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Frying Doom
3633
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Posted - 2014.02.17 06:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
I stopped following the forums during the whole EvE/Somer Blink fiasco.
During that time the CSM made excuses and hid, and really did not do anything.
I know the minutes were unbelievably late, due to CCP Dolan.
But has CSM8 managed to achieve anything? Is the voting system fixed so people will be able to abstain in the next election?
Were any of last years bugs ironed out?
What else have they managed to do that players have actually seen rather than been told about by CCP? Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!! |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
2244
|
Posted - 2014.02.17 07:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
Nobody is going to vote for you. You contribute about as much as benign cancer. Stop posting. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1429
|
Posted - 2014.02.17 08:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
SMA loot drop bug got fixed.
Also...
Varius Xeral wrote:Nobody is going to vote for you. You contribute about as much as benign cancer. Stop posting.
^^ this I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
3273
|
Posted - 2014.02.17 12:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Varius Xeral wrote:Nobody is going to vote for you. You contribute about as much as benign cancer. Stop posting. ^^ this
Are you kidding me? Everyone on CSM loves Doom's posts. They are one of the few benefits of an otherwise largely thankless job.
Never stop posting, Doom. Never stop posting! Like any honest politician, "My door is always open, and my hand is always out" |
Snow Axe
Atwater Capital
1461
|
Posted - 2014.02.17 13:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
Well, did they? Don't leave everyone hanging! "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Doris Dents
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
375
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Posted - 2014.02.17 14:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
One guy made a bunch of excuses for the Somer thing and told us to stop complaining on the forums about it. Apart from that I haven't noticed this CSM. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
13896
|
Posted - 2014.02.17 22:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
Doris Dents wrote:One guy made a bunch of excuses for the Somer thing and told us to stop complaining on the forums about it. Apart from that I haven't noticed this CSM.
Being the one CSM rep that you noticed all year will rank as one of my proudest accomplishments.
1 Kings 12:11
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Alekseyev Karrde
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
1387
|
Posted - 2014.02.18 08:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ripard wrote a *lot* of blog posts.
"Alekseyev Karrde: mercenary of my heart." -Arydanika, Voices from the Void
Hero of the CSM Noir./Noir. Academy Recruiting: www.noirmercs.com |
Tronjay the'3rd
IGNOTUS AGENDA Cult of War
53
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Posted - 2014.02.18 16:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
We got crap nerfbat patches besides a few and most notable mechanisc that need fix were not fixed.....AGAIN!
CSM8? ....Who?
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Sun Tzu-á-¬ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
13905
|
Posted - 2014.02.18 18:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tronjay the'3rd wrote:We got crap nerfbat patches besides a few and most notable mechanisc that need fix were not fixed.....AGAIN!
CSM8? ....Who?
The guys who sold out to the goon blob RMT cartel, remember.
1 Kings 12:11
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Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
2512
|
Posted - 2014.02.18 18:30:00 -
[11] - Quote
csm7 abstains, less than one percent of the vote
including the option is a waste of time |
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
1000
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Posted - 2014.02.18 22:37:00 -
[12] - Quote
I'm looking at the caliber of people running for CSM 9, and I'm thinking that they wouldn't bother if CSM 8 (among others) hadn't shown what could be done.
I mean, what are you asking for, fireworks? Marquee accomplishments? I voted for 14 people to do pretty much what CSM 8 did, got most of them, and was not disappointed. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
26
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Posted - 2014.02.19 03:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
Mal and a few others have been great at trolling the forums instead of helping but other than that I haven't seen nothing that affects me as I totally go solo pos bashing for sma loot drops |
Ali Aras
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
554
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 03:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
If you solo, do you use Mobile Depots at all? They're very convenient for swapping out probes and cloak for other fits, especially if you want to use wormholes as a sort of galactic fast-travel around gatecamps. http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com -- my blog |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
421
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 13:13:00 -
[15] - Quote
Truthfully, the CSM did a decent job this round - a lot of it not seen in the foreground.
As for "bugs ironed out" and the like - They ask: CCP codes. They can't "tell" CCP what to do, they can only ask but what they have been involved with, within the constraints they have; they did a decent job. (and to be honest - surprisingly so) |
Korvin
Shadow Kingdom Best Alliance
557
|
Posted - 2014.02.20 09:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
EVE is still not a free to play and have no imbalanced pay to win stuff...
Yet another year of success in a constant battle of greed vs sanity. __________________________________ Member of CSM 4&5 ... &8 |
XavierVE
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
239
|
Posted - 2014.02.20 14:52:00 -
[17] - Quote
I think your question is fundamentally flawed. The question isn't whether CSM 8 did anything, but has the CSM process in general contributed positively to the development of EVE? Not just CSM 8, but all the prior ones as well.
I'd say no, personally. It's a useful dog and pony show for CCP's PR, but in terms of actually getting anything positive done? Not really outside of very small niche projects.
I have a hard time believing in a process that elects a group of people who can't argue Fozzie out of interceptor nullification when they know that the nature of server ticks would make them uncatchable. Things such as this are basic elements of the game, for developers and CSM members to not understand how game-breakingly bad that change was is a sad testament to the failure of the entity in general. To then have the issue addressed with an effective yet ham-handed nerf to agility was another failure on the CSM as a collective.
CSM 8 would probably like to point to small issues such as the SMA loot drop fixes as an "accomplishment." It's hard to put much value in something whose greatest accomplishment is getting CCP to be slightly less lazy than usual. The fact that the CSM is so powerless to tout this as a "win" for the CSM is a great illustration of how irrelevant and powerless the CSM actually are. Which is nothing personal against this particular CSM grouping, but again, points to the irrelevance of the entire process overall.
Advocates for the CSM process have deluded themselves into believing that the CSM did something about the mess that was Incarna, but in reality, the pay2win controversy surrounding that expansion was addressed by the playerbase rioting and mass unsubbing. CSM just yelled a bit amongst the noise.
Picking on a CSM here or there is just rather petty, the entire process is at best irrelevant. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
13922
|
Posted - 2014.02.20 16:04:00 -
[18] - Quote
XavierVE wrote:I think your question is fundamentally flawed. The question isn't whether CSM 8 did anything, but has the CSM process in general contributed positively to the development of EVE? Not just CSM 8, but all the prior ones as well.
I'd say no, personally. It's a useful dog and pony show for CCP's PR, but in terms of actually getting anything positive done? Not really outside of very small niche projects.
I have a hard time believing in a process that elects a group of people who can't argue Fozzie out of interceptor nullification when they know that the nature of server ticks would make them uncatchable. Things such as this are basic elements of the game, for developers and CSM members to not understand how game-breakingly bad that change was is a sad testament to the failure of the entity in general. To then have the issue addressed with an effective yet ham-handed nerf to agility was another failure on the CSM as a collective.
CSM 8 would probably like to point to small issues such as the SMA loot drop fixes as an "accomplishment." It's hard to put much value in something whose greatest accomplishment is getting CCP to be slightly less lazy than usual. The fact that the CSM is so powerless to tout this as a "win" for the CSM is a great illustration of how irrelevant and powerless the CSM actually are. Which is nothing personal against this particular CSM grouping, but again, points to the irrelevance of the entire process overall.
Advocates for the CSM process have deluded themselves into believing that the CSM did something about the mess that was Incarna, but in reality, the pay2win controversy surrounding that expansion was addressed by the playerbase rioting and mass unsubbing. CSM just yelled a bit amongst the noise.
Picking on a CSM here or there is just rather petty, the entire process is at best irrelevant.
Bullshit like this used to really annoy me, but I now find great comfort in the fact that your own dearly protected ignorance will also ensure that you can't have any effect on the CSM process other than persuading people who are as foolish as yourself to stay out of it as well.
For your support, however unintentional, of the CSM process, I sincerely thank you, XavierVE
1 Kings 12:11
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
13922
|
Posted - 2014.02.20 16:06:00 -
[19] - Quote
Agondray wrote:Mal and a few others have been great at trolling the forums instead of helping but other than that I haven't seen nothing that affects me as I totally go solo pos bashing for sma loot drops
That was an "as well as" not an "instead of".
However, I am grateful for your recognition and kind words.
1 Kings 12:11
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XavierVE
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
239
|
Posted - 2014.02.20 16:27:00 -
[20] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Bullshit like this used to really annoy me, but I now find great comfort in the fact that your own dearly protected ignorance will also ensure that you can't have any effect on the CSM process other than persuading people who are as foolish as yourself to stay out of it as well.
For your support, however unintentional, of the CSM process, I sincerely thank you, XavierVE
Yes, you are certainly too E-Cool for criticism, dear sir.
I suppose I should have said the CSM is ineffective at most everything... save the bloating of internet ego :)
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Lady Areola Fappington
New Order Logistics CODE.
1172
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Posted - 2014.02.20 16:38:00 -
[21] - Quote
The CSM is useful for what they do. The problem is some people have a skewed notion as to what the CSMs job is.
I'd much rather have a player chosen focus group (CSMs most basic job), over CCP cherry-picking a group in order to forward their own bad ideas under the color of customer consensus. The risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP). |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
424
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 10:45:00 -
[22] - Quote
XavierVE wrote:I think your question is fundamentally flawed. The question isn't whether CSM 8 did anything, but has the CSM process in general contributed positively to the development of EVE? Not just CSM 8, but all the prior ones as well.
I'd say no, personally. It's a useful dog and pony show for CCP's PR, but in terms of actually getting anything positive done? Not really outside of very small niche projects.
I have a hard time believing in a process that elects a group of people who can't argue Fozzie out of interceptor nullification when they know that the nature of server ticks would make them uncatchable. Things such as this are basic elements of the game, for developers and CSM members to not understand how game-breakingly bad that change was is a sad testament to the failure of the entity in general. To then have the issue addressed with an effective yet ham-handed nerf to agility was another failure on the CSM as a collective.
CSM 8 would probably like to point to small issues such as the SMA loot drop fixes as an "accomplishment." It's hard to put much value in something whose greatest accomplishment is getting CCP to be slightly less lazy than usual. The fact that the CSM is so powerless to tout this as a "win" for the CSM is a great illustration of how irrelevant and powerless the CSM actually are. Which is nothing personal against this particular CSM grouping, but again, points to the irrelevance of the entire process overall.
Advocates for the CSM process have deluded themselves into believing that the CSM did something about the mess that was Incarna, but in reality, the pay2win controversy surrounding that expansion was addressed by the playerbase rioting and mass unsubbing. CSM just yelled a bit amongst the noise.
Picking on a CSM here or there is just rather petty, the entire process is at best irrelevant.
A bit cynical but also understandable. I went through my own annoyance with the CSM a while back - especially when analyzing the results and statements from both the CSM, CCP and time-lining it. An earlier CSM.
What I would suggest is that you do the same with this CSM's history. Go through and look at what the CSM has talked about and where CCP has made statements that they worked with the CSM and ... was the result.
IF you choose to, I think you may find your attitude shifting a bit closer to what I posted. If you don't, well that's not too shocking for EVE players who "know what they know already!"
Honestly - give it a shot. It's a couple hours digging around this website is all.
There's validation from CCP that the CSM was the source/catalysts for certain decisions and that was surprising to see. |
El Space Mariachi
Love Squad Black Legion.
41
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Posted - 2014.02.23 00:27:00 -
[23] - Quote
XavierVE wrote:I think your question is fundamentally flawed. The question isn't whether CSM 8 did anything, but has the CSM process in general contributed positively to the development of EVE? Not just CSM 8, but all the prior ones as well.
I'd say no, personally. It's a useful dog and pony show for CCP's PR, but in terms of actually getting anything positive done? Not really outside of very small niche projects.
I have a hard time believing in a process that elects a group of people who can't argue Fozzie out of interceptor nullification when they know that the nature of server ticks would make them uncatchable. Things such as this are basic elements of the game, for developers and CSM members to not understand how game-breakingly bad that change was is a sad testament to the failure of the entity in general. To then have the issue addressed with an effective yet ham-handed nerf to agility was another failure on the CSM as a collective.
CSM 8 would probably like to point to small issues such as the SMA loot drop fixes as an "accomplishment." It's hard to put much value in something whose greatest accomplishment is getting CCP to be slightly less lazy than usual. The fact that the CSM is so powerless to tout this as a "win" for the CSM is a great illustration of how irrelevant and powerless the CSM actually are. Which is nothing personal against this particular CSM grouping, but again, points to the irrelevance of the entire process overall.
Advocates for the CSM process have deluded themselves into believing that the CSM did something about the mess that was Incarna, but in reality, the pay2win controversy surrounding that expansion was addressed by the playerbase rioting and mass unsubbing. CSM just yelled a bit amongst the noise.
Picking on a CSM here or there is just rather petty, the entire process is at best irrelevant.
same . |
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
1007
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 02:13:00 -
[24] - Quote
XavierVE wrote:I have a hard time believing in a process that elects a group of people who can't argue Fozzie out of interceptor nullification when they know that the nature of server ticks would make them uncatchable. Things such as this are basic elements of the game, for developers and CSM members to not understand how game-breakingly bad that change was is a sad testament to the failure of the entity in general. To then have the issue addressed with an effective yet ham-handed nerf to agility was another failure on the CSM as a collective.
You mean, the interceptor change that was sourced from, and supported by, the community? (Except, obviously, for you.)
XavierVE wrote:Advocates for the CSM process have deluded themselves into believing that the CSM did something about the mess that was Incarna, but in reality, the pay2win controversy surrounding that expansion was addressed by the playerbase rioting and mass unsubbing. CSM just yelled a bit amongst the noise.
But since CCP came to its senses it's basically been going down the list of things that CSMs 4, 5 and 6 had spelled out as necessary and desirable changes. So while it's true that an advisory panel is incapable of ~forcing~ any outcome, it's also true that once their collective advice was heeded the game improved rapidly. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
XavierVE
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
244
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 03:40:00 -
[25] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:You mean, the interceptor change that was sourced from, and supported by, the community? (Except, obviously, for you.)
"Sourced from the community" - One guy had a dumb idea that Fozzie didn't really think about very deeply in order to push out some lazy development. Sure.
Which then was "fixed" with a ham-handed agility nerf in the very next point release. And why was that? Because it was exactly what people like me said would happen (and there were dozens of us nothing this prior to Rubicon)... that the nature of server ticks would render gangs of interceptors uncatchable while travelling in null and would become FOTM to the detriment of the small gang meta.
And it did, without any question.
But the CSM either could not realize this would happen, did not care, or were not listened to. Either way, the equation results in irrelevance at best.
Quote:But since CCP came to its senses it's basically been going down the list of things that CSMs 4, 5 and 6 had spelled out as necessary and desirable changes. So while it's true that an advisory panel is incapable of ~forcing~ any outcome, it's also true that once their collective advice was heeded the game improved rapidly.
It is hard to argue that the game has improved rapidly since the Fourth CSM or that CSM advice is listened to in general. Certainly the CSM did not advise CCP to implement Incarna in the way it has, certainly the CSM was much in favor of the mooted POS revamps CCP themselves had put forward years ago. When something as minor as the CSM 8 minutes themselves are beyond an afterthought for CCP, it's hard to find any sense in an argument that CCP values or remotely cares about their advice.
And there's an argument to be made that CCP really shouldn't care about their advice, hence the surveys they send out to the playerbase. Which are probably a better source of information than a politicized micro-focus group. |
Frying Doom
3639
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 12:13:00 -
[26] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:Nobody is going to vote for you. You contribute about as much as benign cancer. Stop posting. I would never run for the CSM and honestly atm I have not got enough time to read the forums, let alone run in an election.
Unfortunately I may even be to busy this year to give Trebor hell, during the election.
And while I may give them all hell, Trebor especially and Malcanis copped it as well this year, I frankly don't have the time for a good conspiracy theory this year. Well unless they delay the elections enough.
So thank you for your hard work, even though I missed it all and hopefully I will get time to abuse the new CSM in time. :) Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!! |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
13994
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 15:51:00 -
[27] - Quote
XavierVE wrote: It is hard to argue that the game has improved rapidly since the Fourth CSM or that CSM advice is listened to in general. Certainly the CSM did not advise CCP to implement Incarna in the way it has, certainly the CSM was much in favor of the mooted POS revamps CCP themselves had put forward years ago. When something as minor as the CSM 8 minutes themselves are beyond an afterthought for CCP, it's hard to find any sense in an argument that CCP values or remotely cares about their advice.
And there's an argument to be made that CCP really shouldn't care about their advice, hence the surveys they send out to the playerbase. Which are probably a better source of information than a politicized micro-focus group.
You should compare the list of CSM proposals to CCP with what got implemented. I think that cold hard facts might surprise you.
As for the minutes, your analysis of CCP apologising for taking so long with the minutes and implementing a new process to ensure that they're turned around more quickly as proof that they "don't remotely care" gives us an interesting insight into your thought, if that's really the word I want, processes.
1 Kings 12:11
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rodyas
tie fighters inc
1322
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 17:07:00 -
[28] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:
I frankly don't have the time for a good conspiracy theory this year. Well unless they delay the elections enough.
Are the kangaroos acting up again down there? C'mon Australia isn't gonna pass, easier access to a gun, legislation any time soon. Should always have time for a good conspiracy theory. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Balder Verdandi
Czerka. WHY so Seri0Us
217
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 04:12:00 -
[29] - Quote
I think a lot of players don't understand the CSM, it's purpose, or the fact that their hands are tied by the NDA they have to sign.
To be fair, I think the CSM needs to be a bit more available to the player base. You can't do it all on forums. You folks need to use TwitchTV, YouTube, Facebook, something to get out there and talk to the players. We should have Q&A sessions where we can find out more about what you're doing to help the community, what you're presenting to CCP, what ideas you've created since becoming part of the CSM.
What needs to happen is the CSM needs to clear away as much of the grey areas as possible. I think this is why many people were upset about the minutes not being published. The lines of communication aren't as clear as they'd like, and it can be easily misunderstood that CCP is interfering with the CSM and a lot of people were upset by this misunderstanding.
Second, CCP needs to be a bit less restrictive with the NDA. Many players want to help fix the stuff in Eve that is broken, or in some cases has been broken for years. I can understand some of the upgrades we've seen were needed (ship models is a good example; I love the new ship models). The problem is there are players complaining about corp roles and POS fixes for the better part of five years. We've heard the complaints about the fiasco with the inventory UI for over a year after it was rolled out. We're still hearing complaints about the "new launcher". How long has that been in production?
We've heard from CCP that "It's in the works. Gäó" too many times. We've heard from the CSM that they know there is something happening but can't talk about it because the NDA prevents them.
The player base wants to hear more from both CCP and the CSM, and while I understand there is some tech data that can't be discussed, you can find a way to address both the internal and external concerns at the same time.
Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"! Player Owned Station fix dated back to 2006!
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XavierVE
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
250
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Posted - 2014.03.06 16:13:00 -
[30] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:You should compare the list of CSM proposals to CCP with what got implemented. I think that cold hard facts might surprise you.
Only if I were prone to ignore the massive amount of suggestions that were not implemented.
Let's say I walk outside, and I see a shiny blue plane flying East. It leaves the same time each day, going in the same direction. If I look to the sky and yell "Fly east!", am I making the plane fly east... despite the fact that I yelled "fly west!" four times at it prior, and it ignored me and flew east anyways? *** hoc ergo propter hoc
Malcanis wrote:As for the minutes, your analysis of CCP apologising for taking so long with the minutes and implementing a new process to ensure that they're turned around more quickly as proof that they "don't remotely care" gives us an interesting insight into your thought, if that's really the word I want, processes.
CCP apologizing for taking so long with your minutes is akin to me apologizing to my wife when I don't put much thought into how she wants the toilet seat left. Sometimes people use words to mollify others without actually giving much care towards the actual problem.
The reality of the world is that sometimes people say things and apologize for things just to relieve a potential headache rather than out of actually caring about what they're saying. If you don't understand this element of social guile, I'd recommend a solid trip to a specialist that is well-practiced in the diagnosis and treatment of Asperger's Syndrome.
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