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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
16818
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Posted - 2014.02.27 20:19:00 -
[151] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Rashnu Gorbani wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Hasikan Miallok wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Because you're essentially asking your friends to be peasants for a year. If they join now, nothing they can do will get them in that battleship.
Not true at all. A couple of PLEX worth of ISK and a visit to the character bazaar will have you in a battleship in a few days if that's what you really desire. Yea I guess that's true. As of right now the initial entrance fee into EVE is like what? $10? $15? There are still alot of games out there that costs $45, $50, $60, even $70. Paying in between those prices for the most developed character along the path they wish to pursue would not be a bad investment. Buying a main character is a really stupid investment. It's like paying to win the game without playing it. It's not a game any more then is it? And who the hell likes to fly battleships anyway? I sure don't. I don't understand the Widow fixation. When I started out there was so much to learn about the game I didn't _really_ mind having to skill (and that meant some learning skills too). Now it's really easy and fast to get into anything with frigs and cruisers buffed so much. Someone suggested it to me as an option, I was simply agreeing that yes it is an option. A pisspoor option, a character with 100M SP in the hands of a newb will be useless, because the newb has no clue whatsoever about how to use it to its best potential, primarily because they haven't learnt anything about the game and went the pay to win route, only to discover that in Eve pay to win is actually pay to lose.
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Divine Entervention
The Lonetrek Militia Rapidus Incitus Pactum
54
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Posted - 2014.02.27 20:23:00 -
[152] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
A pisspoor option, a character with 100M SP in the hands of a newb will be useless, because the newb has no clue whatsoever about how to use it to its best potential, primarily because they haven't learnt anything about the game and went the pay to win route, only to discover that in Eve pay to win is actually pay to lose.
Personally I agree with you. I'm not planning on buying a high SP character. I'm going to grow this one.
Others may feel differently and choose to get a high SP character regardless of what any of us think, and they're allowed to do it if they wish.
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Hadrian Blackstone
Barringtons Research
6
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Posted - 2014.02.27 20:29:00 -
[153] - Quote
Rashnu Gorbani wrote:And who the hell likes to fly battleships anyway?
I guess all those battleships I see flying around are piloted by NPCs |
Nicolai Serkanner
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
72
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Posted - 2014.02.27 20:40:00 -
[154] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:
Yea well, too bad for you because it's not my intention to quit.
#dealwithit
lol ... and I would care if you live or die because???? |
Kristalll
Valkyrie Professional Resources
18
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Posted - 2014.02.27 20:45:00 -
[155] - Quote
Hadrian Blackstone wrote:Rashnu Gorbani wrote:And who the hell likes to fly battleships anyway? I guess all those battleships I see flying around are piloted by NPCs
or carebears...which might as well be NPCs. |
Divine Entervention
The Lonetrek Militia Rapidus Incitus Pactum
55
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Posted - 2014.02.27 20:47:00 -
[156] - Quote
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:
Yea well, too bad for you because it's not my intention to quit.
#dealwithit
lol ... and I would care if you live or die because????
Well at least we're on the same page regarding each other. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
108292
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Posted - 2014.02.27 20:59:00 -
[157] - Quote
Kristalll wrote:Hadrian Blackstone wrote:Rashnu Gorbani wrote:And who the hell likes to fly battleships anyway? I guess all those battleships I see flying around are piloted by NPCs or carebears...which might as well be NPCs.
Explain to me what a carebear "should" fly ????? "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."-á - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882 |
Kristalll
Valkyrie Professional Resources
18
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Posted - 2014.02.27 21:13:00 -
[158] - Quote
They just shouldn't be carebears. |
Hadrian Blackstone
Barringtons Research
6
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Posted - 2014.02.27 21:19:00 -
[159] - Quote
Kristalll wrote:They just shouldn't be carebears.
If you play eve you are a carebear. |
Nicolai Serkanner
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
72
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Posted - 2014.02.27 21:20:00 -
[160] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:
Yea well, too bad for you because it's not my intention to quit.
#dealwithit
lol ... and I would care if you live or die because???? Well at least we're on the same page regarding each other.
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Sibyyl
University of Caille Gallente Federation
114
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Posted - 2014.02.27 21:34:00 -
[161] - Quote
EVE only "takes too long" for new players who are afraid to lose. Lose the apprehension of being destroyed in your cheap frigate fit and it won't be long before you're having way too much fun.
i honestly wish the game wasn't this much fun.
/Fÿ¡
Now that you are *campers* you will have more *parties* and no more *sad* *lonely* *bubbles*. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
108339
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Posted - 2014.02.27 21:38:00 -
[162] - Quote
Kristalll wrote:They just shouldn't be carebears.
What's a carebear ?? I've never met one in 4 years. I see mission runners, miners, ice miners, mining bots, PI producers, market haulers, blah blah blah, happily gong about their business. But I've yet to encounter a "carebear", whatever that is. "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."-á - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882 |
Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
1024
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Posted - 2014.02.27 21:45:00 -
[163] - Quote
Aargolos wrote:BOOO!
So I was talking to some friends tonight that I used to play another "mmo" with. My question was, "why don't you play EvE?". They're still on the same ****** game for years. No development, no interesting changes, diminishing player-base.
These people have the potential to be "great" EvE players. They can find and exploit new features pretty effectively, use abstract tactics, and are willing to win at all costs. Also they like the "politics" aspect of gaming, and the meta-game.
Is it a fear of the learning cliff? Would they rather stay in the baby sandbox and "win" over taking a chance in the "big pond"?
Has anyone else had the same experience with their gaming "friends"?
I guess they are just not stupid enough to waste their time with this **** :'D check out my YouTube channel-áand Tumblr blog |
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
Arbitrary Spaceship Destruction The Devil's Warrior Alliance
127
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Posted - 2014.02.27 21:47:00 -
[164] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Because you're essentially asking your friends to be peasants for a year. If they join now, nothing they can do will get them in that battleship.
The bare minimum amount of time it would take for me to get into a Widow is 106 days. And that's to be able to sit in it and not effectively use it. To train up the required skills to pilot it effectively would take another 200 days. Granted you could fly it without all the other necessary skills, but it would be a huge liability considering your inefficient fittings and related skills.
Why would you ask your friends to waste a year?
You seem to be looking down the road towards flying [insert ship name here] and dismissing the importance of learning along the way. Frigates are a great platform for learning basic PVP mechanics while not being too invested because they're so cheap. I think you, along with those who agree with you, would be surprised by how much power a frigate can project while soaking up a considerable amount of incoming DPS.
Think about it - even if you were in a Widow ... would you understand the nuances of what you're going to be up against having not flown lesser platforms? It all ties together. http://www.devilswarrior.info/kb |
Alastair Ormand
Badger Badger Badger Apocalypse Now.
56
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Posted - 2014.02.27 22:29:00 -
[165] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Alastair Ormand wrote:The thing with Eve is it takes a while to get anywhere.... People want their super shiny stuff NOW. Like a baby who's been denied a lolly in super market que they'll kick and scream to get what they want and kill the game at the same time (World of Warcraft). Thankfully CCP has not bowed to these same pressures as much as other developers have and kept the game tough. It weeds out the weaklings and crushes their skulls. So basically, wait? New people should sign up to EVE and then wait. Wait a long time. Yea that sounds fine. Lets try advertising the game like that: Look at these awesome space ships! Fly battle ships! Fly Carriers! Fly TITANS!!!!!!!!! After a long wait. Yes, we want YOU to sign up for EVE today and wait a year so you too can fly those awesome amazing super cool ships! Join EVE now and begin WAITING today! SIGN ME UP Oh.... OK. Here you go everybody. Have a titan and go nuts. |
Tysun Kane
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2014.02.27 22:37:00 -
[166] - Quote
I love EVE forums for threads like these. Both sides are very passionate about the game from either side. The noob that gets pissed cause he has to wait for training cue for a new ship or new T2 weapon they want or the vets telling the noob to buck up and suck it up cause we all had to go down the same roads. All in all it's pure passion for the game I love and others love to hate. Long live NEW EDEN. |
ErrorRon
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
138
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Posted - 2014.02.27 22:47:00 -
[167] - Quote
SpoonRECKLESS wrote:Aargolos wrote:BOOO!
So I was talking to some friends tonight that I used to play another "mmo" with. My question was, "why don't you play EvE?". They're still on the same ****** game for years. No development, no interesting changes, diminishing player-base.
These people have the potential to be "great" EvE players. They can find and exploit new features pretty effectively, use abstract tactics, and are willing to win at all costs. Also they like the "politics" aspect of gaming, and the meta-game.
Is it a fear of the learning cliff? Would they rather stay in the baby sandbox and "win" over taking a chance in the "big pond"?
Has anyone else had the same experience with their gaming "friends"?
' Because its so freakin dark! Wheres my teddy I need it for protection from the boogie man.
Actually its too light now. Go back maybe 4 years and you'll see how terrifying a fleet looked with all the active midslot stuff pulsing in synchronisation. I miss that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtItWL6GfSM CCP Gargant - -áDev of my heart. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
318
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Posted - 2014.02.27 23:17:00 -
[168] - Quote
Quaggan Stomp wrote:
If a loss of a few most hardcore obsessed vets means the game gets better and larger and more people enjoy it and have fun, then why not ? CCP is a business and needs to make money, more enjoyable game = more players = more money
yeah ....
Wizards tried that with D&D 4th edition and look where that got them.
Dumbed down games full of noobs with no veteran players left may look good to the marketing guys straight out of uni ( a noob is worth a lot more cash per month than a bitter vet) but they invariably fail bigtime.
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Shederov Blood
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
818
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Posted - 2014.02.27 23:30:00 -
[169] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Kristalll wrote:They just shouldn't be carebears. What's a carebear ?? I've never met one in 4 years. I see mission runners, miners, ice miners, mining bots, PI producers, market haulers, blah blah blah, happily gong about their business. But I've yet to encounter a "carebear", whatever that is. Screenshot. |
Aargolos
Estrale Frontiers Project Wildfire
41
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Posted - 2014.02.27 23:37:00 -
[170] - Quote
Well I think I convinced one friend to try EvE and give up that worthless ******* crap called STO.
Time will tell! |
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Ai Shun
1163
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Posted - 2014.02.28 00:02:00 -
[171] - Quote
Quaggan Stomp, interesting to see the feedback from your friends.
Quaggan Stomp wrote:1. Once your skills get up to lvl 3-4, its like watching paint dry. There is nothing exciting about the progression itself.
I consider this a good thing. Forget about the skills (Beyond requirements for what you are trying to achieve) and let them train in the background. That allows a player to focus on the enjoyment of playing the game and participating in the social / empire / antagonistic relationships you can build up in it.
Quaggan Stomp wrote:2. No catch up mechanism. Especially in PvP. From what we see a player that will stay in this game for few months vs player that has been here for x years has absolute zero chance of success, unless the latter goes AFK, does something real stupid, or the new player gets extremely lucky. It takes too many years to catch up.
That is a common misconception and has been discussed at length the last week at least I'd wager any of your friends in a noobship could probably blow me out of the water and I've been training skills for 3 years now.
Quaggan Stomp wrote:3. There is nothing "cute" here. Literally. There is nothing here to catch the girls eyes (your girls may vary but mine do not).
Clearly you've not shown them your Iteron V.
Quaggan Stomp wrote:4. Unclear path or lack of path, to self sufficiency with ISK, and within most of the game systems. Running low level rat missions does not provide anywhere near enough ISK necessary to PvP and ship replacement at the necessary pace. It takes 3-4 days of gaming for 1 day of PvP.
Well, it is a social game. You can tackle it solo and try and do everything yourself, but this game works better when people work together. Join a corporation with a ship replacement policy is the simple answer - there are screeds of them. Apart from that, there are several ways to make ISK. Worst case scenario is to spend what ... $13 or whatever it is and get an injection of ~600,000,000 ISK. That'll keep a person in learning fit PvP ships until they've become familiar enough with the mechanisms and passive income streams to actually support it themselves.
So yeah, I take the point. They're inexperienced and didn't bother asking around.
Quaggan Stomp wrote:5. Gathering is too boring. Trying to get your own mats for manufacturing is boring to tears, yet you cant AFK cause of rats or other players. So...... back to the unprofitable missions ...
6. Too much external crap necessary to play the game. encyclopedias, API keys, apps like EFT. All this stuff needs to get canned. Everyone should be spending their time playing the game not looking stuff up on encyclopedias about it for the most part. It should all be self explanatory from within.
Probably because manufacturing is a viable profession. This is not like being a Paladin with Mining and Blacksmithing. This is like being a Blacksmith. Maybe they didn't understand that aspect of it?
As to reading and learning - complex systems are documented. Their other feedback is mostly explained by this point - for me at least. If they're unwilling to learn about the game you'd expect them to struggle with the parts that require learning and understanding.
It's a shame, but at least they learned about it in the trial and can move back to more instant, question mark driven games where they're led through the content. Fancy that, people enjoying a themepark style game. It happens! |
Ai Shun
1163
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Posted - 2014.02.28 00:11:00 -
[172] - Quote
Quaggan Stomp wrote:If a loss of a few most hardcore obsessed vets means the game gets better and larger and more people enjoy it and have fun, then why not ? CCP is a business and needs to make money, more enjoyable game = more players = more money
Well, no. That's not quite true. There is a concept of boutique MMOs. Personally I believe that EVE is too big to be considered in that bracket, but they have a well defined target audience and a well established presence, market and direction for their content.
You can take the rise and the fall of World of Warcraft as a good example of what would happen if your approach was taken with EVE. Pre Burning Crusade it was a game that required a certain degree of skill, despite the systems that were put in place to make the barrier to entry low. Now it has no barrier to entry and all of the game is accessible to everyone and they've gone from quarter on quarter growth to a state of near continuous decline.
To, foolishly, take it to a more real world example. You do not improve the market for an exclusive product by mass marketing it. There's a reason Ferrari has their market and Hyundai has theirs and while Hyundai's market is good, would you really want Ferrari to adopt a Hyundai approach to their vehicles?
I wouldn't. As long as EVE, as a boutique MMO remains viable, I think that's a well reasoned business plan. And let's face it - it has been viable and growing for the last decade! |
Aargolos
Estrale Frontiers Project Wildfire
42
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Posted - 2014.02.28 00:26:00 -
[173] - Quote
I guess the answer is easy, if you don't like it, go play STO. Nothing scary there, since there's nothing to lose.
I feel a rant coming on.
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Hadrian Blackstone
Barringtons Research
8
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Posted - 2014.02.28 00:47:00 -
[174] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:You heard it here first, folks. A tristan is a t1 frigate. Within MONTHS you'll be able to fly a t1 frigate around and start seeing results! Never mind it's a tier just above the rookie ship! No, you can fly it within hours. You can fly it perfectly within a couple months. And within those couple of months you'll have many of the skills needed to fly every other ship in the game well.
What does "perfectly' mean to you? Level V mastery? |
MicroWarpdrive II
Arrogance.
0
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Posted - 2014.02.28 00:56:00 -
[175] - Quote
When you're the top dog in another game joining a new one and being a scrub isn't that appealing- especially in a game like EVE where play time is really important. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
318
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Posted - 2014.02.28 01:50:00 -
[176] - Quote
MicroWarpdrive II wrote:When you're the top dog in another game joining a new one and being a scrub isn't that appealing- especially in a game like EVE where play time is really important.
no ... in EVE your experience and the contacts you have made is whats actually important.
Several of my alts have just a single months training and they are often more fun to play than my main that has all battleships to the 4/5 level.
Of course a new player is not that likely to be wandering around losec in a Republic Fleet Firetail but that is because they do not know the game, it has nothing to do with lack of SP.
ASIDE FROM WHICH .... if you really believe that bigger is always better, and with no personal experience of EVE you can be awesome in a battleship or super if only you had the skillz, then just spend the real world cash on the PLEX to buy a character with the skills. |
Ai Shun
1171
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Posted - 2014.02.28 02:17:00 -
[177] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:You heard it here first, folks. A tristan is a t1 frigate. Within MONTHS you'll be able to fly a t1 frigate around and start seeing results! Never mind it's a tier just above the rookie ship! No, you can fly it within hours. You can fly it perfectly within a couple months. And within those couple of months you'll have many of the skills needed to fly every other ship in the game well.
You know, the person you have quoted made an interesting statement. Thinking of ships in terms of tiers, e.g. Rookie, T1 Frigate, T2 Frigate, T1 Destroyer, etc. seems wrong, doesn't it?
They're not tiers, despite them being required that way in terms of skill training. They're different sizes and they have different tactical applications / roles in a fight. Think about fleet composition and what the different classes of marine ships would do.
I wonder if this is something CCP could present differently. But everything I consider just comes back to - you have to know how to fly a Frigate before you can fly a Cruiser. That makes sense. It's just new players need to understand that Frigates have a role and that some players may end up flying Frigates for life because that is the role they want to fulfil. |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
347
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Posted - 2014.02.28 02:35:00 -
[178] - Quote
Everyone I talk to and try to recruit is afraid of the learning curve first and foremost, despite me saying that its not that bad once you get into the game. I think its because mostly they are comfortable playing a game they completely understand. Probably doesn't help that many MMO articles written about EVE always talk about the steep learning curve I think it scares them off.
The second biggest gripe is "ill be useless" which again stems from the "level cap" type games which encourage rushing to endgame and bypassing years worth of content to reach relevancy. This one is easier to push aside because people seem to grasp the concept that a decently trained frigate has use in parts of the game in the form of scouting and tackling, but it still seems like a hill. The mindset is that they will never be as well off as a 10 year vet again I think equating it to the versatility that long term "level cap" players have vs new blood in games like WoW (multiple classes, lots of gold, trained skills etc.)
In addition to the above people seem to stress over tiers and ship sizes, and have a hard time I think placing ships in the hierarchy that is EVE. The concepts of "bigger is better" bred in "level cap" games has kind of pushed the mindset that if you can't fly a BS then you aren't going to be able to play the game. Despite discussing this with them this is a big mental hurdle for people to jump over I find.
Ive recruited about 10 people to the game in my time, of those 10 only 2 remain as "full time" players and 1-2 show up again every few months.
I think the biggest detractor is that CCP doesn't actively engage in promoting the things newer players can do, and generally leave it up to word of mouth. Unfortunately word of mouth from gaming sites tend to hammer on the negatives of being a new person. The learning curve is steep, its hard to make isk, training times can take up to a month. It doesn't help that the tutorial doesn't really provide direction to people, it essentially shows them a few things then leaves them sitting in the rookie system wondering what do I do now. The "level cap" games are very structured and essentially guide you by the hand in terms of where to go next and what you could be doing.
EVE and the sandbox style (while excellent when you understand it) kinda just push them into a pool and expect them to know how to swim, which results in many sitting in the shallow end until they become pruned and bored with only being submerged halfway, and because they never learned how to swim they just get out of the pool instead of checking out the deep end. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19716
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Posted - 2014.02.28 02:52:00 -
[179] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:I think the biggest detractor is that CCP doesn't actively engage in promoting the things newer players can do, and generally leave it up to word of mouth. Unfortunately word of mouth from gaming sites tend to hammer on the negatives of being a new person. The learning curve is steep, its hard to make isk, training times can take up to a month. It doesn't help that the tutorial doesn't really provide direction to people, it essentially shows them a few things then leaves them sitting in the rookie system wondering what do I do now. The "level cap" games are very structured and essentially guide you by the hand in terms of where to go next and what you could be doing. You have some pretty astute observations, I'd say. On this particular bit, though, would say that at least they've made some progress with a more informative website and with the ISIS. Neither is fully there yet, and even when they are they will need to be brought far more to the forefront, but it's a start. It looks like they've grasped that it's a problem and are (slowly) working on it.
Still, it's certainly something that could be hammered home sooner and harder than it is right now: that it's not a linear hierarchy, and the road to being effective can be frighteningly fast.
I can't remember where I saw it (TMC perhaps, but it feels older than that) but someone once wrote a GÇ£EVE for WoW playersGÇ¥ kind of blog: explaining EVE in terms of a more familiar game and taking special care to point out where, how, and why they could not be compared. Maybe that's something that could be done more formally and integrated into either the NPE or the promotional material. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
348
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Posted - 2014.02.28 03:12:00 -
[180] - Quote
Tippia wrote:I can't remember where I saw it (TMC perhaps, but it feels older than that) but someone once wrote a GÇ£EVE for WoW playersGÇ¥ kind of blog: explaining EVE in terms of a more familiar game and taking special care to point out where, how, and why they could not be compared. Maybe that's something that could be done more formally and integrated into either the NPE or the promotional material.
I remember reading an article of this nature but can't recall when or where. But the problem I had with it then and still do is that, while I agree they can not be compared, they are going to be compared. EVE is an MMO and it is going to be compared to other MMO's even if its actual operation is far removed from the traditional MMO.
I think one of the biggest improvements CCP could do is enhance tutorial on locating corporations, and agents. Teach new players how to search for corporations they might be interested in, and also teach them how to search for corporations/agents that might offer missions they show interest in.
I really feel the weakest part of the early game is that once you are done the tutorial, you get dumped into a rookie corp, and kinda flounder away wondering what you do next. I love the sandbox, but I strongly feel that there needs to be at least something that points out the different parts of the sandbox and shows players how to get to the areas they might be interested in. Even if that is just directing people to corporations that might suit them.
I know CCP shouldn't promote any player run corporations due to "fair play" and all that stuff, but there are definitely some very rookie friendly corporations in this game that should be given a nod in the tutorial. Places like UNI and RvB, it is hard to find a corporation as a new person, and without the social aspect it makes the game that much more unfriendly for new people to grow into.
Especially when the first chat you get stuck in is typically filled with AFK Alts, trolls, and scammers who overshadow the almost nonexistent helpful people. |
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