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Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2943
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 00:44:00 -
[61] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:Where do you get these numbers?
With Fury Cruises and wardens, the RS would get about 1422DPS, assuming you use 3 CN BCUs. Thats paper DPS btw (with lvl V skills), and also the same amount the Navy Typhoon does with 4 BCU + 3 DDA.
Torps and ogres would give you 1973DPS, with horrible projection AND application. Fine, if you insistGǪ
4x Torpedo Launcher II, Scourge Rage torpedoes, 3x Ballistic Control System II GÇó 1115 DPS standard, 1232.3 DPS with two +5 implants; 1449.8 DPS overheated
5x Ogre II or 5x Garde II, 3x Drone Damage Amplifier II GÇó 751.3 DPS (Garde) or 793.3 DPS (Ogre)
That's 2243.1 DPS combined, and if I ran Faction ballistic controls it actually pushes the missile DPS to 1635.6, or 2428.9 DPS combined. I don't think even the Vindicator can approach that... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
1241
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 00:55:00 -
[62] - Quote
In my opinion the question you all should be asking is this:
"Why would I fly a Rattlesnake if I can fly a Golem?"
Consider that for a moment and then answer the OP again. "Grr Kimmi-á Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide
www.eve-radio.com -áJoin Eve Radio channel in game! |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
403
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 00:56:00 -
[63] - Quote
Price? Drones?
I don't know. Why would I fly anything else if I could fly a Golem? |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2943
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 01:01:00 -
[64] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Price? Drones? I don't know. Why would I fly anything else if I could fly a Golem? Golems are overrated... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
297
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 01:03:00 -
[65] - Quote
If it had Typhoon style bonus to explosion velocity and the Domi style drone bonuses to optimal and tracking I would definitely fly one :D Potentially that may swing it from underwhelming to OP though.
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
403
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Posted - 2014.02.24 01:13:00 -
[66] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Price? Drones? I don't know. Why would I fly anything else if I could fly a Golem? Golems are overrated...
I agree. The question rates right up there with why would I fly anything but an Incursus. You fly what you want to fly. A Rattlesnake isn't a Golem, which would be a good enough answer for me.
I'd likely have a Rattlesnake in my hanger right now if I had ever bothered to learn Caldari ships. In 2008 I didn't feel like being from the Space Walmart Empire, I chose Space French instead. My focus has been on Armor and Drones until very recently, but I always liked the idea of Missiles and Drones. The Amarr Dragoon and retooled Prophecy kinda make me feel tingly in the nethers. |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2944
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 01:17:00 -
[67] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:I agree. The question rates right up there with why would I fly anything but an Incursus. You fly what you want to fly. A Rattlesnake isn't a Golem, which would be a good enough answer for me.
I'd likely have a Rattlesnake in my hanger right now if I had ever bothered to learn Caldari ships. In 2008 I didn't feel like being from the Space Walmart Empire, I chose Space French instead. My focus has been on Armor and Drones until very recently, but I always liked the idea of Missiles and Drones. The Amarr Dragoon and retooled Prophecy kinda make me feel tingly in the nethers. The real question is: if you could paint/style your ship in a different color/scheme, what would you fly? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
297
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 01:18:00 -
[68] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Price? Drones? I don't know. Why would I fly anything else if I could fly a Golem? Golems are overrated... I agree. The question rates right up there with why would I fly anything but an Incursus. You fly what you want to fly. A Rattlesnake isn't a Golem, which would be a good enough answer for me. I'd likely have a Rattlesnake in my hanger right now if I had ever bothered to learn Caldari ships. In 2008 I didn't feel like being from the Space Walmart Empire, I chose Space French instead. My focus has been on Armor and Drones until very recently, but I always liked the idea of Missiles and Drones. The Amarr Dragoon and retooled Prophecy kinda make me feel tingly in the nethers.
Prophecy and Drake are probably the two best all round BCs, the Harbinger is a dog in comparison. The only other BC you regularly see is the 'nado and it is limited to use as a suicide gank boat.
Prophecy lacks any missile bonuses so missiles are definitely a secondary weapon ... which actually makes it a good candidate for RLML's. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
403
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 01:22:00 -
[69] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Price? Drones? I don't know. Why would I fly anything else if I could fly a Golem? Golems are overrated... I agree. The question rates right up there with why would I fly anything but an Incursus. You fly what you want to fly. A Rattlesnake isn't a Golem, which would be a good enough answer for me. I'd likely have a Rattlesnake in my hanger right now if I had ever bothered to learn Caldari ships. In 2008 I didn't feel like being from the Space Walmart Empire, I chose Space French instead. My focus has been on Armor and Drones until very recently, but I always liked the idea of Missiles and Drones. The Amarr Dragoon and retooled Prophecy kinda make me feel tingly in the nethers. Prophecy and Drake are probably the two best all round BCs, the Harbinger is a dog in comparison. The only other BC you regularly see is the 'nado and it is limited to use as a suicide gank boat. Prophecy lacks any missile bonuses so missiles are definitely a secondary weapon ... which actually makes it a good candidate for RLML's.
To me the Prophecy is now just a sexy beast. I like having options, and that ship is now very flexable. I have run it in many configurations, from 100mn AB kiter to a sluggish space brick with every kind of weapon there is. It looks cool, fits easy, and costs next to nothing. |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2945
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 02:16:00 -
[70] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:To me the Prophecy is now just a sexy beast. I like having options, and that ship is now very flexable. I have run it in many configurations, from 100mn AB kiter to a sluggish space brick with every kind of weapon there is. It looks cool, fits easy, and costs next to nothing. The "brick" aspect you got right. Give it 2 more launchers and missile bonuses and I'd be all over it. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
403
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 05:56:00 -
[71] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:To me the Prophecy is now just a sexy beast. I like having options, and that ship is now very flexable. I have run it in many configurations, from 100mn AB kiter to a sluggish space brick with every kind of weapon there is. It looks cool, fits easy, and costs next to nothing. The "brick" aspect you got right. Give it 2 more launchers and missile bonuses and I'd be all over it.
Try the Damnation. Also sexy but in a whole different way. |
Voxinian
28
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 08:15:00 -
[72] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Price? Drones? I don't know. Why would I fly anything else if I could fly a Golem? Golems are overrated... I agree. The question rates right up there with why would I fly anything but an Incursus. You fly what you want to fly. A Rattlesnake isn't a Golem, which would be a good enough answer for me. I'd likely have a Rattlesnake in my hanger right now if I had ever bothered to learn Caldari ships. In 2008 I didn't feel like being from the Space Walmart Empire, I chose Space French instead. My focus has been on Armor and Drones until very recently, but I always liked the idea of Missiles and Drones. The Amarr Dragoon and retooled Prophecy kinda make me feel tingly in the nethers.
And thats why besides the rattlesnake missile boats needs to be buffed. 90% of my SPs are missile boat skills... hoping for CCP to make them viable ships for solo pvp one day. |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
658
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 08:37:00 -
[73] - Quote
The idea of solo battleship pvp in eve is a convenient myth. Much like the idea of the chivalrous knight.
Even if you engage in a duel, if you don't have logistics backup you should know that the other guy does.
Balancing a ship around solo pvp is balancing it around its least likely use case.
What makes a ship good in reality is the ability to project damage and to move fast, and secondarily it's ability to prevent other ships doing the same thing.
This is why the rattlesnake is less popular than the vindicator (prevents things moving), machariel (projects damage and moves fast) and even less popular than a Dominix (projects damage).
A rattlesnake does none of these desirable things. In order to make use of itself it must commit early, which makes the outcome of the fight a lottery - removing all choice from the pilot.
Making it strong with an ECM bonus would give it the opportunity to disengage from a brawl that was not going well, which is an ability the other pirate ships don't have.
This is why it should have an ECM bonus and have one low replaced by a mid. Then you could brawl with a few of them while reducing incoming dps. Individuals for whom the fight was not going well could through coordination , break enemy scrambler locks, MJD out of the engagement and then away to repair.
This would the make the rattlesnake a viable brawler in many sizes of engagement. Particularly when supported by some basiisks and a few ravens.
Welcome the return of shield brawlers to eve!
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Luscius Uta
Unleashed' Fury Forsaken Federation
72
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 12:32:00 -
[74] - Quote
Rattlesnake needs some love. One thing it does not need is more tank, though. So Caldari Battleship skill bonus and shield recharge rate are both fine. Gallente Battleship skill bonus is standard on drone boats, so that's fine as well. But the thing needs more DPS, so I would add one more launcher slot (to increase paper DPS) and replace the not so useful special ability with 25% bonus to explosion velocity (to increase practical DPS). |
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
2
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 12:37:00 -
[75] - Quote
On a more serious note, we should wait and see what happens to other pirate BS first. Then try to find changes to keep the RS at same power level as the rest |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2947
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 12:47:00 -
[76] - Quote
Are Pirate ships next for rebalancing? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
5
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 12:54:00 -
[77] - Quote
No idea, but we have all heard rumors about nerf to Mach and that web strenght might be up for depate on the Vindi.
This seems to indicate that current power levels may not be the same as after balance, whenever that balance comes |
Kane Fenris
NWP
143
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 13:27:00 -
[78] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Isn't a gun turret a chance-based weapon?
not after piloting skills are applied..... (i mean actual piloting not the skills) |
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
5
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 13:35:00 -
[79] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Isn't a gun turret a chance-based weapon?
not after piloting skills are applied..... (i mean actual piloting not the skills)
You can have as much piloting skill as you want, there is still a chance for doing 50%-150% for each shot (and 1% chance for 3x dmg)
There is no random in the form of hitting or not, but there is a random for how much dmg you do |
Kane Fenris
NWP
143
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 13:47:00 -
[80] - Quote
Itago Gemulus wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Isn't a gun turret a chance-based weapon?
not after piloting skills are applied..... (i mean actual piloting not the skills) You can have as much piloting skill as you want, there is still a chance for doing 50%-150% for each shot (and 1% chance for 3x dmg) There is no random in the form of hitting or not, but there is a random for how much dmg you do
if i look at the averag damge distribution over shoots fired in a random engagement it wil be normal distributed considererd a standard fight lengh the average damage should be very lose to the center of the distribution thus dmaga should not be seen as chance based
while ecm hugely depends on when you get the first jam and other factors and cant be seen as a perfectly good normal distribution over a fight
as to the piloting skills i am aware of how they work i was just making a joke when i implied he thinks hitting may be a random thing... |
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Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
6
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Posted - 2014.02.24 13:58:00 -
[81] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:Itago Gemulus wrote:Kane Fenris wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Isn't a gun turret a chance-based weapon?
not after piloting skills are applied..... (i mean actual piloting not the skills) You can have as much piloting skill as you want, there is still a chance for doing 50%-150% for each shot (and 1% chance for 3x dmg) There is no random in the form of hitting or not, but there is a random for how much dmg you do if i look at the averag damge distribution over shoots fired in a random engagement it wil be normal distributed considererd a standard fight lengh the average damage should be very lose to the center of the distribution thus dmaga should not be seen as chance based while ecm hugely depends on when you get the first jam and other factors and cant be seen as a perfectly good normal distribution over a fight as to the piloting skills i am aware of how they work i was just making a joke when i implied he thinks hitting may be a random thing...
Only reason you dont see ECM average out is that ECM ships are killed asap, over same number of tries it will equal out just as good as gun dmg (again not counting bad tracking) |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
662
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 14:54:00 -
[82] - Quote
^^ this.
Over the course of a very long fight, ECM can just be seen as a damage reducer in the same way an afterburner, invulnerability field or nano membrane is.
The tracking disruptor is also a damage reducer. In a small scale fight, a sensor dampener is a binary on/off switch for incoming damage. In a larger fight it is also just a damage reducer.
In addition, if either the target or the gunship have any transversal then a gun is absolutely a chance based weapon. Both "to hit" chance and "damage roll" are randomised with limits fixed by range and angular velocity. Again over the course of a fight this randomness just becomes a damage reduction factor for guns in the same way it is for missiles.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Batelle
HOMELE55
1879
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 14:58:00 -
[83] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:Caldari Battleship Bonuses (per skill level): 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Gallente Battleship bonuses (per skill level): 10% to drone hitpoints and damage
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Rapid Heavy missile, Cruise Missile and Torpedo damage
The RS does NOT need to be a Caldari domi imo (so no drone range bonus)..having said that, we have to wait and see what CCP has in store for the pirate lines re-balance. Maybe all ships will be refocused.
That would be pretty damn cool. With 8 effective cruise launchers + drones it won't matter if it has sub-par application for the missiles.
Would also make it the ultimate MJD gankboat. I love it. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Kane Fenris
NWP
143
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 15:22:00 -
[84] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:^^ this.
Over the course of a very long fight, ECM can just be seen as a damage reducer in the same way an afterburner, invulnerability field or nano membrane is.
The tracking disruptor is also a damage reducer. In a small scale fight, a sensor dampener is a binary on/off switch for incoming damage. In a larger fight it is also just a damage reducer.
In addition, if either the target or the gunship have any transversal then a gun is absolutely a chance based weapon. Both "to hit" chance and "damage roll" are randomised with limits fixed by range and angular velocity. Again over the course of a fight this randomness just becomes a damage reduction factor for guns in the same way it is for missiles.
"Over the course of a very long fight, ECM can just be seen as a damage reducer..... " [see above]
this is exactly my point
the lengh of an average fight is long enough that most mods can be seen the way you describe but the lengh of a figh required to see ecm the same way eccedes the lengh most battle last.
if youd wanted to fix that ecm would need to las shorter and ecm modules would need to have shorter cycle time while the frequency wil always be limited by the locktime of the target so it might even be impossible to fix ecm thats why it is a horrible mechanic to me. |
Batelle
HOMELE55
1882
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 15:33:00 -
[85] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:^^ this.
Over the course of a very long fight, ECM can just be seen as a damage reducer in the same way an afterburner, invulnerability field or nano membrane is.
The tracking disruptor is also a damage reducer. In a small scale fight, a sensor dampener is a binary on/off switch for incoming damage. In a larger fight it is also just a damage reducer.
In addition, if either the target or the gunship have any transversal then a gun is absolutely a chance based weapon. Both "to hit" chance and "damage roll" are randomised with limits fixed by range and angular velocity. Again over the course of a fight this randomness just becomes a damage reduction factor for guns in the same way it is for missiles.
"Over the course of a very long fight, ECM can just be seen as a damage reducer..... " [see above] this is exactly my point the lengh of an average fight is long enough that most mods can be seen the way you describe but the lengh of a figh required to see ecm the same way eccedes the lengh most battle last. if youd wanted to fix that ecm would need to las shorter and ecm modules would need to have shorter cycle time while the frequency wil always be limited by the locktime of the target so it might even be impossible to fix ecm thats why it is a horrible mechanic to me.
The situations where ECM functions as a damage reducer over time are also the situations where ECM is the least effective. Its most effective when it jamming out 50-100% of dps for solid blocks of time, and this is what people complain about.
"CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
662
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 15:35:00 -
[86] - Quote
Kane Fenris wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:^^ this.
Over the course of a very long fight, ECM can just be seen as a damage reducer in the same way an afterburner, invulnerability field or nano membrane is.
The tracking disruptor is also a damage reducer. In a small scale fight, a sensor dampener is a binary on/off switch for incoming damage. In a larger fight it is also just a damage reducer.
In addition, if either the target or the gunship have any transversal then a gun is absolutely a chance based weapon. Both "to hit" chance and "damage roll" are randomised with limits fixed by range and angular velocity. Again over the course of a fight this randomness just becomes a damage reduction factor for guns in the same way it is for missiles.
"Over the course of a very long fight, ECM can just be seen as a damage reducer..... " [see above] this is exactly my point the lengh of an average fight is long enough that most mods can be seen the way you describe but the lengh of a figh required to see ecm the same way eccedes the lengh most battle last. if youd wanted to fix that ecm would need to las shorter and ecm modules would need to have shorter cycle time while the frequency wil always be limited by the locktime of the target so it might even be impossible to fix ecm thats why it is a horrible mechanic to me.
I don't think ECM needs fixing (except the ecm drone re-deploy exploit). All ECM-bonused ships are weak except the ECMgu. Making the rattlesnake into the first strong ECM-bonused ship would make it much more desirable in PVP, which is where I feel it belongs.
I would not be unhappy at all to see doctrines of 100 rattlesnakes taking on standard fleets twice the size. I think that's the purpose of a pirate or navy ship isn't it?
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
6
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 15:43:00 -
[87] - Quote
The nice thing about average is that it dont start/stop for each engagement. Every cycle of an ECM module is unrelated to the last or the other modules, meaning that if you record the land/fail for 100k cycles you will be realy close to the same value as the jamming formula states (I would actualy assume less than 1% off) Ofc for this to work you need to know the jamming strenght and sensor strenght for every attempt |
Batelle
HOMELE55
1882
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 15:50:00 -
[88] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote: I don't think ECM needs fixing (except the ecm drone re-deploy exploit). All ECM-bonused ships are weak except the ECMgu. Making the rattlesnake into the first strong ECM-bonused ship would make it much more desirable in PVP, which is where I feel it belongs.
Making the rattlesnake PVP worthy is an important goal, but making it an ECM ship would do the opposite, sadly (as well as making the price crash even worse if at all possible due to it then also being useless for pve). Scorpions are always primary, how do you think people will feel about a very shiny scorpion? Do you think people will want to use a pirate battleship for what is often considered a suicide role? "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
662
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 15:58:00 -
[89] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote: I don't think ECM needs fixing (except the ecm drone re-deploy exploit). All ECM-bonused ships are weak except the ECMgu. Making the rattlesnake into the first strong ECM-bonused ship would make it much more desirable in PVP, which is where I feel it belongs.
Making the rattlesnake PVP worthy is an important goal, but making it an ECM ship would do the opposite, sadly (as well as making the price crash even worse if at all possible due to it then also being useless for pve). Scorpions are always primary, how do you think people will feel about a very shiny scorpion? Do you think people will want to use a pirate battleship for what is often considered a suicide role?
With the bonus as I am suggesting them I would not advocate fitting ECM modules exclusively - just two per ship.
The rattlesnake would still be pushing out >1000dps and have ~160k ehp.
I think it would be viable in a small to moderate fleet, even if primary.
I actually think it would present the other side with a dilemma. Do you go for the damn dangerous ECM rattlesnake which is as tough as old boots, or do you hit something squishier instead? I think in many cases a wise FC would go for something squishier.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Test Alliance Please Ignore
546
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 18:01:00 -
[90] - Quote
Faction BS + ECM = primary in every engagement. I'd rather see the Widow fixed before we try to make another ECM BS.
The Rattlesnake is typical of split weapon systems. With the shorter range on drones, it doesn't really benefit from the enhanced range on cruise missiles, which are employed to make up for the lack of drone dps. Torpedoes have application and range issues. Javelin torps have roughly the same application and damage as Fury cruise missiles with roughly 25% the range. There is literally no reason to ever use them except on a stealth bomber.
The best thing it has going for it is a ****-off passive tank. But a huge tank doesn't kill enemies. My T2 Raven gets slightly better dps and tank despite the lack of a resist bonus and with only a 25% bonus to missile RoF, and it will do it at much longer ranges than the Rattler because RS has to swap to longer range drones to do it.
Its combination of range, damage, and tanking bonuses are in conflict with one another. It needs to be refocused either on LR combat, or brawling. Its a prime example of the old school CCP design philosophy of "let's throw some bonuses on this ship because it will be cool. Heh-heh-heh. Heh-heh."
Personally, its already a decent brawler with the ability to fit 2x Large neuts in addition to a full tank, tackle, and lots of dps mods. But it needs a bit more CPU so it can fit that stuff. PG seems to be good. Free Ripley Weaver! |
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