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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
60
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Posted - 2014.03.09 15:01:00 -
[91] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:ships don't magically require less minerals because people are mining less. ships don't magically require more minerals because people are mining more. Because you've got it all mixed up! It's this way:
Most people would mine less if less minerals were needed. Most people would mine more if more minerals were needed.
Except, of course, people that mine 'just for the lulz'. Which % of EVE minerals would you say are mined by people who just enjoy mining no matter the profit (or opportunity cost)? |
Dave Stark
4482
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Posted - 2014.03.09 15:10:00 -
[92] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Dave Stark wrote:ships don't magically require less minerals because people are mining less. ships don't magically require more minerals because people are mining more. Because you've got it all mixed up! It's this way: Most people would mine less if less minerals were needed. Most people would mine more if more minerals were needed. Except, of course, people that mine 'just for the lulz'. Which % of EVE minerals would you say are mined by people who just enjoy mining no matter the profit (or opportunity cost)?
except that simply isn't true, as i've pointed out, because supply does not equal demand and vice versa.
If I'm trying to fill up 10 production lines, I need X minerals, and i don't care how much the miners are mining, i'm still going to need X minerals. my X minerals isn't influenced by how much miners are, or are not mining.
If people started mining less, i still need X minerals, not Y minerals where Y < X. supply =/= demand.
The same happens if miners start mining more. I'm still going to need X minerals, not Z minerals where Z > X. because once again, supply =/= demand. |
Dave Stark
4482
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Posted - 2014.03.09 15:11:00 -
[93] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:*EDIT: as a matter of fact, it IS also true that some people would buy that additional ship if more minerals were available, but the opposite is more straightforward to understand
no, they wouldn't buy that extra ship if more minerals were available. there isn't an extra ship to buy. Also, it has no bearing on the discussion even if there were an extra ship for them to buy. |
Arduemont
The State of War. Vendetta Mercenary Group
3126
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Posted - 2014.03.09 15:12:00 -
[94] - Quote
Mining does need to change. When I started playing, I mined. Many do. But I wouldn't dream of mining now. It's boring, unprofitable and risky. Not the kind of risky I like either.
Why would anyone create a task that is so mind numbingly boring that only the insane would do it at their keyboard, and then condemn and punish those who do it the only way it can be sanely done by making them easy targets for suicide ganking? The whole system is broken from the ground up.
I would like to want to mine. What ever happened to ring mining?
"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf |
Cheng Musana
Purple Space Ponys AAA Citizens
57
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Posted - 2014.03.09 15:16:00 -
[95] - Quote
more supply of minerals= more competition to sell the stuff. And usually the mineral price goes lower and at some point i will get a atron for 500ISK. |
Mathrin
Into the Ether Nulli Secunda
117
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Posted - 2014.03.09 15:29:00 -
[96] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Dave Stark wrote:ships don't magically require less minerals because people are mining less. ships don't magically require more minerals because people are mining more. Because you've got it all mixed up! It's this way*: Most people would mine less if less minerals were needed. Most people would mine more if more minerals were needed. Except, of course, people that mine 'just for the lulz'. Which % of EVE minerals would you say are mined by people who just enjoy mining no matter the profit (or opportunity cost)? *EDIT: as a matter of fact, it IS also true that some people would buy that additional ship if more minerals were available, but the opposite is more straightforward to understand
Dave has been right in his posts against his argument.
Infact we have seen been in a situation you are trying to point out. Currently trit is around 4 isk. There was a time it was around 2 isk. People don't have fewer isk because trit is twice as expensive as it used to be. Most don't even care how much trit, or the ship costs. They have their ways to make isk to PVP and that's that.
Speaking of ships I believe you made a comment about eve players not having a never ending stockpile of minerals. Look at the after effects of battleship changes on that point.
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Mathrin
Into the Ether Nulli Secunda
117
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Posted - 2014.03.09 15:32:00 -
[97] - Quote
I would be open to changing mining but I don't want to be some click intensive activity. When I mine it is to kick back and unwind, usually after work, sometimes durinf a movie. The most I have every enjoyed mining was when I was in null mining with alliance mates. The mining itself wasn't fun but chatting it up on ts made it enjoyable. |
Adela Talvanen
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
96
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Posted - 2014.03.09 19:10:00 -
[98] - Quote
Mining is relaxing, and if you in a belt being heavily mined you can watch what is going on around you. |
Your Dad Naked
State War Academy Caldari State
151
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Posted - 2014.03.09 20:36:00 -
[99] - Quote
Arduemont wrote:Mining does need to change. When I started playing, I mined. Many do. But I wouldn't dream of mining now. It's boring, unprofitable and risky. Not the kind of risky I like either.
Why would anyone create a task that is so mind numbingly boring that only the insane would do it at their keyboard, and then condemn and punish those who do it the only way it can be sanely done by making them easy targets for suicide ganking? The whole system is broken from the ground up.
I would like to want to mine. What ever happened to ring mining?
Pretty much, this.
The entirety of the time I spend at the keyboard while mining is for gank prevention. You know there's a problem when the only reason to play the game while playing the game is to make sure no one is blowing you up for not playing the game.
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Kurnautsis
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2014.03.09 20:51:00 -
[100] - Quote
The only thing mining needs are proper effects and scaling them. I find it very lame that Hulk lasers are much of a hissing penpoint lasers than any other ship(/module).
It really should scale toward more impressive effects as you get better mining equipment. The current hissing laser would be good for, say mining bargers, but exhumers should really have a bit of oomf in them. |
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DaReaper
Net 7 The Last Brigade
238
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Posted - 2014.03.10 04:18:00 -
[101] - Quote
Did not read all, but i guess i'm in the minority.. i enjoy mining, its what hooked me to eve. But with that said, it could use an overhaul. Ring mining, more interaction would be a bit more enjoyable at times. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
408
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Posted - 2014.03.10 05:35:00 -
[102] - Quote
The simplistic high school market analogies do not work in the real world never-lone EVE :D
A few minor points that throw a spanner in the equations: - reprocessing also provides minerals - many people mine semi afk while doing other things in real life so the opportunity cost is very low - for some minerals transport becomes a non-trivial part of the cost - there are stockpiles of tens of thousands of some ships (procurers for example) dating back to a time they could be produced very cheaply meaning these ships sell on market for well below actual current production cost - the market in most minerals is not deep enough to circumvent substantial price manipulation by bigger players (alliances) |
Aeryn Tiberius
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
12
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Posted - 2014.03.10 06:40:00 -
[103] - Quote
Erotica 1 wrote:Miners need a vacation. Please remove ore from the game for 30 days. Thanks.
Are you a troll? |
Rhatar Khurin
Happy Asteroid Ltd
547
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Posted - 2014.03.10 06:57:00 -
[104] - Quote
Mining is fine where it is atm i think, i don't really get bored whilst i'm doing it as often i'm drunk and talking rubbish in chat or watching a film on my other monitor. |
Kasife Vynneve
Capital Storm. The Storm Collective
21
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Posted - 2014.03.10 13:14:00 -
[105] - Quote
Goatman NotMyFault wrote:one thing EVE could do, was to make mining like PL
So only interested in hot dropping on big rocks?
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Morganta
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
1972
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Posted - 2014.03.10 16:53:00 -
[106] - Quote
because mining is boring?
mining should be the least appealing aspect of eve nobody wants to play "afk mining on-line" |
Regnag Leppod
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
16
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Posted - 2014.03.10 18:33:00 -
[107] - Quote
Morganta wrote:because mining is boring?
mining should be the least appealing aspect of eve nobody wants to play "afk mining on-line"
I have to disagree there. There seem to be a *lot* of people who want to play "afk mining on-line".
Mining needs to be a lot more involved, and more profitable (this by means of decreasing the amount of mining significantly). This will happen eventually when CCP removes Concord from the game, so that may be why they aren't doing anything with it. |
Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
194
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Posted - 2014.03.10 18:37:00 -
[108] - Quote
Watching the swarms on high-sec Icebelts is pretty disgusting tbh, and does indeed need a change of some sort. |
Dave Stark
4503
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Posted - 2014.03.10 18:55:00 -
[109] - Quote
Morganta wrote:because mining is boring?
no, you think mining is boring.
that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. there is, but how "fun" mining is, isn't the issue with it. |
Dave Stark
4503
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Posted - 2014.03.10 18:56:00 -
[110] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Watching the swarms on high-sec Icebelts is pretty disgusting tbh, and does indeed need a change of some sort.
you think that's disgusting, go and look at the swarms of pimped out battleships when there's only 1 high sec incursion up.
it's truly revolting. |
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Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
194
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Posted - 2014.03.10 18:59:00 -
[111] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Watching the swarms on high-sec Icebelts is pretty disgusting tbh, and does indeed need a change of some sort. you think that's disgusting, go and look at the swarms of pimped out battleships when there's only 1 high sec incursion up. it's truly revolting.
You can't afk Incursions though. Not really the same thing, is it. |
Dave Stark
4503
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Posted - 2014.03.10 19:14:00 -
[112] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Watching the swarms on high-sec Icebelts is pretty disgusting tbh, and does indeed need a change of some sort. you think that's disgusting, go and look at the swarms of pimped out battleships when there's only 1 high sec incursion up. it's truly revolting. You can't afk Incursions though. Not really the same thing, is it.
you've clearly never taken a 1400 mach in to an incursion. you can be about as afk as a miner in one of those. |
Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
197
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Posted - 2014.03.10 19:23:00 -
[113] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Watching the swarms on high-sec Icebelts is pretty disgusting tbh, and does indeed need a change of some sort. you think that's disgusting, go and look at the swarms of pimped out battleships when there's only 1 high sec incursion up. it's truly revolting. You can't afk Incursions though. Not really the same thing, is it. you've clearly never taken a 1400 mach in to an incursion. you can be about as afk as a miner in one of those.
Indeed I have not.
But if you are seriously trying to compare Incursions to AFK miners swarming all over Icebelts like flies on ****, I have no further interest in discussing with you. |
DaReaper
Net 7 The Last Brigade
242
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Posted - 2014.03.10 19:28:00 -
[114] - Quote
Morganta wrote:because mining is boring?
mining should be the least appealing aspect of eve nobody wants to play "afk mining on-line"
No its not boring, its just not as interactive as other activites. And lots of people have no problems playing afk mining online, hell I like to setup and mine then check the web and come back, or i'll watch the miners suck in ore or gas and just chat and chill at the pretty colors. |
Dave Stark
4503
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Posted - 2014.03.10 19:38:00 -
[115] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Indeed I have not.
But if you are seriously trying to compare Incursions to AFK miners swarming all over Icebelts like flies on ****, I have no further interest in discussing with you.
i'm not trying to, i am comparing them.
there are many, many parallels. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
14044
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Posted - 2014.03.10 19:57:00 -
[116] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Watching the swarms on high-sec Icebelts is pretty disgusting tbh, and does indeed need a change of some sort. you think that's disgusting, go and look at the swarms of pimped out battleships when there's only 1 high sec incursion up. it's truly revolting. You can't afk Incursions though. Not really the same thing, is it. you've clearly never taken a 1400 mach in to an incursion. you can be about as afk as a miner in one of those. Indeed I have not. But if you are seriously trying to compare Incursions to AFK miners swarming all over Icebelts like flies on ****, I have no further interest in discussing with you.
How do AFK miners do this?
1 Kings 12:11
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Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
198
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Posted - 2014.03.10 20:08:00 -
[117] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:How do AFK miners do this?
Arrive in system. Target Ice. Activate Lazorz. Set timer for when total yield=cargo capacity. AFK. (Anywhere between around 15mins to 30mins) Timer is up. Empty Ice into larger vessel. Retarget Ice if necessary. Set timer. AFK.
Until all the Ice is gone.
Its almost comical to watch the occasional hapless NPC Pirate arrive and be overwhelmed by the countless drones orbiting a dozen Mackinaws. |
Dave Stark
4503
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Posted - 2014.03.10 20:23:00 -
[118] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Malcanis wrote:How do AFK miners do this? Arrive in system. Target Ice. Activate Lazorz. Set timer for when total yield=cargo capacity. AFK. (Anywhere between around 15mins to 30mins) Timer is up. Empty Ice into larger vessel. Retarget Ice if necessary. Set timer. AFK. Until all the Ice is gone. Its almost comical to watch the occasional hapless NPC Pirate arrive and be overwhelmed by the countless drones orbiting a dozen Mackinaws.
if they're doing all of that, then they're clearly not afk. |
Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
199
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Posted - 2014.03.10 20:26:00 -
[119] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:if they're doing all of that, then they're clearly not afk.
What part of the clearly marked "AFK" sections did you think are "clearly not afk"?
The activity does not require presence at the keyboard and the action required between AFKing for those durations, is measurable in a handful of seconds. Certainly less than 30s. |
Dave Stark
4503
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Posted - 2014.03.10 20:30:00 -
[120] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Dave Stark wrote:if they're doing all of that, then they're clearly not afk. What part of the clearly marked "AFK" sections did you think are "clearly not afk"? The activity does not require presence at the keyboard and the action required between AFKing for those durations, is measurable in a handful of seconds. Certainly less than 30s.
nor does ratting. also an activity not requiring interaction for a short period of time doesn't make it an afk activity, as demonstrated by the fact that there are very un-afk steps in your terrible example. |
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