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Vageena Clatoris
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
6
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Posted - 2014.02.17 20:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ok maybe its me but, is the amount of insurance out of line with ship value ?
Take for example a fenrir, circa 297 mill platinum insurance for a payout just over 900mill yet eve-central shows the cheapest fenrir is 1.2 billion ish isk.
It appears some ships insurance reflects current market value, however, most ships insurance payouts seem out of date.
Unless im missing a skill which increases insurance payout ?
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Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1794
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Posted - 2014.02.17 20:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
ship insurance is based on its value in t1 minerals. non-t1 ships have significant costs associated with moon goo and PI materials that are not reflected in the insurance payout. Insurance is not intended to be significant for non-t1 ships. You weren't even talking about a t2 ship, the fenrir is a t1 ship, but the mineral cost does not reflect the build cost, research cost, or other opportunity costs that are priced into the final value.
Most experienced players never insure any of their ships, except specifically when going out on a pvp endeavor where they expect to lose them, or if its a t1 ship that they frequently pvp with but might not expect to lose on a given day. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Origin. Black Legion.
432
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Posted - 2014.02.17 21:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
Your name is an incomplete sex-ed class.
I can dig that. No sig. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2039
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Posted - 2014.02.17 22:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
Batelle wrote:ship insurance is based on its value in t1 minerals. non-t1 ships have significant costs associated with moon goo and PI materials that are not reflected in the insurance payout. Insurance is not intended to be significant for non-t1 ships. You weren't even talking about a t2 ship, the fenrir is a t1 ship, but the mineral cost does not reflect the build cost, research cost, or other opportunity costs that are priced into the final value.
This, though that's not the whole story. CCP only periodically updates mineral values (for reasons that should be obvious to anyone who has played this game for any amount of time; insurance fraud would be a past time if it were dynamic).
In the case of a Fenrir... well, it's a capital ship, made of capital construction parts. The parts themselves are made from minerals. I'm assuming -- though I've never bothered to check -- that the mineral cost of caps for insurance purposes is based on perfect blueprints all the way down the chain (ship and construction component). That's an awful lot of ME research and no one in their right mind would do that much. Right now, with ME 100 component prints, I'm showing a build cost of 1.08bil isk and a sale price of 1.29bil, so about a 210 mil margin. Which isn't bad, but it also takes almost a month of line-days to produce which makes it only so-so for serious producers, profiting only 316k isk/line-hour.
So yeah. There's that too. |
Vageena Clatoris
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
6
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Posted - 2014.02.17 22:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
Thanks for the posts so far, very informative.
My point was, insurance on a providence is only circa 200-300m off what a replacement costs. Insurance pays out just over 1 bill however replacement is roughly 1.2 bill
A fenrir pays out on insurance just over 900mill however replacement from market is 1.2 to 1.3 bill, seems off ?
Also a hyperion on payout is just over 110 mill however replacement from market is higher.
I appreciate insurance is always going to be out from replacement, but it seems the gap is widening ? how often does ccp review insurance and current ship market value ? |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1796
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Posted - 2014.02.17 22:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
Insurance doesn't care what the ship itself costs. If the fenrir pays out less its because it uses less minerals or cheaper minerals based on CCPs prices for minerals. Different capital ships use components/minerals in different amounts.
Keep in mind, that you still get 40% of the patinum value without paying for any insurance at all. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Vageena Clatoris
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
6
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Posted - 2014.02.17 22:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
Thanks all, was a newb question I know but appreciate the responses |
Tarsus Zateki
Viziam Amarr Empire
897
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Posted - 2014.02.17 23:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
If you expect to lose the ship sometime within the insurance period, there is no reason to not take Platinum insurance on it. The insurance payout taken on its own is effectively free money. But only if you don't expect the ship to live through the entire insurance term. You asked me once, what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world. |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
251
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Posted - 2014.02.18 13:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
Vageena Clatoris wrote:Also a hyperion on payout is just over 110 mill however replacement from market is higher. That raises an interesting point... I haven't checked insurance costs since tiericide but with the changes to mineral requirements on Tier 1 and Tier 2 BS being made as Extra Materials and therefore effectively destroyed when the ship is made, are we going to end up with a situation where the Dominix (for example) is going to be worth less in terms of insurance than other ships simply because it was once Tier 1? |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
2786
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Posted - 2014.02.18 13:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
It's only really worth insuring BCs and BSes, I guess. I think BCs give the best return on insurance, at least in my experience. Oh god. |
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Bishop Gudmund
Atomic Astrometrics Inc.
0
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Posted - 2014.02.19 13:17:00 -
[11] - Quote
Case in point.
Dominix Tier 1: Sale price: ~180,000,000 ISK Dominix Tier 1: Insurance cover platinium payout: 67,026,900 ISK
This is ~37% of the current market value. Briefly looking at the manufacturing costs gives me a 175,000,000 ISK raw material cost...
Imo the insurance prices need to be updated to current market averages. This could be a running monthly average for instance. This might not work for T2+ ships if the volumes traded are low, but is surely practical for T1 ships. It would restore some sense to the insurance system.
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
381
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Posted - 2014.02.19 13:49:00 -
[12] - Quote
Bishop Gudmund wrote:Case in point.
Dominix Tier 1: Sale price: ~180,000,000 ISK Dominix Tier 1: Insurance cover platinium payout: 67,026,900 ISK
This is ~37% of the current market value. Briefly looking at the manufacturing costs gives me a 175,000,000 ISK raw material cost...
Imo the insurance prices need to be updated to current market averages. This could be a running monthly average for instance. This might not work for T2+ ships if the volumes traded are low, but is surely practical for T1 ships. It would restore some sense to the insurance system.
eve had this.
when a ship goes (or is) fotm it will have a higher average price. In these golden times it was not uncommon for people like me to write off rigs and dispose of the ship if by some miracle it lived to see insurance run out soon. Had a few ships on last day of policy I just undocked and sd'd. Even with rig loss I made out even or even a profit. Even made own rigs to make them cheaper to lose.
Or you had the more honest thieves who went for insurance fraud. Make/buy ships and blow them up in some way as fast as possible. You of course picked good ships that had a return for this.
Also whats going to be in the average? You can't spit in jita without seeing many ships on market. Go to a desolate low sec system and stocks not that good. And whoever put it there is not scared to raise the price. When your choice is to go hump across low sec to a station with better price a few extra mil is written off as convenience payment.
Don't get me started on 0.0. I and many homes I was in had varying definitions of what corp discount was. Mine was they could go pound sand when I could pay a jf to haul the crap at 250 isk/m3 and still have it at better price.
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Bishop Gudmund
Atomic Astrometrics Inc.
0
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Posted - 2014.02.19 14:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
A running average of all trades.
However, the payout might be limited to 75% of current market value to prevent the abuse you describe.
37% return is too low. |
Huttan Funaila
Terminal Radioactivity Toxic Alliance
372
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Posted - 2014.02.19 15:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
Bishop Gudmund wrote: This is ~37% of the current market value. Briefly looking at the manufacturing costs gives me a 175,000,000 ISK raw material cost...
"Extra materials" are not used in the calc for insurance. If you remember the battleship revamp a couple of months ago, they went from about 90M in minerals to near 200M each. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
2789
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Posted - 2014.02.19 16:20:00 -
[15] - Quote
Last year I was flying Drakes for a while and I think each one cost me about 90m for a T2 fit+ platinum insurance, which paid out 45m isk. That means for every 2 Drakes lost, you'd get a Drake for free but that also includes the cost of insuring the new Drake for another 45m.
Basically, for every 180m I spent on Drakes, I'd get back 135m in insurance. Oh god. |
Bishop Gudmund
Atomic Astrometrics Inc.
0
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Posted - 2014.02.19 18:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
If I had added my fit plus platinum insurance I would put my loss at 220,000,000. So the insurance payout was only about 30 %.
However, I would keep my complaint focused. If insurance for 3 months cost 25% of the market average, I would be happy to pay - for that market average as a payout. If someone works out how to make money from that, then good luck to them! |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
6299
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Posted - 2014.02.20 22:17:00 -
[17] - Quote
One time bump to fix forum. |
Silent Arthie
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.02.21 01:46:00 -
[18] - Quote
Although this is an extremely cheap ship, the Retriever insurance only covers up to 5 million ISK. However, the actual ship costs around ~28 million ISK. |
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