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Batelle
HOMELE55
2148
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Posted - 2014.03.07 22:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: A character running 10 lines full time would spend 8m isk / day in manufactruing fees. While these would obviously be passed onto the consumer, do you think such fees would make it too expensive for a new player to get into manufacturing?
There's enough researched blueprints out there that I just see the researcher taking the hit rather than being able to pass the research cost to the consumer.
would this just be for copy/ME jobs or all jobs? massively increasing the cost of invention lines would be catastrophic to small time inventors, who already invent stuff at half the rate of a pos. And the increased cost of BPCs would be a double-whammy for them. I see this as a very undesirable outcome. Established researches with poses would be happy to meet the extra demand for BPCs, but you can't sell an invention slot on the market, and its not like station invention slots are in super-high demand.
IMO leave PE and invention slot cost alone. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
1407
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Posted - 2014.03.08 02:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
Posted my other thoughts in the F&I thread.
Generally OK with the idea as long as it is focused on balancing the POS production to better than NPC stations. GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour! |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1228
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Posted - 2014.03.08 04:29:00 -
[3] - Quote
i endorse this product and/or service
if you want to move science and manufacturing away from highsec you need to increase the cost that is associated with highsec production. right now things happen FASTER in nullsec, but certainly not cheaper. they need to be CHEAPER for things to change. transportation cost is the same for every product, no matter how fast it is made. that needs to change since transport is what's eating margins GRRR Goons |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
3615
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Posted - 2014.03.08 04:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote: A character running 10 lines full time would spend 8m isk / day in manufactruing fees. While these would obviously be passed onto the consumer, do you think such fees would make it too expensive for a new player to get into manufacturing?
There's enough researched blueprints out there that I just see the researcher taking the hit rather than being able to pass the research cost to the consumer. would this just be for copy/ME jobs or all jobs? massively increasing the cost of invention lines would be catastrophic to small time inventors, who already invent stuff at half the rate of a pos. And the increased cost of BPCs would be a double-whammy for them. I see this as a very undesirable outcome. Established researches with poses would be happy to meet the extra demand for BPCs, but you can't sell an invention slot on the market, and its not like station invention slots are in super-high demand. IMO leave PE and invention slot cost alone.
I primarily wish this to be implemented on Manufacturing lines, and that's where I crunched most of the numbers.
Maybe I'm ignorant, but I really thought most inventors utilize a POS to ascertain their BPC's. I do a lot of t2 manufacturing, and simply cannot imagine dealing with the station queues as a serious producer. As such, I wasn't worried about the cost of Copy and Invention NPC station jobs. As for the ME/PE lines, I again figured most people that researched BPO's to sell on contracts also utilized POS's to avoid the insane ME queues.
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SJ Astralana
Syncore
30
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Posted - 2014.03.08 07:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
I've said for years that jammed station slot pricing should be demand driven just like station rents. Hyperdrive your production business: Eve Production Manager |
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
780
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Posted - 2014.03.08 12:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Batelle wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote: A character running 10 lines full time would spend 8m isk / day in manufactruing fees. While these would obviously be passed onto the consumer, do you think such fees would make it too expensive for a new player to get into manufacturing?
There's enough researched blueprints out there that I just see the researcher taking the hit rather than being able to pass the research cost to the consumer. would this just be for copy/ME jobs or all jobs? massively increasing the cost of invention lines would be catastrophic to small time inventors, who already invent stuff at half the rate of a pos. And the increased cost of BPCs would be a double-whammy for them. I see this as a very undesirable outcome. Established researches with poses would be happy to meet the extra demand for BPCs, but you can't sell an invention slot on the market, and its not like station invention slots are in super-high demand. IMO leave PE and invention slot cost alone. I primarily wish this to be implemented on Manufacturing lines, and that's where I crunched most of the numbers. Maybe I'm ignorant, but I really thought most inventors utilize a POS to ascertain their BPC's. I do a lot of t2 manufacturing, and simply cannot imagine dealing with the station queues as a serious producer. As such, I wasn't worried about the cost of Copy and Invention NPC station jobs. As for the ME/PE lines, I again figured most people that researched BPO's to sell on contracts also utilized POS's to avoid the insane ME queues.
My manufacturing alt has 10 lines running 24/7 both research and manufacturing. I do not use a POS and do it in high sec. The ME queues mean nothing as i finished the ME i needed on my BPO's months ago. The copying queue is normally about 5 days. The invention /manufacturing slots have no queue where i am based. The majority of my income comes from manufacturing and i see no need for a POS at all.
Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85 |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
3246
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Posted - 2014.03.09 04:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:A character running 10 lines full time would spend 8m isk / day in manufactruing fees. While these would obviously be passed onto the consumer, do you think such fees would make it too expensive for a new player to get into manufacturing?
Would it seriously hurt your own production operations? Wouldn't bother me at all, but I'm glad that you realized it could hurt the newer industrialists.
Though I really don't have an opinion on what the fees should be, I would like to see standing and perhaps skills have more of an effect on reducing them. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1229
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Posted - 2014.03.09 17:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
a small thing that has often gone through my head:
i really don't thing that small stuff should have any barriers so that newbies can start making stuff within days. that would include cheaper lines when small weapons, rigs, guns and normal modules are made, but higher fees for anything T2, medium ships, large ships, ... GRRR Goons |
Mxxpower
Equity Nuclear
0
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Posted - 2014.03.11 02:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
yes we should increase the rate to at least 500k/hr...
You do realize that people with POS's will make even more isk with these changes right? and @ 33k isk/hr is more than some Items sell for after they are manufactured?
You are saying "don't bother manufacturing anything until you can afford a POS in hisec"
Sounds like a wonderful idea to me
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Mxxpower
Equity Nuclear
0
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Posted - 2014.03.11 03:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
[/quote]
My manufacturing alt has 10 lines running 24/7 both research and manufacturing. I do not use a POS and do it in high sec. The ME queues mean nothing as i finished the ME i needed on my BPO's months ago. The copying queue is normally about 5 days. The invention /manufacturing slots have no queue where i am based. The majority of my income comes from manufacturing and i see no need for a POS at all. [quote]
5 day copy queue and no need for a POS? So I am guessing you don't need those BPO's for manufacturing those 5 days... because you can't make any copies.
What do you do if you want to get into a different market? buy a few BPO's and put them in the month long queue for ME research?
Sounds like a headache to me. |
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
3647
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Posted - 2014.03.11 03:30:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mxxpower wrote:yes we should increase the rate to at least 500k/hr...
You do realize that people with POS's will make even more isk with these changes right? and @ 33k isk/hr is more than some Items sell for after they are manufactured?
You are saying "don't bother manufacturing anything until you can afford a POS in hisec"
Sounds like a wonderful idea to me
I have a feeling you overestimate the price increases.
Remember that a POS manufacturer has to pay for fuel costs. So it isn't like they get to ignore these costs. With the price I proposed, the fuel costs of running a medium tower for 1 hour are equivalent to running 10 Station MFG Lines for 1 hour. While you can put more than 10 lines on a medium tower, your tower is susceptible to attack (wardecs), and must also include defenses or it WILL be attacked. And since you can't stop a job that's started, a wardec has a pretty big chance of catching your MFG POS with lots of loot inside it (which you can't empty after your POS is attacked and put into RF). A POS also requires alot more effort to anchor and maintain than moving minerals to a station and building there.
Because of these downsides, I figure most players will not move to a POS, but it rewards those that do with potentially cheaper rates, although by my estimate not a hugely different value. Let's look at some specific examples to give you an indication:
1.) Lets look at a BS. It's build time is 5 hours (before skills and research). The 33k / hr line cost would add 250 k isk to its final price. Most people wouldn't even notice that... If you MFG this at the POS instead, the added fuel cost would be roughly 125k isk, allowing the POS producer to build the battleships for net savings of 125k isk/battleship.
2.) Lets look at a typical t1 module (like a 200mm autocannon 1, or a heavy neutron blaster I, or a warp scrambler). These have a 10 minute base build time, so the 33k isk /hr line cost would increase the price of these by 6k isk per unit. While while this is a big price increase for some units (small guns, omni tracking units), it is hardly noticeable for your larger items. Using the POS to build will save you 3k per unit. This is noticeable on some things, but negligible on most.
3.) Lets look at a capital module: These normally have a 25 hr build time, so the cost of a Capital Cap Transfer would increase by almost 1m isk. While not completely negligible, these values are often very small compared to sell price. The POS manufacture would save about 500k per item over the station manufacturer.
4.) Lets look at a small rig: These normally take 25 minutes build time, so your looking at a 16k increase in rig cost. A medium rig takes 50 minutes to build, so a 28k increase in rig cost. The POS manufacturer would produce items 8k isk and 14k isk cheaper for the small and medium rigs.
These prices are significant in cutthroat markets, but well below profit margins in many markets. This rewards the player that puts their stuff at risk, but also empowers you if you you don't. If you find some competition has an advantage over you because the utilize a POS, you can have them wardecced to stifle their manufacturing processes. |
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
298
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 03:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
SJ Astralana wrote:I've said for years that jammed station slot pricing should be demand driven just like station rents.
Only good thing in this entire thread so far. |
Felicity Love
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1571
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 04:07:00 -
[13] - Quote
The cost would simply be passed on to the "customer", as all increases in costs (over the years) have been passed on.
But sure, why not. We need a new crop of threads whining about the time needed to farm more ISK just to be able to "do stuff" in EVE....
Better to just magnify the effects of a pilots personal Standings and let the rewards/punishment fall where they may, rather than screwing the entire economy of EVE for no constructive reason. Players can already do that.
... and I was just saying the other day, "Damn, I miss Soundwave"....
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Styth spiting
Ion Corp. NightSong Directorate
415
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 06:20:00 -
[14] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote: A character running 10 lines full time would spend 8m isk / day in manufactruing fees. While these would obviously be passed onto the consumer, do you think such fees would make it too expensive for a new player to get into manufacturing?
There's enough researched blueprints out there that I just see the researcher taking the hit rather than being able to pass the research cost to the consumer. would this just be for copy/ME jobs or all jobs? massively increasing the cost of invention lines would be catastrophic to small time inventors, who already invent stuff at half the rate of a pos. And the increased cost of BPCs would be a double-whammy for them. I see this as a very undesirable outcome. Established researches with poses would be happy to meet the extra demand for BPCs, but you can't sell an invention slot on the market, and its not like station invention slots are in super-high demand. IMO leave PE and invention slot cost alone.
Make it more based off standings. Alts will pay more isk / hour for slots while non-alts (individual players) will end up paying less if their characters have some amount of standing.
Helps out individual industry players while taxing players (like myself) more. No reason to tax everyone. If players can work and increasing standings with a corp they should benefit by it, not just be penalized fully unless you have a POS. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
2233
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 23:17:00 -
[15] - Quote
I'd support increasing the cost of ME research on more expensive BPOs.
Example: On a 1 million ISK BPO, leave the ME research cost as-is. On a 20m BPO, increase the ME cost by a factor of 5 On a 1600m BPO, increase it by a factor of 40.
The long research jobs are the ones that tie up the slots so long that you see the current queues, and it's expensive BPOs that get long, long research jobs performed on them multiple times. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=318489 - Proposal for a new type of tech 2 Destroyer If you want to mine in highsec, read www.minerbumping.com. |
Hypatia AH103
Dark Steel Industries
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 01:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
An increase wouldnt be a bad thing, I am just worried that if it increases to much it might hurt the new guys too much. Those of us that are established wouldnt bat much of an eye but someone just getting into industry might be.
Adding a larger fee but perhaps having our standing with the corp/faction lower it a tad I think would be a good mechanic. Dont ask me what kind of raise would be good, I have NO clue. I would need to sit down and look at the spreadsheets more and I am way to tired to do that right now. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
2238
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 04:08:00 -
[17] - Quote
Hypatia AH103 wrote:An increase wouldnt be a bad thing, I am just worried that if it increases to much it might hurt the new guys too much. Those of us that are established wouldnt bat much of an eye but someone just getting into industry might be.
Adding a larger fee but perhaps having our standing with the corp/faction lower it a tad I think would be a good mechanic. Dont ask me what kind of raise would be good, I have NO clue. I would need to sit down and look at the spreadsheets more and I am way to tired to do that right now.
Standings are much harder for newbies to get than the sorts of levels of ISK we are talking here.
Assume the prices are raised to 50 times present prices. That would make it ~600k ISK per research line per day. For a short reseach job, that isn't much to a new player - the only BPOs that would be really, really hammered hard by this change would be cruiser/destroyer BPOs and mineral compression module BPOs.
If it incentivises existing industrialists to move their operations to POSes, however, it will help the newbies a LOT by freeing up those public slots. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=318489 - Proposal for a new type of tech 2 Destroyer If you want to mine in highsec, read www.minerbumping.com. |
WaterMarks
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2014.03.16 12:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
profit form most t1 goods are barly anything alread, with is were most new players start. not to mention the ammount of these goods on the market atm, i mean look at retreivers for a while there so many were on the market that if u tried to manufacture one u lost isk. i like the idea but it hurt the little guy more then anything else. gradual rise would be better 5k-10k-20k
-Fly Reckless- |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1232
|
Posted - 2014.03.16 16:08:00 -
[19] - Quote
WaterMarks wrote:profit form most t1 goods are barly anything alread, with is were most new players start. not to mention the ammount of these goods on the market atm, i mean look at retreivers for a while there so many were on the market that if u tried to manufacture one u lost isk. i like the idea but it hurt the little guy more then anything else. gradual rise would be better 5k-10k-20k
What? I regularly make between 500k and 1m+ an hour on T1 stuff. GRRR Goons |
Robert Morningstar
Morningstar Excavations LTD Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
66
|
Posted - 2014.03.18 00:44:00 -
[20] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Hypatia AH103 wrote:An increase wouldnt be a bad thing, I am just worried that if it increases to much it might hurt the new guys too much. Those of us that are established wouldnt bat much of an eye but someone just getting into industry might be.
Adding a larger fee but perhaps having our standing with the corp/faction lower it a tad I think would be a good mechanic. Dont ask me what kind of raise would be good, I have NO clue. I would need to sit down and look at the spreadsheets more and I am way to tired to do that right now. Standings are much harder for newbies to get than the sorts of levels of ISK we are talking here. Assume the prices are raised to 50 times present prices. That would make it ~600k ISK per research line per day. For a short reseach job, that isn't much to a new player - the only BPOs that would be really, really hammered hard by this change would be cruiser/destroyer BPOs and mineral compression module BPOs. If it incentivises existing industrialists to move their operations to POSes, however, it will help the newbies a LOT by freeing up those public slots.
why would you even want to do me on a mineral compression module BPO? |
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Allison A'vani
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
61
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Posted - 2014.03.19 20:51:00 -
[21] - Quote
I fully endorse this as I do all my research in POSes, increase my profit margin please! |
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
520
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Posted - 2014.03.23 01:43:00 -
[22] - Quote
Batelle wrote:[quote=Gizznitt Malikite]IMO leave PE and invention slot cost alone.
I don't know about Invention, haven't expored that yet at all, but PE and ME slot costs are the ones that need to be increased the most. As it is now, it's so silly cheap that people just routinely slam in their BPOs to be queued up for improvements, without any need to do a cost-benefit calculation involving the ISK cost.
Time cost, sure, that is serious, but the ISK cost of the hours, days or week of BPO research, that is rightly regarded as trivial.
That needs to stop, BPO researchers need to be forced to think, and the way to force them to think is to up the cost. |
adriaans
Ankaa. Nair Al-Zaurak
8
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Posted - 2014.03.31 00:02:00 -
[23] - Quote
A POS purely for manufacturing would using using todays fuel prices would be between 4861-6018isk slot/hour.
As a result raising NPC costs for manufacturing much more than by 10x (3333isk) seems like a bad idea, and would be very detrimental to new players who usually start with cheap items like ammo which would be hit most by these changes.
Research costs (ME/PE/COPY) are between 20-30k/hour using POS (depending on config).
----True oldschool solo pvp'er---- My latest vid: Insanity IV |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
3800
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 16:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
adriaans wrote:A POS purely for manufacturing would using using todays fuel prices would be between 4861-6018isk slot/hour.
As a result raising NPC costs for manufacturing much more than by 10x (3333isk) seems like a bad idea, and would be very detrimental to new players who usually start with cheap items like ammo which would be hit most by these changes.
Research costs (ME/PE/COPY) are between 20-30k/hour using POS (depending on config).
How are your POS's configured?
Realize, you need a mix of hardeners, weapons, and/or EWAR on the POS as defenses (even in highsec), and should not operate a POS with ONLY labs and MFG arrays. That's like putting 500m in goods in your untanked iteron and flying it to Jita. You can do it, but it is very unwise.
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
3800
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Posted - 2014.03.31 17:02:00 -
[25] - Quote
By my estimates: A Medium Equipment MFG POS would have about 30 Equip lines, 20 Component lines on a Medium Tower. I would suspect 30-40 lines would operate full time. A rough estimate of 300k per hour for fuel puts this at 7.5-10k per line.
A Medium T2 Ship production requires 20% more material when operated at a POS, and probably wouldn't be moved there.
A Medium Research POS would have about 10 Copy, 9 ME, 3 PE, and 11x Invention. Realistically, this would have 20 Lines operating near full time. A rough estimate of 300k per hour for fuel puts this at about 15k per line.
Give the above pricing, paying 33k for the MAJOR conveniences station MFG provides seems very reasonable.
Also, the base rate of the stations I utilize is 333 isk / hour, not 3333 isk / hour. My suggested target was 33k isk / hour which seems very balanced to me.
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adriaans
Ankaa. Nair Al-Zaurak
8
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Posted - 2014.03.31 21:37:00 -
[26] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:adriaans wrote:A POS purely for manufacturing would using using todays fuel prices would be between 4861-6018isk slot/hour.
As a result raising NPC costs for manufacturing much more than by 10x (3333isk) seems like a bad idea, and would be very detrimental to new players who usually start with cheap items like ammo which would be hit most by these changes.
Research costs (ME/PE/COPY) are between 20-30k/hour using POS (depending on config).
How are your POS's configured? Realize, you need a mix of hardeners, weapons, and/or EWAR on the POS as defenses (even in highsec), and should not operate a POS with ONLY labs and MFG arrays. That's like putting 500m in goods in your untanked iteron and flying it to Jita. You can do it, but it is very unwise.
They don't need to be online during peace time, and that was in fact leaving space for multiple hardeners and e-war modules to actually be online.
Keep in mind it is more efficient isk wise to have one POS for manufacturing and another for labs and each being from different races faction.
edit; medium POS can easily field 60+ manufact lines. edit 2; MODULE lines (and obviously, drones, components, ammo, and such) .
edit 3; 3333 isk/hour wasnt what I said you used, it is what I said increasing prices beyond is where I believe the effect would be detrimental for newer players wanting to enter manufacturing as the items they start with (like ammo) would then be outcompeted by everyone else and leave no profit for them.
For lab costs, I am all for increasing the costs to your 33k level. Manufacturing, not so much, a 10x rise and observation of effects there would be far better in my opinion to ensure it doesn't negatively affect new players. ----True oldschool solo pvp'er---- My latest vid: Insanity IV |
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