted - 2014.02.13 19:23:00 -
[28] - Quote
Notorious Fellon wrote: Whether or not you specifically "care" about my posts in no way prevents them from happening. Get off your high horse.
Of course it doesn't prevent them. That's why I said "please" in my post, and phrased as a request rather than a demand.
Quote: Sending an in game mail, or shouting in local after a pvp match such things as "you suck noob" is poor sportsmanship at best.
See, I agree with you 100%, but this is off-topic. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Clementina
Coreli Corporation
136
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Posted - 2014.02.13 19:29:00 -
[29] - Quote
Really, you don't have to subscribe to this video game. You give your money freely to CCP and in return they let you authenticate to the servers. The game has always been advertized as a place with Player vs. Player combat. You might win said PvP or even lose. It was part of the package that was sold to you, this package is deliverable when you hit the undock button.
When you undock, and fly around the world of Eve you might get blown up; by an ebil pirate, by a fluffy carebear, by anyone in between. Everyone has to deal with this; Me, Tippia, Harkonnan, even you Shrewd Tsero.
If you're mad at losing a ship recently you're probably thinking about things from the prospective of the gankee. Take some time though to imagine yourself as the ganker. There is the thrill of victory for ganking a ship, but also the possibility of defeat if ships get away, or put you down instead, or end up being a trap. Embrace the fighting, once you do some fights become fun even to lose, you'll know the reason why people say the undock button is consent to PvP, and you'll have a much more enjoyable game.
P.S. The original poster does fly some pretty slutty ships. |
Galen Darksmith
Sky Fighters
168
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Posted - 2014.02.13 19:30:00 -
[30] - Quote
Shrewd Tsero wrote:Batelle wrote:You're right, however there is a reason people choose to use the word "consent" in this context. Players who describe undocking as "consent" are intentionally misusing the word in order to communicate clearly an important idea. That idea is that consent is never a requirement for pvp, and players should not be surprised or feel wronged by CCP if pvp happens to them without their consent. If you can equate undocking with consent, that eliminates the basis for outrage. This I can get behind. It's all probably just trivial semantics anyway to try and make a distinction, but I know that using that phrase riles people up (as evidenced by some of the responses here). Personally, I expect to be engaged whenever I fly about in my ship (a lesson I leared the hard way). I can, however, appreciate when it pisses someone off. Telling them afterward that "they asked for it" just seems douchlike.
It's implicit consent, but it's still consent.
Mainly I see it's use for people who come from other MMOs. In those games, you usually have to choose to "flag" yourself for PvP. Otherwise, no one can touch you without your consent. On PvP server, you are automatically flagged if you leave certain "safe zones": In essence, your consent was automatically given when you chose to roll on a PvP server and leave the safe zone.
In EVE, there is no PvP server, and the closest thing to a safe zone is a station. Hence why, when you undock, you consent to that the fact that your boat MAY be violenced. You're not "asking for it" (and honestly, don't try to equate victim blaming of a horrific real life crime with losing internet space pixels. I'm sure you didn't mean offense, but...), but you've opened yourself up to the possibility. People coming from other MMOs need to understand this important concept. "EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for." -CCP Wrangler |
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