Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
41
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 17:02:00 -
[31] - Quote
WASPY69 wrote:OP lost his/her Orca and this is now a stealth "nerf destroyers, buff Orcas" thread. Quite the opposite actually, I was simply doing some risk calculation as before I had been estimating the risk based simply on Tornado alpha when hauling. It seems my estimates were way out though and now thinking back I feel lucky I wasn't ganked many time before as it surely would have been profitable for the gankers to do so.
In light of these finding I would suggest reducing the concord response time in order to balance things out slightly.
My other thoughts on the matter would be that the rebalanced Transport ships could help out in this matter, the cloaked hauler could be given more cargo capacity as it is already immune from this problem, and the heavy transport ships could be buffed significantly to make them viable to be used in high sec. Right now a maximum tanked Impel with only 5000m3 capacity can be taken out by 10 T1 catalysts costing 20 million, or 6 T2 catalysts costing 60 million.
|
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
41
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 17:04:00 -
[32] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:Catalyst fits Those Catalysts should have a Small Hybrid Aerator I and a Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I fitted, they're cheap and they buff the DPS by around 9% when used. Good point. And I actually forgot to put the overheating bonus on the EFT numbers also. |
Ammzi
Love Squad Black Legion.
1686
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 17:08:00 -
[33] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote: In light of these finding I would suggest reducing the concord response time in order to balance things out slightly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Chatelier's_principle
Quote:Any change in status quo prompts an opposing reaction in the responding system.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19418
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 17:11:00 -
[34] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:In light of these finding I would suggest reducing the concord response time in order to balance things out slightly. But that's just it: there's no imbalance to balance out. If anything, CONCORD is a bit too quick at the moment, as demonstrated by the complexity and co-ordination required for something as seemingly trivial as a suicide gank.
Quote:My other thoughts on the matter would be that the rebalanced Transport ships could help out in this matter, the cloaked hauler could be given more cargo capacity as it is already immune from this problem, and the heavy transport ships could be buffed significantly to make them viable to be used in high sec. God no. The very restrictive cargo hold of blockade runners is there to balance out the massive advantage they have overGǪ wellGǪ everything, really. The transport ships are already viable, just not as bulk haulers.
Quote:Right now a maximum tanked Impel with only 5000m3 capacity can be taken out by 10 T1 catalysts costing 20 million, or 6 T2 catalysts costing 60 million. So? Both 10 and 6 is more than 1. That's no reason to change anything. If you apply even a minute fraction of the coordination needed for the gank to the task of transporting your goods, the gank becomes pretty much completely impossible. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
41
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 17:18:00 -
[35] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:In light of these finding I would suggest reducing the concord response time in order to balance things out slightly. But that's just it: there's no imbalance to balance out. If anything, CONCORD is a bit too quick at the moment, as demonstrated by the complexity and co-ordination required for something as seemingly trivial as a suicide gank. Quote:My other thoughts on the matter would be that the rebalanced Transport ships could help out in this matter, the cloaked hauler could be given more cargo capacity as it is already immune from this problem, and the heavy transport ships could be buffed significantly to make them viable to be used in high sec. God no. The very restrictive cargo hold of blockade runners is there to balance out the massive advantage they have overGǪ wellGǪ everything, really. The transport ships are already viable, just not as bulk haulers. Quote:Right now a maximum tanked Impel with only 5000m3 capacity can be taken out by 10 T1 catalysts costing 20 million, or 6 T2 catalysts costing 60 million. So? Both 10 and 6 is more than 1. That's no reason to change anything. I'm not going to argue about balance, but all I can say is I'm looking here at the numbers right now and it looks very profitable to be a suicide ganker. I would probably recommend the Talos though instead of a catalyst for most heavy ships as Emma mentioned, this is simply because it is much easier as you only need a few of them to take out most ships. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
3529
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 17:22:00 -
[36] - Quote
29 catalysts should be able to destroy your orca..... even if it is tanked fit.
Think about how much their efforts are worth! To get 30 people together, hunting and ready to suicide attack a ship takes time and effort. Their ships might cost 60m isk, but what are they going to get for their efforts?
If they are looking for profit: 30 people, paid 20m a piece = 600m. With a 50% drop rate, you need to have >1b isk in loot in the freighter to make it worth their time.
If they are attacking you for fun, you must have done something to spark that much of a coordinated attack on your ship.
Realize, in EvE, sometimes you just lose your ship. Someone bigger, better organized, and prepared will occasionally destroy your stuff. Deal with it.
|
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
3529
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 17:25:00 -
[37] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Tippia wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:In light of these finding I would suggest reducing the concord response time in order to balance things out slightly. But that's just it: there's no imbalance to balance out. If anything, CONCORD is a bit too quick at the moment, as demonstrated by the complexity and co-ordination required for something as seemingly trivial as a suicide gank. Quote:My other thoughts on the matter would be that the rebalanced Transport ships could help out in this matter, the cloaked hauler could be given more cargo capacity as it is already immune from this problem, and the heavy transport ships could be buffed significantly to make them viable to be used in high sec. God no. The very restrictive cargo hold of blockade runners is there to balance out the massive advantage they have overGǪ wellGǪ everything, really. The transport ships are already viable, just not as bulk haulers. Quote:Right now a maximum tanked Impel with only 5000m3 capacity can be taken out by 10 T1 catalysts costing 20 million, or 6 T2 catalysts costing 60 million. So? Both 10 and 6 is more than 1. That's no reason to change anything. I'm not going to argue about balance, but all I can say is I'm looking here at the numbers right now and it looks very profitable to be a suicide ganker. I would probably recommend the Talos though instead of a catalyst for most heavy ships as Emma mentioned, this is simply because it is much easier as you only need a few of them to take out most ships.
If it is so profitable, get some friends together and go do it. My limited understanding (since I don't Suicide gank), is that it takes a decent amount of time and effort to gather enough suicide gankers to take out Orca's and Freighters. This is also why players utilize brutix & Talos gangs to help minimize the efforts needed to accomplish the attack! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19418
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 17:28:00 -
[38] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:I'm not going to argue about balance, but all I can say is I'm looking here at the numbers right now and it looks very profitable to be a suicide ganker. It it was really profitable, it would be very popular and you'd see a lot of it. Instead, it's very rare and only a select few (highly organised) groups engage in it.
That rather suggests that either your numbers are wrong somewhere, or they're simply not telling the whole truth. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
42
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 18:16:00 -
[39] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:I'm not going to argue about balance, but all I can say is I'm looking here at the numbers right now and it looks very profitable to be a suicide ganker. It it was really profitable, it would be very popular and you'd see a lot of it. Instead, it's very rare and only a select few (highly organised) groups engage in it. That rather suggests that either your numbers are wrong somewhere, or they're simply not telling the whole truth. My calculations are laid out in the OP, so feel free to correct any errors. Also the data on Concord Response time was taken from your article. Obviously the end results should be taken with a fair margin for error, given that all the ships will not be in optimal, and resists will not always be equally balanced. Also my numbers did not include overheating or rigs. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
3530
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 18:24:00 -
[40] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Tippia wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:I'm not going to argue about balance, but all I can say is I'm looking here at the numbers right now and it looks very profitable to be a suicide ganker. It it was really profitable, it would be very popular and you'd see a lot of it. Instead, it's very rare and only a select few (highly organised) groups engage in it. That rather suggests that either your numbers are wrong somewhere, or they're simply not telling the whole truth. My calculations are laid out in the OP, so feel free to correct any errors. Also the data on Concord Response time was taken from your article. Obviously the end results should be taken with a fair margin for error, given that all the ships will not be in optimal, and resists will not always be equally balanced. Also my numbers did not include overheating or rigs.
When looking at how profitable something in game is, most players look at isk/hr. This is a measure of the efforts involved in making that isk, and there is generally a lot of effort involved in setting up a 30 man gank squad.
|
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19419
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 18:32:00 -
[41] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:My calculations are laid out in the OP, so feel free to correct any errors. Your main error is that you try to make claims about profitability when all you do is look at a single cost. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Lucie Devlin
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
6
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 19:14:00 -
[42] - Quote
Read www.minerbumoing.com. Have you ever seen an article in which 29 agents ganked anything? Didn't think so. That is a lot of people to organise to undertake a pretty niche activity. There is your mistake. It's too hard in terms of logistics. |
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
NEW ORDER DEATH DEALERS CODE.
237
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 19:18:00 -
[43] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:Angelica Dreamstar wrote:Serene Repose wrote:Hi! I'm a hauler! No! I won't haul your stuff! Do the math...oh, someone already did!
When the numbers say "X", and the ones who can control the numbers say "WHY?" all that's left for enlightened self-interest's sake is to BOYCOTT. Do like me. Don't. Don't mine. Don't haul. Don't manufacture. Let the gank squads play it out. Let the market run dry. Let it all become the zero sum game it's inclined to be.
When the gankers can buy no more ships, since there's no more ships to buy. So what? And, guess what. If they try to take up the slack themelves, GANK THEM.
Let's memorialize how long this battle lasts. We could have a pile of Caracals in Jita commemorating the day the market went to ZERO.
Thenk yew beddy much. You imply that people are ants only capable of doing one thing and one thing only. People have and can create mining and industry alts if they need to. You and thousand others could stop and all that would happen is that others take your place... and hopefully these others are people who don't play victims... unlike you and your kind. Frankly, I see no such implication, and only see you mischaracterizing what was said. The only reason for this that makes sense is "your kind" is a ganker afraid Serene's idea would work, and YOU'D have to stop being the ant and find something ELSE to do. How will you identify the ganker industry alts from other players? I guess you could start ganking anyone with a code pledge in their bio, but that hasn't gone over well with the mining populace in the past. Plus the fast that the majority (around 90%) of the cost of one of our catalysts fits is the t2 guns, which while I don't have the numbers on, I assume the limiting factor in production is materials produced in null (please correct me if I'm wrong on this). High sec miners are welcome to take on nullsec cartels, I will even encourage the action while I grab popcorn. Hm, I wonder what the actual mineral production from code compliant miners is at this point. I'm sure its still relatively small, but growing. Multiboxers seem to like us in my limited experience.
Lucie Devlin wrote:Read www.minerbumoing.com. Have you ever seen an article in which 29 agents ganked anything? Didn't think so. That is a lot of people to organise to undertake a pretty niche activity. There is your mistake. It's too hard in terms of logistics. We got over 15 last night so hopefully we'll get there (20 something in fleet including scouts). There's some groups that can actually organize that 20-50 people for efficient JF ganks. New player resources: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Main_Page - General information http://www.evealtruist.com/p/know-your-enemy.html - Learn to PvP http://belligerentundesirables.com/ - Safaris, Awoxes, Ganking and Griefing-á |
Abyss Azizora
Astro Industrial Technologies
75
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 19:28:00 -
[44] - Quote
*sigh* The one and only solution to suicide ganking is to make all loot dropped by the victim to be confiscated by concord. (In other words nothing drops from suicide ganked ships.) This allows for suicide ganks to still be used against enemies and people who pissed someone off, and the target loses the ship/fittings/cargo, while preventing it from being profitable to do. (Which even CCP admits is how it's supposed to be.)
There, now you have a mechanic that works, but isn't horribly lopsided. You can still suicide gank that moron carrying 2000 PLEX in a shuttle and get a killmail and bragging rights, and the guy loses all 2000 PLEX, but you don't get to make it a career doing it. |
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
720
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 20:21:00 -
[45] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:Hi! I'm a hauler! No! I won't haul your stuff! Do the math...oh, someone already did!
When the numbers say "X", and the ones who can control the numbers say "WHY?" all that's left for enlightened self-interest's sake is to BOYCOTT. Do like me. Don't. Don't mine. Don't haul. Don't manufacture. Let the gank squads play it out. Let the market run dry. Let it all become the zero sum game it's inclined to be.
When the gankers can buy no more ships, since there's no more ships to buy. So what? And, guess what. If they try to take up the slack themelves, GANK THEM.
Let's memorialize how long this battle lasts. We could have a pile of Caracals in Jita commemorating the day the market went to ZERO.
Thenk yew beddy much.
Half the gankers mine , manufacture and trade. They are out to stop their competition and your boycott is playing into their hands. Is it their fault that they understand that profits will go up if competition declines? Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85 |
admiral root
Red Galaxy Disband.
818
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 20:22:00 -
[46] - Quote
Abyss Azizora wrote:*sigh* The one and only solution to suicide ganking ...
You're implying that suicide ganking is a problem, but it's not. No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff |
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
1132
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 20:29:00 -
[47] - Quote
Abyss Azizora wrote:*sigh* The one and only solution to suicide ganking is to make all loot dropped by the victim to be confiscated by concord. (In other words nothing drops from suicide ganked ships.) This allows for suicide ganks to still be used against enemies and people who pissed someone off, and the target loses the ship/fittings/cargo, while preventing it from being profitable to do. (Which even CCP admits is how it's supposed to be.)
There, now you have a mechanic that works, but isn't horribly lopsided. You can still suicide gank that moron carrying 2000 PLEX in a shuttle and get a killmail and bragging rights, and the guy loses all 2000 PLEX, but you don't get to make it a career doing it.
Things like this, as well as the OP, can be boiled down to the following:
"How dare those gankers make a profit!"
That's kind of selfish don't you think?
"Grr Kimmi-á Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide
www.eve-radio.com -áJoin Eve Radio channel in game! |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
43
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 20:37:00 -
[48] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:
Finally, I had a look at the Orca, and to me it doesn't seem balanced, although I was wondering what other people's opinions are on this. The Orca can reach around 230k EHP.
Specious. How did you arrive at that 230 K ? My Orca is solidly at all level V's including core skills, decked out with shield extender, invulterability field, and Damage Control II, and it's never above 176,000 EHP. And there ain't nuthin' to get that higher at all. There are many things which allow the Orca higher than 176k, fitted correctly it can push over 300k with no cargo mods. And I am using EFT for this calculation. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
4764
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 20:39:00 -
[49] - Quote
I've never understand the hate against making a profit from ganking.
EVE is a simulated world with simulated crime. Sometimes crime does pay.
Without interesting events like crime and other such things (like risk), why play a game in the 1st place? For me, part of the game is defeating the risks and dangers and being able to be smug about it in local (like I was in local in niarja back in 2006 when I survived a gank of um tanked to hell iteron 5 because i was carrying an officer mod worth 200 mil, it wasn't even a good one lol). |
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
1134
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 20:43:00 -
[50] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:of um tanked to hell iteron 5 ...snip... it wasn't even a good one lol.
I agree, the Iteron V, like all Gallente ships is not good.
Caldari State Best State.
"Grr Kimmi-á Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide
www.eve-radio.com -áJoin Eve Radio channel in game! |
|
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
43
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 20:46:00 -
[51] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:My calculations are laid out in the OP, so feel free to correct any errors. Your main error is that you try to make claims about profitability when all you do is look at a single cost. Yes, I am simply looking the cost of ships involved, which is a crude measurement of profit. The real question though is how safe should high sec actually be, and I am ambivalent towards either as long as it isn't ever 100% safe. These calculation were simply meant to show how efficient purely in terms of isk cost it is to take out ships hauling in high sec, and they also show that high sec is not safe at all, even when hauling in an Orca. |
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
1135
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 20:52:00 -
[52] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:The real question though is how safe should high sec actually be, and I am ambivalent towards either as long as it isn't ever 100% safe.
No absolutes.
It is one thing to say an Orca got blown up. No one cares.
It's another thing to say every Orca gets blown up. At that point there is a problem.
However, until we are at a point where every Orca, Charon, Obelisk, etc gets blown up there is no problem and high sec is safe enough.
"Grr Kimmi-á Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide
www.eve-radio.com -áJoin Eve Radio channel in game! |
EvEa Deva
Forum Alt Retort
451
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 21:02:00 -
[53] - Quote
Move away from Jita, Amarr and where ever them other 2 trade hubs are in hippie space.
And train to overheat your tanks |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1765
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 21:05:00 -
[54] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:Quote:To me it seems that in this case the isk put on the line by the gankers, is out of balance with the amount of damage the gankers can do. I wondered what were other peoples opinions on this. Cost is not a balancing factor.
Oh come on. Of course it is and should be a balancing factor. It just shouldn't be the only balancing factor. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
2502
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 21:08:00 -
[55] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Tippia wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:Quote:To me it seems that in this case the isk put on the line by the gankers, is out of balance with the amount of damage the gankers can do. I wondered what were other peoples opinions on this. Cost is not a balancing factor. Oh come on. Of course it is and should be a balancing factor. It just shouldn't be the only balancing factor.
Obviously.
The problem comes when people think that they should not have lost a ship, just because it was expensive. Especially when they were killed by the concentrated efforts of a dozen or more people.
Which is the issue in the first place. That some people believe that their pricetag should be their tank, and they shouldn't have to fit anything else. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Deano McCandless
The McCandless Clan Turing Tested
16
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 21:25:00 -
[56] - Quote
Should baseball bats cost the same as Ferraris?
My ex seems to think so.
All Dead All Dead But I should not grieve In time it comes to everyone All Dead All Dead But in hope I breathe Of course I don't believe |
BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
42
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 21:28:00 -
[57] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:I wondered what are the thoughts of people on the current state of balance with regards to suicide ganking and concord response time. Thanks to this excellent article posted by Tippia... Stopped right there. I've never read a post yet where Tippia actually agrees with anyone, anytime on any subject... |
Kirsi Kirjasto
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 23:00:00 -
[58] - Quote
BrundleMeth wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:I wondered what are the thoughts of people on the current state of balance with regards to suicide ganking and concord response time. Thanks to this excellent article posted by Tippia... Stopped right there. I've never read a post yet where Tippia actually agrees with anyone, anytime on any subject...
Nope. He just likes pointing out flawed assumptions behind stupid suggestions for nonexistent problems. In as few words as possible. |
BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 23:21:00 -
[59] - Quote
Kirsi Kirjasto wrote:BrundleMeth wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:I wondered what are the thoughts of people on the current state of balance with regards to suicide ganking and concord response time. Thanks to this excellent article posted by Tippia... Stopped right there. I've never read a post yet where Tippia actually agrees with anyone, anytime on any subject... Nope. He just likes pointing out flawed assumptions behind stupid suggestions for nonexistent problems. In as few words as possible. So as I said, never agrees with anyone... |
Pix Severus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
345
|
Posted - 2014.02.14 23:23:00 -
[60] - Quote
I speed-tank my Badger.
It's my favourite hauler because it's just so damn fast, I swear I've outrun shuttles in this thing and I'm not even joking. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |