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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
990
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Posted - 2014.03.01 20:30:00 -
[61] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Unfortuneately the OP is rather an extreme solution, pretty much burning down your house to stop the birds roosting on the roof. If CCP were determined to root out bots, then I am sure they would have succeeded by now. It is more likely that they accept it as part of the overall economy by now. You say that as if the house is the only part of the land that is habitable. If the birds are enough of a problem, torching the house may be an effective treatment. It's not something you mourn over and whine about, you torch the house and get it done with. No birds, no problem.
I am certain CCP accepts bots as part of the economy. Given the amount of time it takes to whip up some building materials, it is a given that players will not want to be counted on to do it themselves. There was no way around it initially when the game was released. But I think the right direction to move in is any way that causes players to produce more for themselves without forcing them to work any harder. Slow and gradual steps is good. Maybe someday bot mining will be uncommon.
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Or is it just another stealth nerf hisec thread? I didn't intend it to be stealth. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
DSpite Culhach
298
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Posted - 2014.03.01 23:43:00 -
[62] - Quote
As I have mentioned in other posts, I am becoming really wary to suggest fixes to just "hisec problems".
On that note, EVE mining seems to be the least developed mechanic in the game. All I can say on the subject is that it would be nice if the whole system was revamped a bit.
In my opinion, a player that is active at the keyboard while mining should be able to pull more ore than one that starts the process and goes and reads a book. Don't get me wrong, BOTH methods should be a valid way to mine, but one should reward you more, the billion ISK question is how to do that, and since I heard about ring mining, I'd been awaiting to see if that was going to be the way. One day. I apparently have no idea what I'm doing. |
KiithSoban
Big Johnson's
37
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Posted - 2014.03.02 01:44:00 -
[63] - Quote
Perhaps I don't understand.
How does production currently work? Do you need a portion of your materials from highsec ores and a portion from lowsec/nullsec ores? Is the proportion of these materials out of balance? Is that what you are suggesting?
I know t2 production is like this, but can you build my thorax with 100% highsec materials? I want to see logi appear on killmails! (by just repping)-á See CSM "reasonable things" |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
264
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Posted - 2014.03.02 01:51:00 -
[64] - Quote
KiithSoban wrote:Perhaps I don't understand.
How does production currently work? Do you need a portion of your materials from highsec ores and a portion from lowsec/nullsec ores? Is the proportion of these materials out of balance? Is that what you are suggesting?
I know t2 production is like this, but can you build my thorax with 100% highsec materials? No. Some o the higher end minerals need to be mined out of null. You could essentially make everything in null since all the roids availibl are there. |
Anhenka
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
267
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Posted - 2014.03.02 01:56:00 -
[65] - Quote
KiithSoban wrote:Perhaps I don't understand.
How does production currently work? Do you need a portion of your materials from highsec ores and a portion from lowsec/nullsec ores? Is the proportion of these materials out of balance? Is that what you are suggesting?
I know t2 production is like this, but can you build my thorax with 100% highsec materials?
You do need some low/null minerals, yeah. Not a lot though. That's supposed to be the draw to bring people to null/low to mine.
Everything works perfectly fine as is. OP just seems to think that A: All highsec miners are botters, B: There are no botters in null, and C: Removing the need to mine highsec ores wouldn't wreck the game economy.
Wrong on all three accounts ofc. It was a stupendously bad idea when he posted it and it has not gotten any better since.
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Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
366
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Posted - 2014.03.02 02:02:00 -
[66] - Quote
OP really didn't think this through.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Ole Gato
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2014.03.02 04:29:00 -
[67] - Quote
Is there any way to tell if a miner is running a bot or not? I mean for a player that is. If I come into an area and see a mining barge how do you know if this a bot or not?
Using a bot - when an asteroid is mined out does the bot just switch to the next asteroid or does it do scanning to select the type of ore it is looking for?
If the bot just moves to the next asteroid then maybe seed some low yield asteroids in the belt. You would need to scan the asteroid or highlight it and pull up info on the asteroid to see a density figure. Otherwise you could sit there for hours and get very little ore. Instead of xxx per 60 second revolution you would only get 1 tenth of that from a low yield asteroid.
But I am still so new to this game that I haven't even found the bathroom yet - nor the save game feature
BYW - where is the nearest Starbucks :)
And I could have been an adventurer like you but then I took an asteroid in the knee |
Anhenka
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
269
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Posted - 2014.03.02 05:03:00 -
[68] - Quote
Ole Gato wrote:Is there any way to tell if a miner is running a bot or not? I mean for a player that is. If I come into an area and see a mining barge how do you know if this a bot or not? Using a bot - when an asteroid is mined out does the bot just switch to the next asteroid or does it do scanning to select the type of ore it is looking for? If the bot just moves to the next asteroid then maybe seed some low yield asteroids in the belt. You would need to scan the asteroid or highlight it and pull up info on the asteroid to see a density figure. Otherwise you could sit there for hours and get very little ore. Instead of xxx per 60 second revolution you would only get 1 tenth of that from a low yield asteroid. But I am still so new to this game that I haven't even found the bathroom yet - nor the save game feature BYW - where is the nearest Starbucks :) And I could have been an adventurer like you but then I took an asteroid in the knee
You really can't without doing something aggravating enough to make an actual person speak up in local. A miner mining everything looks just that same as a bot. If Identification was as simple as a big neon sign above their head CCP would have banned them all easily.
There are lots of theories about how to get rid of them, but most of them are terrible and would either swiftly be bypassed by the bot software or make mining too aggravating for everyone else, or both.
CCP's ongoing progress in refining auto-detection programs for botting is the best bet long term, and frankly I don't think it's that big of a problem anyway. |
Baneken
The Scope Gallente Federation
147
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Posted - 2014.03.02 10:45:00 -
[69] - Quote
Requirements for a thanatos from an me 0 prod eff. V prints:
Tritanium 69 888 997 Pyerite 17 080 304 Mexallon 6 393 846 Isogen 996 807 Nocxium 281 781 Zydrine 50 677 Megacyte 21 792
So mostly trit and in huge quantities for super caps you don't mine you buy t1 crap and fill your JF with those and drop them to null and reprocess because with this scale you need a freighter loads (literally) of processed minerals.
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Dave Stark
4449
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Posted - 2014.03.02 14:57:00 -
[70] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:In my opinion, a player that is active at the keyboard while mining should be able to pull more ore than one that starts the process and goes and reads a book.
that already happens, it's called mining crystals. |
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Mobins
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.03.02 16:14:00 -
[71] - Quote
What about a NPC mining "negotiator" that shows up in the belt (not every time of course, but once every so often)?
The "trick" would be to use a random UI (elements and questions) for these negotiations, making it difficult to program a macro.
If you are a player, you simply agree to the terms of the negotiations and they'll go away.
If you're a bot which would have difficulties responding, the ships' strip miners are infected with a lock down virus, until negotiations have concluded. At this time negotiations will have to be continued in a system station, where a station negotiator can be called upon.
A player would be given plenty of opportunity to respond, since a bot don't care about time so much anyways. If a player happens to get their strips disabled, simple enter a station and complete negotiations.
A bot on the other hand would be forced to continue with the strip miners not functioning, amk.
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Dave Stark
4455
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Posted - 2014.03.02 18:37:00 -
[72] - Quote
Mobins wrote:What about a NPC mining "negotiator" that shows up in the belt (not every time of course, but once every so often)?
The "trick" would be to use a random UI (elements and questions) for these negotiations, making it difficult to program a macro.
If you are a player, you simply agree to the terms of the negotiations and they'll go away.
If you're a bot which would have difficulties responding, the ships' strip miners are infected with a lock down virus, until negotiations have concluded. At this time negotiations will have to be continued in a system station, where a station negotiator can be called upon.
A player would be given plenty of opportunity to respond, since a bot don't care about time so much anyways. If a player happens to get their strips disabled, simple enter a station and complete negotiations.
A bot on the other hand would be forced to continue with the strip miners not functioning, amk.
this is a prime example of "let's make the game **** for players to pretend we're doing something about bots". just ban the bots instead of making mining even more **** for real players. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
993
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Posted - 2014.03.03 06:49:00 -
[73] - Quote
Rowells wrote:KiithSoban wrote:Perhaps I don't understand.
How does production currently work? Do you need a portion of your materials from highsec ores and a portion from lowsec/nullsec ores? Is the proportion of these materials out of balance? Is that what you are suggesting?
I know t2 production is like this, but can you build my thorax with 100% highsec materials? No. Some o the higher end minerals need to be mined out of null. You could essentially make everything in null since all the roids availibl are there. You could if much mining happened there, but it's inefficient so most of the minerals come from highsec and most of what isn't available in highsec comes from sources other than mining. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
278
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Posted - 2014.03.03 07:04:00 -
[74] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Rowells wrote:KiithSoban wrote:Perhaps I don't understand.
How does production currently work? Do you need a portion of your materials from highsec ores and a portion from lowsec/nullsec ores? Is the proportion of these materials out of balance? Is that what you are suggesting?
I know t2 production is like this, but can you build my thorax with 100% highsec materials? No. Some o the higher end minerals need to be mined out of null. You could essentially make everything in null since all the roids availibl are there. You could if much mining happened there, but it's inefficient so most of the minerals come from highsec and most of what isn't available in highsec comes from sources other than mining. I don't think it's necessarily inneficient so much as an oppurtunity cost. I know my corp has been pushing for some lower end ores to be mined simply because we don't have enough trit, pyrite, and mexalon to make any ships. Most of the members prefer to mine the higher value ores since they will make more money that way. I know i'm taking a big hit in my income (without reducing any risk) by not mining my precious dark glitter, but it's necessary if we want to pay all the bills on time.
There's all the same low-end ores in null as there is in highsec and mining them close to home is cheaper, even easier if mine things like spodumain which has a lot of the higher demand minerals needed for the bulk of manufacturing needs. It's like mining copper in a gold mine. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
993
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Posted - 2014.03.03 07:07:00 -
[75] - Quote
Baneken wrote:Requirements for a thanatos from an me 0 prod eff. V prints:
Tritanium 69 888 997 - 2.327 mil m3 Veldspar Pyerite 17 080 304 - 2.051 mil m3 Scordite Mexallon 6 393 846 - 2.911 mil m3 Plagioclase Isogen 996 807 - 0.974 mil m3 Omber Nocxium 281 781 - 0.997 mil m3 Hemorphite Zydrine 50 677 - 306 k m3 Crokite Megacyte 21 792 - 209 k m3 Arkonor
So mostly trit and in huge quantities for super caps you don't mine you buy t1 crap and fill your JF with those and drop them to null and reprocess because with this scale you need a freighter loads (literally) of processed minerals.
added ore volumes Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
Tauranon
Weeesearch Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
820
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Posted - 2014.03.03 07:13:00 -
[76] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:So then the high end mineral costs should be increased.
Which will increase the 1 person, 25 character mining fleets in null, and won't reduce botting.
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Qalix
Long Jump.
142
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Posted - 2014.03.03 19:35:00 -
[77] - Quote
A solution in search of a problem. Is TEST really that desperate for cheap minerals? |
Batelle
HOMELE55
2039
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Posted - 2014.03.03 19:40:00 -
[78] - Quote
If you're not from team security, then I don't really care what your opinion on botting is. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Pew Terror
Green Associates
101
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Posted - 2014.03.03 20:30:00 -
[79] - Quote
Mining Minigame on par with hacking. Mining fixed. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1483
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Posted - 2014.03.03 20:34:00 -
[80] - Quote
Pew Terror wrote:Mining Minigame on par with hacking. Mining fixed.
He're a better idea, remove the hacking "game".
Some of us play MMOs to compete with other people, not to fight some boring minigame that takes our attention off nearby player ships. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
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Dan Rae
EVE University Ivy League
16
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Posted - 2014.03.03 20:35:00 -
[81] - Quote
I could be wrong, but isn't there an entire corp or maybe even alliance that is dedicated to making the lives of hi-sec miners completely miserable, including those that bot? something to do with a CODE and a guy called James or some such, I hear anyway.
The OP should join that corp, problem solved! |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
520
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Posted - 2014.03.03 21:23:00 -
[82] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Bot mining is extremely common. How would you know? ...prove your case first. I contend that it's not common. In fact, I contend that 90% of the time those who you claim are bots are not bots at all. Why don't you define what you mean by "bot" in the first place.. because if I have to go by this thread it means different things to different people.
Quote:Solution: Make highsec mining not profitable enough to sustain an account all by itself. Already been tried. High sec has been nerfed ad infinite with the result that many just step up their game to work harder and smarter. You say that people will just stop trying to make a profit? There is no proof that this is the case but lets say for the sake of this paragraph that your unlikely hypothesis that mining in high sec is out of control rampant and the only reason is because of cheap plexing and huge profits in high sec. Still the cost of plex has more than doubled over the last two years and is still rising and that hasn't slowed the envy or bigotry from those in null sec, causing them to claim everyone in high sec is a bot. Some years ago, before PLEX was a thing, low end minerals were less than half what they are now.. complaints about "botting" were just as prevalent. So lets fix that by reducing all high sec industry to a zero gain state; no one can make any isk at all in high sec. There are many players who have no place in null sec..at all; they cannot and do not want to compete there nor do they wish to become a conglomerate slave - what happens to them under this draconian plan? They leave the game because they no longer have time or money to even partially pay for it and why pay for a game that is no longer fun at all because you have no place. Face it, there are many corps that run high sec industry without botting they have a niche..you would kill it.
Quote:Economic reaction: Nearly all highsec bot mining operations will disappear; the majority of remaining highsec bot miners will be characters that are used for other things as well. No, all high sec mining will disappear altogether. Normal high sec players already do many things to make money including mining, manufacture, incursion, missions, PI (less than they used to thanks to ungodly nerfs and POCO over taxation), and trade. The average high sec player is smart when it comes to scraping even the smallest margin out of a high sec processes. At the point that high sec mining is no longer cost effective they will purchase null sec basic ores for a higher rate.. and just jack up the prices on everything they make that you buy. There will be no sucking sound of players rushing to live in null sec; there will just be a lot of unmined material. Again, you could end high sec completely and players will just quit.
Quote:How to accomplish this: Reduce the demand for highsec minerals. Dramatically increase the prevalence of minerals tritanium, pyerite, mexallon, and isogen. Really? belts of low end ore are already so plentiful that they are not all completely mined by any stretch of the imagination. There are belts in anomalies, there are signature belts, there are belts in missions.. plus there are normal belts.. then too, there are reprocessing minerals that come from unneeded loot - much of this goes unmined. Still, most of the value in manufacturing does not come from the prices on low end minerals. it's the skill of the mid-level indy corp that makes it profitable. These high sec corps will still mines like crazy and make a profit. You could completely do away with all manufacturing materials in game and the result would be people leaving the game in droves. Do not forget that most eve players play in high sec.Quote:If normal players could mine in highsec enough for their own ships in their off time, then high-sec mineral income would plummet. The economy could not sustain lots of bot miners because there simply wouldn't be enough demand for those minerals. You just said that most people would just mine what they need.. which is not true. As I've already pointed out the minerals exist and are not mined now. Creating more minerals would not spur more pilots to mine for their own ships unless the mining became faster, reducing the time they need to spend to gain the minerals; they do not want to mine even the currently available minerals nor would they want to on principle.
Bots are really not the problem they once were...at least not in high sec. I know this because I am a stay at home mom who mines many hours a day in high sec.. I know these people that you call bots. They multi box...they mine long hours. but they do not use any third party support software to gain an advantage. You seek to punish them because you are jealous, because you think you are doing something to make the game better, because you are greedy and see profit in doing away with high sec. The bottom line is your suggestion would be bad for the game and the majority of the players who do not bot. I vote "no" on this idea. -á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á-
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
Dave Stark
4455
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Posted - 2014.03.03 22:43:00 -
[83] - Quote
Pew Terror wrote:Mining Minigame on par with hacking. Mining fixed.
i look forward to the mini game you have to complete every time your guns cycle, that will be a fun one. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
522
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Posted - 2014.03.03 22:57:00 -
[84] - Quote
Quote:Pew Terror wrote: Mining Minigame on par with hacking. Mining fixed. ...and how would that work out for multi-boxers? or is your purpose to make multi-boxing impossible even though it is not against the EULA and is even encouraged by CCP?
I'm all in favor of new types of valuable ore with new types of mining that incorporate mini-games but not such that they replace all current mining. -á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á-
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
80
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Posted - 2014.03.04 02:59:00 -
[85] - Quote
The solution appears to be elusive yet simple. Disable auto cycle from mining lasers including strips. means all miners must at the keyboard. ergo anybody not at the keyboard is a bot - then kill with antimatter. Problem solved. And this can be done by dev in a heartbeat. Why waste devs time with extravagance for mere miners when they would not appreciate it? There are better and more worthy things in this game deserving attention. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
2913
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Posted - 2014.03.04 03:13:00 -
[86] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Pew Terror wrote:Mining Minigame on par with hacking. Mining fixed. i look forward to the mini game you have to complete every time your guns cycle, that will be a fun one.
Keep on defending botting, bro. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á
Psychotic Monk for CSM9.
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Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
278
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Posted - 2014.03.04 03:48:00 -
[87] - Quote
GetSirrus wrote:The solution appears to be elusive yet simple. Disable auto cycle from mining lasers including strips. means all miners must at the keyboard. ergo anybody not at the keyboard is a bot - then kill with antimatter. Problem solved. And this can be done by dev in a heartbeat. Why waste devs time with extravagance for mere miners when they would not appreciate it? There are better and more worthy things in this game deserving attention. So bots can't be programmed to re activate the strips similar to how they can lick and mine an asteroid under normal circumstances? You've solved nothing. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1486
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Posted - 2014.03.04 04:42:00 -
[88] - Quote
How about a minigame to make a forum post? ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
247
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Posted - 2014.03.04 05:18:00 -
[89] - Quote
GetSirrus wrote:The solution appears to be elusive yet simple. Disable auto cycle from mining lasers including strips. means all miners must at the keyboard. ergo anybody not at the keyboard is a bot - then kill with antimatter. Problem solved. And this can be done by dev in a heartbeat. Why waste devs time with extravagance for mere miners when they would not appreciate it? There are better and more worthy things in this game deserving attention.
Mere miners? You Mam deserve the Darwin Award for being so dense, even Black Holes go green with envy. I hope you never ever fly a real ship again and do all your business from now on in a Pod or a Rookie ship with its included fitting and nothing more, because your "mere miners" make everything else possible for you and you don't deserve anything they create. |
Oxide Ammar
78
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Posted - 2014.03.04 06:12:00 -
[90] - Quote
Sentinel zx wrote:no reducing Highsec Minerals would solve nothing, Bots are everywhere
Instead of reducing Highsec Minerals i would rather
-replacing all static belts with small Veldspar asteroids and not mining able Rocks with some Ship wrecks in it - putting more random Grave sites -they will respawn every 3h after they are depleted -making Belts smaller (bigger and fewer Asteroids) -turning miners to Nomads, moving from system to system scanning for sites for mining
Good luck buying Raven hull at 1 bill. |
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