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Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
3026
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Posted - 2014.02.26 19:48:00 -
[31] - Quote
Steffanie Saissore wrote:Katrina Oniseki wrote:Julianus Soter wrote:Apparently, to the Amarr, political and economic mobility for every citizen is only a few thousand years away ...
Throwing my hat into the ring to say I cannot believe an interstellar starship pilot is honestly using "light years" as a measure of time. Abject idiocy, courtesy of the leader of Moira. Could have been worse. Could have used parsecs instead.
I want you and everybody else to take careful note of what's going on here.
Here is a man who has an innate understanding of interstellar travel, quantum navigation, warp theory, jump theory, and more. From the operation and calibration of jump drives to the precise calculations required for warping multiple AU in a single minute. This man is a capsuleer, who pilots starships with the skill of a trained artisan with nothing but his mind and the force of will to command vast machines to do his bidding.
Yet despite this experience and capability, he has managed to make a layman's blunder that betrays a critical level of persistent ignorance which escapes my ability to reconcile with what he does for a living. This is comparable to a watchmaker not being able to tell the difference between the minute and hour needles. This is a pilot who does not know the difference between meters and minutes.
This is a starship pilot who doesn't realize "light years" are a measure of distance. Specifically, the distance light travels in a standard year.
Following that same flatulent ignorance, he then starts making judgments to imply understanding of the Amarrian system of slavery.
Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Director of Public Relations |
Gosakumori Noh
Seraglio Hastatus Hagia Sophia
547
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 19:49:00 -
[32] - Quote
The Caldari excel, and Pieter excels at being Caldari. That was truly remarkable akido. I very much doubt there is anyone you cannot spar with, Mr. Tuulinen.
You give me the vibe of a senior detective or prosecutor. |
Eran Mintor
Esoteric Philosophy
476
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Posted - 2014.02.26 19:51:00 -
[33] - Quote
Ms. Oniseki, I hate to be the one to defend Mr. Soter but your points are invalid. He didn't say "light years" he simply said "years" and I'm quite certain he was refering to time.
Pardon the interuption.
-Eran |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
458
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 19:51:00 -
[34] - Quote
Where did he say light years? I only see "a few thousand years". |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
3026
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 19:55:00 -
[35] - Quote
What?! Nonsense, he clearly said...
WHAT?!!??!
No!
I have been had! Bamboozled! Tricked in the most base and horrid of ways!
It said light, I swear it! Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Director of Public Relations |
Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights Of Polaris
11
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Posted - 2014.02.26 19:59:00 -
[36] - Quote
((***NOTHING TO SEE HERE***))) |
Vulxanis Viceroy
Xiadii Family Holdings
44
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 20:13:00 -
[37] - Quote
Katrina Oniseki wrote:What?! Nonsense, he clearly said...
WHAT?!!??!
No!
I have been had! Bamboozled! Tricked in the most base and horrid of ways!
It said light, I swear it!
(( Nevermind, I and my character are both ******* retarded and cannot read. All my years of English classes and experience with RP, and I literally cannot read a sentence correctly. I will now leave this thread in shame, having made only the most complete ass of myself and my character. Carry on, Soter! ))
A mere misreading that got extended. Nothing to worry about. I have done so in the past as well. Moving on. Fide et honore.
(OOC note: proper form of address is Lord Draconis. Not anything with "Viceroy". Seriously, read my bio - https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Vulxanis_Viceroy#Extended_Bio)-á((Twitter @VulxanisViceroy)) |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
3281
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 20:30:00 -
[38] - Quote
Gosakumori Noh wrote:The Caldari excel, and Pieter excels at being Caldari. That was truly remarkable akido. I very much doubt there is anyone you cannot spar with, Mr. Tuulinen.
You give me the vibe of a senior detective or prosecutor.
That must have been a happy accident. Still, I do appreciate the laconic approach, because the least said the closest to wisdom - especially in my case. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
896
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 22:22:00 -
[39] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:Taken from another thread debating the use of Vitoc, TCMCs and other forms of control of slaves: Samira Kernher wrote: To properly break a slave, they must learn submissiveness. They must learn that they are sinful and weak. They must be taught that certain actions, words, and thoughts are unacceptable, and that this will be enforced without hesitation and without fail. They must learn the proper Code of Demeanor--to discipline their thoughts and emotions and conform to appropriate behavior. The last thing you want to teach a slave is aggression, because violent release teaches a slave that they are strong and can affect the world around them. Subduing their ability to affect the world around them, through violence or otherwise, teaches them of their own insignificance.
Slaves must be taught fear and helplessness, so that they recognize their limitations. Once they understand their own insignificance, they will learn to look to the Amarr and to God for love, guidance, support, and protection. From that will they find salvation.
Total subservience, helplessness, constant fear, lack of personal growth, the inability to think for oneself, to be a permanent child incapable of caring for ones' basic needs, who perpetually look to the Amarr for protection, approval and even love, one who exists only to serve the needs of the "True Amarr". This, friends, is what the Amarr are offering. The next time you encounter a so-called Amarrian moderate or reformer ask them why humanity would be better under their rule. Ask them about the Ealur who are still enslaved after thousands of years. Ask them about Vak'Atioth and their other acts of territorial expansion. Ask them why the Ni-Kunni are relegated to menial labor and treated as second class citizens. Ask them about the orbital bombardment of Starkman Prime. Ask them about the invasion and occupation of Matar. Once you get the answers to these questions, ask yourself why you'd ever consider being a part of their vision for humanity. You didn't learn it yet. Go back to slave pen. |
Steffanie Saissore
Stormcrows
317
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 22:56:00 -
[40] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote: You didn't learn it yet. Go back to slave pen.
And here I thought the Caldari were against slavery. Steffanie Saissore, Knight Stormcrows
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Pontianak Sythaeryn
Bottle Distribution Ops Center
131
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 23:06:00 -
[41] - Quote
Steffanie Saissore wrote:Diana Kim wrote: You didn't learn it yet. Go back to slave pen.
And here I thought the Caldari were against slavery.
Diana is a "special" kind of Caldari and I would wager a sizable amount of isk that her views aren't universal among them. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
897
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 23:15:00 -
[42] - Quote
Steffanie Saissore wrote:Diana Kim wrote: You didn't learn it yet. Go back to slave pen.
And here I thought the Caldari were against slavery. You thought many other things too, including public lies about me.
Caldari are not "against" slavery, we aren't filthy anti-slavery freaks like gallenteans. We don't practice slavery ourselves, and we have laws, prohibiting usage or keeping of slaves in the State. But we aren't fighting slavery and don't judge against it in territories outside of jurisdiction of corporate laws. |
Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative
213
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 23:22:00 -
[43] - Quote
Pontianak Sythaeryn wrote:Steffanie Saissore wrote:Diana Kim wrote: You didn't learn it yet. Go back to slave pen.
And here I thought the Caldari were against slavery. Diana is a "special" kind of Caldari and I would wager a sizable amount of isk that her views aren't universal among them. You should have put an amount down. You'd have won by default. |
Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Cult of War
2144
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 00:38:00 -
[44] - Quote
Slavery has failed, and Empress Jamyl's emancipation of many slaves in the Empire suggest that even the Amarr are starting to get the idea that slavery doesn't work.
Let it be reminded there is nothing wrong with trying to peacefully convert someone to your religious beliefs. If someone finds you convincing and is converting through their own free will, then that's wonderful. If it doesn't work out, don't pull out the chains and whips, try again or try someone else.
Look at the Gallente for instance. We are the master's at cultural warfare. All current member states of the Federation joined without being coerced, forced, or threatened. We flew our diplomats to their home, learned their culture, and then showed them how that culture can be improved through joining us. And with the exception of the Caldari, it has worked wonderfully.
Slavery has failed. Most of the time it does not bring the subjugated closer to God (assuming he exists) and is completely outdated as a work force. Anything a slave is forced to do can be done with drones. Just get rid of it already! Yes, there are success stories, some of them quite incredible and beautiful. But I'm sure that for every slave that beneffited from their enslavement, there are a hundred thousand others who did not, if not more. Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |
Anabella Rella
Gradient
1520
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 00:53:00 -
[45] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:Some quite wild assumptions there Anabella. Are you trying to ask questions in your own weird angry way?
If the assumptions are wild they were based on the doctrinal pronouncements of one of your religions faithful.
Also, I find your passive-aggressive tone quite amusing. If you want to insult me slaver, then do so. Don't hide behind a thinly disguised, sneering quip. And for the record I wasn't asking anything nor am I angry. I'm stating my opinion based on my years of listening to your people attempt to explain/justify your religion, your wars of aggression, your cultural imperialism and your own so-called holy scripture. When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
460
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 00:55:00 -
[46] - Quote
The majority of slaves and former slaves have embraced God. Most of us who were emancipated maintain our faith. It has not failed. |
Anabella Rella
Gradient
1520
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 01:05:00 -
[47] - Quote
Eran Mintor wrote:Apologies.
My mistake for having thought there was a chance this thread could evolve to an actual discussion. I should have stuck with my initial instinct; clearly all this will be is a circle of Minmatar and Gallente "freedom" fighters who will shout "Grrr Amarr!" while banging on their wardrums to deafen any offerings of reason.
Carry on with your warmongering. Send me a postcard from your deathbed telling me of how much it accomplished.
-Eran
Who's warmongering? I certainly haven't called for anything of the sort. I made a statement and asked people to ask questions. I'm still waiting for answers.
Do feel free to return and tell us all why the Amarr, their culture and their religion are misunderstood, Pilot Mintor. When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around. |
Gosakumori Noh
Seraglio Hastatus Hagia Sophia
548
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 01:28:00 -
[48] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:Also, I find your passive-aggressive tone quite amusing.
Better. And. Better. No, no, it can't be that beautiful. Tell us, sweetie, what does "passive-aggressive" mean? |
Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Cult of War
2145
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 02:55:00 -
[49] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:
The majority of slaves and former slaves have embraced God. Most of us who were emancipated maintain our faith. It has not failed.
Do you have numbers (or you know, actual proof) or am I just going to have to take your word for it? Considering roughly 2/3rds of those former slaves outright revolted and created their own country while rejecting your God, I'm quite confident that your "majority" is actually a minority. Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |
Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights Of Polaris
11
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 02:57:00 -
[50] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:Eran Mintor wrote:Apologies.
My mistake for having thought there was a chance this thread could evolve to an actual discussion. I should have stuck with my initial instinct; clearly all this will be is a circle of Minmatar and Gallente "freedom" fighters who will shout "Grrr Amarr!" while banging on their wardrums to deafen any offerings of reason.
Carry on with your warmongering. Send me a postcard from your deathbed telling me of how much it accomplished.
-Eran Who's warmongering? I certainly haven't called for anything of the sort. I made a statement and asked people to ask questions. I'm still waiting for answers. Do feel free to return and tell us all why the Amarr, their culture and their religion are misunderstood, Pilot Mintor.
There is no misunderstanding, Lady Rella, he lacks the foresight to see that his view of 'offerings of reason' are equivalent to nothing more than appeasement.
To reason about the Amarrian system of slavery is the same as trying to reason with a beast to release it's prey.
As to your discussion with Ms. Noh; stay strong for truth is on your side. |
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Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Kaltiovon
662
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 03:12:00 -
[51] - Quote
Thats a very ignorant and rude thing to say to someone who, unlike the majority of people, is trying to speak reason and understanding rather than hate. If you cannot learn to listen and open ypur mind then your doomed to repeat the same mistakes as your ancestors. Its for this reason you see too few approach the Faith with an open hand rather than a closed fist and create more Crusaders than Missionaries. The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word.
- The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21 |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
461
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 04:16:00 -
[52] - Quote
Fredfredbug4 wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:
The majority of slaves and former slaves have embraced God. Most of us who were emancipated maintain our faith. It has not failed.
Do you have numbers (or you know, actual proof) or am I just going to have to take your word for it? Considering roughly 2/3rds of those former slaves outright revolted and created their own country while rejecting your God, I'm quite confident that your "majority" is actually a minority.
Do you? You shouldn't demand proof while making empty claims yourself. I don't think your "1 faithful out of every 100,000 slaves" comment is based on much fact.
There are more Matari in the Empire than in the Republic. I believe the commonly given number is a third of all Minmatar are in the Empire, compared to a quarter in the Republic. That's about 11 trillion total in the Empire, not including the Mandate, according to a recent MIO census. 200 billion of those are free citizens. By that same census, 98% of people in the Empire actively practice the faith.
Even many former slaves who have moved to the Republic continue to follow the faith. You need only look at news reports from the years immediately following the emancipation which talk about violence between groups over these beliefs. And at least one of the tribal chiefs is of the faith. |
Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights Of Polaris
11
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 04:54:00 -
[53] - Quote
Simon Louvaki wrote:Noden Vorpalstar wrote: There is no misunderstanding, Lady Rella, he lacks the foresight to see that his view of 'offerings of reason' are equivalent to nothing more than appeasement.
To reason about the Amarrian system of slavery is the same as trying to reason with a beast to release it's prey.
As to your discussion with Ms. Noh; stay strong for truth is on your side.
Thats a very ignorant and rude thing to say to someone who, unlike the majority of people, is trying to speak reason and understanding rather than hate.
My comment was not meant to be rude, Mr. Louvaki. I am only attempting to help Mr. Mintor 'reason' his way out of his non-realist way of thinking. He is a wise man, from what I can tell, just a little misguided is all.
Slavery is a sick and twisted thing no matter how it is presented. So many seem to want to sugar coat it, to cover the bitter evil which festers inside. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
898
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 05:35:00 -
[54] - Quote
Saya Ishikari wrote:Pontianak Sythaeryn wrote:Steffanie Saissore wrote:Diana Kim wrote: You didn't learn it yet. Go back to slave pen.
And here I thought the Caldari were against slavery. Diana is a "special" kind of Caldari and I would wager a sizable amount of isk that her views aren't universal among them. You should have put an amount down. You'd have won by default. And you'd have won if you kept your hnolku mouth shut. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
898
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 05:36:00 -
[55] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:Eran Mintor wrote:Apologies.
My mistake for having thought there was a chance this thread could evolve to an actual discussion. I should have stuck with my initial instinct; clearly all this will be is a circle of Minmatar and Gallente "freedom" fighters who will shout "Grrr Amarr!" while banging on their wardrums to deafen any offerings of reason.
Carry on with your warmongering. Send me a postcard from your deathbed telling me of how much it accomplished.
-Eran Who's warmongering? I certainly haven't called for anything of the sort. I made a statement and asked people to ask questions. I'm still waiting for answers. Do feel free to return and tell us all why the Amarr, their culture and their religion are misunderstood, Pilot Mintor. You got your answers. Now return to the pen and learn them. |
Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Cult of War
2145
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 05:47:00 -
[56] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Do you? You shouldn't demand proof while making empty claims yourself. I don't think your "1 faithful out of every 100,000 slaves" comment is based on much fact.
There are more Matari in the Empire than in the Republic. I believe the commonly given number is a third of all Minmatar are in the Empire, compared to a quarter in the Republic. That's about 11 trillion total in the Empire, not including the Mandate, according to a recent MIO census. 200 billion of those are free citizens. By that same census, 98% of people in the Empire actively practice the faith.
Even many former slaves who have moved to the Republic continue to follow the faith. You need only look at news reports from the years immediately following the emancipation which talk about violence between groups over these beliefs. And at least one of the tribal chiefs is of the faith.
My 1 out of 100,000 comment was intended not to be taken as fact, but as a hyperbolic expression to sum up my thoughts on the issue. Yes, slavery works for some, but for most it does not.
1/3rd is not a majority of people. Also, I highly doubt a slave would tell someone they don't follow the faith with their holder watching over them. That 98% statistic is probably not accurate in this context. If 98% of the entire population is actually following the faith, then why are we even talking about this? I'd imagine if virtually every slave was truly practicing the faith, there would have been no rebellion.
Put yourself in the shoes of a slave during the census and assume you did not actually believe the faith. Would you say that you didn't and risk getting punished, or would you say you did and avoid punishment and possibly even earn a reward? Basic survival instinct will compel most to say the latter.
Also, who's to say some slaves are even allowed to respond to the census? I'd imagine it would be more controlling and certainly more efficient for a holder to file the census report himself and have the data show what he wants to be accurate, or believes to be accurate. And again, basic survival instinct comes into play too. Do you really think a holder would risk tarnishing his reputation by saying a number of his slaves don't follow the faith he has been trying so hard to teach them?
I like how you used "many" in your third paragraph instead of "most". In which case, I would have to agree. Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |
Ruin Rolmera
Ruin Corp
2
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 06:12:00 -
[57] - Quote
Whether a slave follows the Amarrian religion is hardly the point. |
Eran Mintor
Esoteric Philosophy
493
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 06:37:00 -
[58] - Quote
Not sure whether I'm wasting breath here, but I'll bite.
Ms. Rella, you did not directly advocate war or genocide which makes me wonder why you think I was refering to you, when infact I was referring to Mr. Vorpalstar's comment about " winning freedom for an oppressed people by burning the citidels and cities of a debased society to the ground."
Anyways, your original statement was full of incomplete truths, something I quickly addressed and you ignored. Despite this, you're asking the wrong questions. As for me explaining the ways in which the Amarr, their religion, and culture are misunderstood you need only read the last few pages of 'The Two and a Half Minutes Hate: Birth of a Ritual' to see what I mean. I'm not going to repeat myself here but I'll make it easy for you.
Do feel free to return and have a real discussion, Ms. Rella.
As for Mr. Vorpalstar, I don't really know what to say to you. This might help though:
Read.
I don't defend slavery nor do I sugarcoat it. Slavery has the potential to be one of the ugliest things in a Man's life, though this may not always be the case. Please find a quote where I say slavery is fine and dandy with me, or one where I state that it shouldn't be abolished. I'll help you-don't waste your time because you won't find one.
I don't defend slavery, I do my own work against it, no matter how small in the grand picture it may be. But I defend people, and it's people like you they need protection from. You would commit acts of genocide against a nation of trilions, the same kind of genocide pundits tout as their causus belli, because you don't like it.
Don't you ever insult me again.
-Eran |
Saya Ishikari
Akagi Initiative
214
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 06:42:00 -
[59] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Fredfredbug4 wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:
The majority of slaves and former slaves have embraced God. Most of us who were emancipated maintain our faith. It has not failed.
Do you have numbers (or you know, actual proof) or am I just going to have to take your word for it? Considering roughly 2/3rds of those former slaves outright revolted and created their own country while rejecting your God, I'm quite confident that your "majority" is actually a minority. Do you? You shouldn't demand proof while making empty claims yourself. I don't think your "1 faithful out of every 100,000 slaves" comment is based on much fact. There are more Matari in the Empire than in the Republic. I believe the commonly given number is a third of all Minmatar are in the Empire, compared to a quarter in the Republic. That's about 11 trillion total in the Empire, not including the Mandate, according to a recent MIO census. 200 billion of those are free citizens. By that same census, 98% of people in the Empire actively practice the faith. Even many former slaves who have moved to the Republic continue to follow the faith. You need only look at news reports from the years immediately following the emancipation which talk about violence between groups over these beliefs. And at least one of the tribal chiefs is of the faith. There are three questions, which cover potentially argument breaking flaws, that I can't help but feel need to be addressed... Comparing percentages, ethnic Minmatar comprise fully fifteen percent of the Empires population, and while two hundred billion recognuzed as free may sound like a lot, it comprises only one percent of the overall population. As slaves, the fourteen percent are considered property, are they not? As such, are they counted as an active facet of the Empires population when the ninety eight percent adherence rate to the Faith is presented?
Further, of those counted, if counted at all, are those who adhere under duress and force counted the same as willing participants? And finally, how are they counted? Are they accounted for individually? Or does their Holder answer for them in this case?
Any of these details has the potential to seriously skew the best-case-scenario numbers presented by the MIO, so I imagine my curiosity should come as no surprise. Rikaato. |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1669
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 07:52:00 -
[60] - Quote
Julianus Soter wrote:Apparently, to the Amarr, political and economic mobility for every citizen is only a few thousand years away ...
If we are to judge the slavery "Salvation" program on the merits of its slaves becoming normalized into society, IE "saved", then it quantitatively fails in every category. What is it, a 5% success rate? Less?
When one considers the descendents of those slaves who are enlightened, then it's a number approaching 100%
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
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