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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
214
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Posted - 2014.02.28 07:14:00 -
[31] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Solution: Make highsec mining not profitable enough to sustain an account all by itself. I think I missed the part where you defined a problem. What is that a solution to? |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
2858
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Posted - 2014.02.28 07:50:00 -
[32] - Quote
Here's my thought on the batter.
CCP really wanted to find a place for loot spew. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
suid0
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
124
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Posted - 2014.02.28 08:21:00 -
[33] - Quote
scimichar wrote:This would mean more "bot" miners. A normal human miner wouldn't do it if it were not profitable. Therefore all that is left will be the bots. As it is mining makes mere pennies compared to other professions.
Pretty much this... the entire enemy support fleet is dead except for one interdictor a titan could easily finish off with drones -á--áCommander Ted |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
1815
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Posted - 2014.02.28 08:30:00 -
[34] - Quote
This thread is further proof that TEST is only good at losing sov. |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
403
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Posted - 2014.02.28 09:00:00 -
[35] - Quote
scimichar wrote:This would mean more "bot" miners. A normal human miner wouldn't do it if it were not profitable. Therefore all that is left will be the bots. As it is mining makes mere pennies compared to other professions.
Since this is basically how things were 2 years ago, it can't be disproven or argued. This is what has happened and what will happen again if highsec profit drops again. Thread is a dead horse. - Mission Overhaul - Bridging the PVP / PVE Gap - -áIf the game stops teaching people to fear lowsec, maybe people will start going there? |
Jint Hikaru
Truly Transdimensional The Nova Foundry
1123
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Posted - 2014.02.28 09:04:00 -
[36] - Quote
Not I havent read all the replies in this thread, but all I see when reading the OP is 'nerf HiSec',
I would be willing to bet that there are more BOT-miners in zerosec that in hisec. (Could be wrong here)
Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. |
Systemlord Rah
All Inclusive SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2
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Posted - 2014.02.28 09:25:00 -
[37] - Quote
thats the wrong way miners need alot more time than other proffesions for a plex besides you see all things black or white its true mining is not so aktive there are botters ,Multiboxing Monsters
and normal Multiboxers with around 2-8 accs so what our isk are to much in your eyes
you my friend need to life as a miner for one month and try to mine your plex
simple math with OPTIMAL NUMBERS
20.000.000 ISK/h *2h per day *30 days = 600.000.000 and now say me that a normal guy can maintain a mining acc per plex or buy his ships and i did not consider emty belts other miners gankers etc |
Anhenka
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
259
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Posted - 2014.02.28 09:34:00 -
[38] - Quote
Systemlord Rah wrote: Wrawr, bad man for proposing anything that negatively impacts miners, bad terrible man!
Reading is hard, writing is harder. Read the thread before spouting semi-coherent anger everywhere. Also take a min before posting so that people can read what you write without having to try and fit it together like a puzzle.
We are already well past the original terrible idea of "Get rid of highsec miners"
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
985
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Posted - 2014.02.28 11:12:00 -
[39] - Quote
Systemlord Rah wrote:you my friend need to life as a miner for one month and try to mine your plex I know it takes a pretty small fraction of the month. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
258
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Posted - 2014.02.28 11:20:00 -
[40] - Quote
Koffin Nail wrote:wrong, wrong and wrong...
want to remove the bots or at least lower the amount of them, increase the difficulty. Take rats from null, put them in empire. Deep null, BS rats that hit like a freight train, eat hammerheads like munchies.
Win/Win miners learn how to tank, and defend, have backup to kill rats. Can't afk without risking loss of ship to rats.
Yeah Null ratting in Highsec! What could go possible go wrong?! |
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
985
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Posted - 2014.02.28 11:27:00 -
[41] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:Yeah Null ratting in Highsec! What could go possible go wrong?! I think null ratting in highsec is a bad idea, but I do feel that the difficulty of rats shouldn't drop so suddenly at 0.5 sec. 0.5 and 0.6 should frequently have cruiser rats not much weaker than lowsec, and 0.7 should have destroyer rats maybe. Only 0.8 and 0.9 should have those weak rats you just ignore. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
Systemlord Rah
All Inclusive SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2
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Posted - 2014.02.28 12:06:00 -
[42] - Quote
did you read my post
i did the math for you again if you play 2h per day with 20mio per h then you need for a plex
16 days and that with optimal numbers without ganks or other investions
if you consider half a month "a pretty small fraction of the month." ok
i think the normal miner if he dosnt have to much free time mines around 1-2 1/2 h per day besides 20mio per hour in empire alone without boost holy crap i go to empire and mine there
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Tsobai Hashimoto
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
192
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Posted - 2014.02.28 12:32:00 -
[43] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Oh dear Cthulu no. While it would be nice if mineral prices dropped a bit, I'd rather it was by giving active paying attention miners a way to increase yield through interaction, increasing mineral flow that way. But this idea.... this is impressive in a truly Razzie fashion. Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Mining in highsec will not be very profitable, and it shouldn't be. It takes very little work and is easily done by bots or mostly AFK. It should pay accordingly.
It already pays peanuts. Really. 20-25 mil an hour for a highly skilled solo miner actively scanning rocks and adjusting cycle lengths? With less for a partially afk miner? Forget that. You can make quadruple that in FW with the same SP. If someone wants to rot their brain out semi-afk mining for less isk per hour than I can count on my fingers and toes (in millions), then they are welcome to do so.
X4? try X10 almost..............can pull in 200-250k LP an hour hehe |
DSpite Culhach
293
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Posted - 2014.02.28 13:09:00 -
[44] - Quote
You know the "hacking game" and the "loot spew" mechanics people keep talking about?
Stick that as the "mining interface".
Try automating those suckers. I apparently have no idea what I'm doing. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
223
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Posted - 2014.02.28 13:24:00 -
[45] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:You know the "hacking game" and the "loot spew" mechanics people keep talking about?
Stick that as the "mining interface".
Try automating those suckers.
You must *really* hate miners :D |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
237
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Posted - 2014.02.28 13:29:00 -
[46] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:You know the "hacking game" and the "loot spew" mechanics people keep talking about?
Stick that as the "mining interface".
Try automating those suckers.
So, you want to put something you don't like in one part of the game and slap it onto another part? That's hilarious.
Also, who do you think mines all the trit to keep your ships affordable? Who doesn't really care about gankers banking all your mining ops on all sec levels? Who continues mining day in, day out so that ****** PVPers don't have to do it? Its the bots that keep your limited world perspective running. Remove that part entirely from the game and you lose the very material that keeps it running. Because real people care what happens to their ships and don't continue doing things that others always ruin without thinking about the implications.
Besides, your logic has once again a huge flaw: if botters were to be removed by whatever change to mechanics, and taking into consideration that stupid players don't become less stupid over night, prices would rise sky high and botters would be rentable once again. So, no change at all. |
Fatal Amelana
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2014.02.28 13:39:00 -
[47] - Quote
What if i like mining ? It doesn't bother you because you want something. Right :D |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1481
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Posted - 2014.02.28 14:12:00 -
[48] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:You know the "hacking game" and the "loot spew" mechanics people keep talking about?
Stick that as the "mining interface".
Try automating those suckers.
It won't be bit of a problem for bots unless they're using computers from 1980. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Test Alliance Please Ignore
564
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Posted - 2014.02.28 15:48:00 -
[49] - Quote
Increasing prevalence of low-ends in hisec would have at most a very minimal effect on the economy. Mining is based on cubic meters per cycle, not amount of units. Increasing the amount of ore available won't increase the amount mined. The ore in a belt is worth nothing until someone mines it.
Now, making T1 things cheaper would have an effect by reducing demand for minerals. But this won't reduce botting much. Botting is done because mining is a mind-numbing task with very little interaction, and thus is easily and more efficiently done by bots.
If there is anything in Eve that needs a mini-game, it is mining.
Also, captchas are ********. They have no place in Eve. CCP can do better than that. Free Ripley Weaver! |
DSpite Culhach
295
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Posted - 2014.03.01 01:25:00 -
[50] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:You know the "hacking game" and the "loot spew" mechanics people keep talking about?
Stick that as the "mining interface".
Try automating those suckers. So, you want to put something you don't like in one part of the game and slap it onto another part? That's hilarious. Also, who do you think mines all the trit to keep your ships affordable? Who doesn't really care about gankers banking all your mining ops on all sec levels? Who continues mining day in, day out so that ****** PVPers don't have to do it? Its the bots that keep your limited world perspective running. Remove that part entirely from the game and you lose the very material that keeps it running. Because real people care what happens to their ships and don't continue doing things that others always ruin without thinking about the implications. Besides, your logic has once again a huge flaw: if botters were to be removed by whatever change to mechanics, and taking into consideration that stupid players don't become less stupid over night, prices would rise sky high and botters would be rentable once again. So, no change at all.
Woah, easy there.
I did not mean "make the mining interface a living hell for miners", I simply meant that CCP is apparently capable of making some new UI's that require quite a bit of selective clicking that would be hard to automate.
It would be a lot harder if an automation program had to deal with even a simple "minigame" in order to select and start a mining beam on a new asteroid. Pretty sure you could make it next to impossible as well, just by messing with their ability to deal with patterns and colours. I apparently have no idea what I'm doing. |
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DSpite Culhach
295
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Posted - 2014.03.01 01:30:00 -
[51] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:You know the "hacking game" and the "loot spew" mechanics people keep talking about?
Stick that as the "mining interface".
Try automating those suckers. It won't be bit of a problem for bots unless they're using computers from 1980.
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/ I apparently have no idea what I'm doing. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
2878
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Posted - 2014.03.01 01:42:00 -
[52] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:You know the "hacking game" and the "loot spew" mechanics people keep talking about?
Stick that as the "mining interface".
Try automating those suckers. You must *really* hate miners :D
I suggested it on page 2. And it's not about hating miners. Mining is the single most botted activity in the game, period.
If they want to kill that, then putting loot spew on it would kill bot mining. The "real" miners wouldn't be effected, assuming that there are any.
It would fit the mechanic more than it does data and relic sites, that's for certain. Think old school Asteroids. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
988
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Posted - 2014.03.01 06:38:00 -
[53] - Quote
Systemlord Rah wrote:if you consider half a month "a pretty small fraction of the month." ok Half a month at 2 hours per day is a whole month at 1 hour per day, or 1/24th of a month. It is completely unreasonable to assume bots mine for only 2 hours per day when they could easily mine for 23-+. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
Sentinel zx
34
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Posted - 2014.03.01 09:26:00 -
[54] - Quote
no reducing Highsec Minerals would solve nothing, Bots are everywhere
Instead of reducing Highsec Minerals i would rather
-replacing all static belts with small Veldspar asteroids and not mining able Rocks with some Ship wrecks in it - putting more random Grave sites -they will respawn every 3h after they are depleted -making Belts smaller (bigger and fewer Asteroids) -turning miners to Nomads, moving from system to system scanning for sites for mining
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Sigras
Conglomo
688
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Posted - 2014.03.01 09:44:00 -
[55] - Quote
I dont think you really know how the market in Eve works...
The market will reach an equilibrium no matter what you do to it. This means if you lower the value of asteroids in high sec, less and less people will do it until there is a mineral shortage which will increase the price until people start to do it again.
Also, if you somehow do make it worth less to mine then less humans will mine and more bots will do it because bots dont care what their isk/hour is and they dont get bored. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
239
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Posted - 2014.03.01 09:57:00 -
[56] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:Woah, easy there.
I did not mean "make the mining interface a living hell for miners", I simply meant that CCP is apparently capable of making some new UI's that require quite a bit of selective clicking that would be hard to automate.
It would be a lot harder if an automation program had to deal with even a simple "minigame" in order to select and start a mining beam on a new asteroid. Pretty sure you could make it next to impossible as well, just by messing with their ability to deal with patterns and colours.
Don't forget that most people who play games are not exactly Einsteins or Hawkings. Having to solve a minigame every time you want to activate your mining laser can be ... straining, to say the least.
"Kaarous Aldurald " wrote: I suggested it on page 2. And it's not about hating miners. Mining is the single most botted activity in the game, period.
If they want to kill that, then putting loot spew on it would kill bot mining. The "real" miners wouldn't be effected, assuming that there are any.
And so is the production in our contemporary industry. Repetitive work asks for automation and whatever process changes you do to it, it always condensates down to being a repetitive process.
How do you want to see loot spew on asteroids implemented? They are not exactly wrecks or containers with sophisticated throw out mechanisms. And how does loot spew not affect real miners? Even with the spew in Data/Relic sites people have been complaining that they miss out on huge parts of the exploits because it spews in weirdest directions and drifts out of range too fast. This would be even worse of a problem with mining barges, which are significantly slower and less agile than CovOps or T3.
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Dave Stark
4448
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Posted - 2014.03.01 10:15:00 -
[57] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Bot mining is extremely common because it is more than possible to mine enough income in highsec to plex the account using a simple computer program that can run the mining operation.
Solution: Make highsec mining not profitable enough to sustain an account all by itself.
Economic reaction: Nearly all highsec bot mining operations will disappear; the majority of remaining highsec bot miners will be characters that are used for other things as well. The only remaining characters devoted entirely to botting will have operators who run other passive income sources as well to suplement their income.
How to accomplish this: Reduce the demand for highsec minerals. Dramatically increase the prevalence of minerals tritanium, pyerite, mexallon, and isogen.
If normal players could mine in highsec enough for their own ships in their off time, then highsec mineral income would plummet. The economy could not sustain lots of bot miners because there simply wouldn't be enough demand for those minerals. A lot of manufacturers would refuse to pay large amounts of ISK for their minerals when they could just go mine them in a short amount of time.
infinitely better solution; ban the bots. |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
668
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Posted - 2014.03.01 20:04:00 -
[58] - Quote
Unfortuneately the OP is rather an extreme solution, pretty much burning down your house to stop the birds roosting on the roof. If CCP were determined to root out bots, then I am sure they would have succeeded by now. It is more likely that they accept it as part of the overall economy by now. If not it is not beyond their means to implement some random event that requires a level of thought to deal with. After all we have Gankers, professing to be on a war against bots who seem to kill a lot more players than automaton. Even when they are begging them to stop in local. So that's not any better a solution. It would be interesting to know just how many people are actually botting or if it is an urban legend, used to justify questionable behaviour and agendas? It is not our job to do CCP's for them. If they find it a problem and they want to fix it, then that's fine.
Or is it just another stealth nerf hisec thread? There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
264
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Posted - 2014.03.01 20:13:00 -
[59] - Quote
Sigras wrote:I dont think you really know how the market in Eve works...
The market will reach an equilibrium no matter what you do to it. This means if you lower the value of asteroids in high sec, less and less people will do it until there is a mineral shortage which will increase the price until people start to do it again.
Also, if you somehow do make it worth less to mine then less humans will mine and more bots will do it because bots dont care what their isk/hour is and they dont get bored. Yes, there will always be an equilibrium for supply and demand. However the effects of the change on other things is what doesn't recover.
And while equilibrium may be attained, that doesnt mean the new point is anywhere near where it started.
And agree on that last part. The fact that it's there's no correlation between interaction and reward makes it a prime breeding ground for bots. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
990
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Posted - 2014.03.01 20:18:00 -
[60] - Quote
Sentinel zx wrote:no reducing Highsec Minerals would solve nothing, Bots are everywhere
Instead of reducing Highsec Minerals i would rather
-replacing all static belts with small Veldspar asteroids and not mining able Rocks with some Ship wrecks in it - putting more random Grave sites -they will respawn every 3h after they are depleted -making Belts smaller (bigger and fewer Asteroids) -turning miners to Nomads, moving from system to system scanning for sites for mining I didn't say reduce minerals, I was saying increase them. A LOT. But I like your idea too. I think that:
1.) regular asteroid belts shouldn't run out of ore very easily, but shouldn't have a lot to mine either. So I would make them large and expansive, with lots of large asteroids spaced rather far apart and of a low yield type. Bots would either have to slowboat a lot, fly a venture, or learn to make bookmarks with other ships. Even if they do the last one, they still have lower yield than players.
2.) Instead of +5% and +10% yield types in other areas, there should be +25% and +50% yield types. Asteroid belts could have some of these to make them interesting, but they would be small. +25% would be common in grav sites as well as in asteroid belts of a security status much lower than the ore type. +50% would be common in grav sites much lower in security status than the ore.
3.) Gravimetric sites containing ore should not be scannable with the on-board scanner. Bots can use it. Or maybe some could be scanned with the on-board scanner but they would have ore similar to the belts. The big difference could be deadspace pocket at the cost of smaller asteroids - giving an advantage to venture pilots.
4.) Increase demand for nullsec minerals and decrease demand for tritanium and pyerite. Highsec mining should produce several orders of magnitude less income than deep nullsec mining, given the multiple layers of defense required to sustain nullsec mining, which dramatically reduces its efficiency.
All you people out there who think nullsec mining happens oh so much, I don't think you've really been out there. Most of the people who mine in nullsec do it either because they like mining or because there isn't much else going on at the moment, usually both. For most folks, the amount they mine doesn't even come close to sustaining their industry and they must resort to ISK income sources and drawing minerals from highsec.
I'm sure there are bots that mine in nullsec. They live in large groups and are probably owned by the folks who were running them back when it was easy to start doing because it was a lot safer. Now they have a lot of non-bots who maintain their sovereignty and defend their space. Even those botters probably rely significantly on other income sources though they must be efficient enough to actually be making a profit with the mining operations. They do have a huge advantage though, they were there a long time ago and have their infrastructure all set up. What you don't see is new bots running down to nullsec to start mining. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
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