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AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance
223
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Posted - 2014.03.14 15:42:00 -
[91] - Quote
Pain Killer13 wrote:So one thing that drives me nuts is vets who are quick to give advice to new guys like me but have no idea what they're talking about. It happens a lot. But the main thing that drives me up the wall is the tons of people who say "implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V." Ugh it drives me so nuts, if you're training skills with the same attributes, the implants/remaps give the exact same bonus to lvl 1 skills as they do lvl 5. There is no difference!
Please someone correct me here and tell me I'm wrong. I've been playing for around 6 weeks and have heard this said 100 times and I can't stand it. Rather than have this 'drive you nuts' perhaps you should be happy to hear those words because they tip you off to the fact that the particular vet you''re talking to might not be particularly useful as a source of advice. That saves you time and aggravation. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20032
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Posted - 2014.03.14 15:43:00 -
[92] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:I'm sure there are some who think the effect changes but I suspect it's really another form of shorthand, ie "You'll see the benefit of implants when you start to train level 5s" actually meaning, you'll notice it more. It's rare to see anyone considering long term training plans at the start, it takes that early time to understand the training system and appreciate the effect of remaps/implants. Rookies repeat advice they've seen to each other if it's perceived as accepted wisdom, mainly to be helpful, so it's not entirely their fault if they misunderstand. I hope you're right, but the sheer amount of confusion and misinformation I've seen about the skill system over the years make me far more cynical towards what the more plausible explanation isGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
954
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Posted - 2014.03.14 16:30:00 -
[93] - Quote
This all seems rather pointless, there are very few training queues that are all for example Int/Mem, usually (Well for me) they are half Int/Mem and one quarter Per/Wil and a random splash of everything else, so the net effect will be different. But the whole thing comes down to a numbers game and the numbers that follow are the benefits of a proper map and implants.
1530 sp/hr base at 17's, 36,720 p/day (worst map and no implants) 1,101,600 p/month 6,609,600 180days 13,402,800 per year
1620 sp/hr base at both 18's, 38,880 p/day 1710 sp/hr base at both 19's, 41,040 p/day 1800 sp/hr base at both 20's, 43,200 p/day 1890 sp/hr base at both 21's, 45,360 p/day 1980 sp/hr base at both 22's, 47,520 p/day 2070 sp/hr base at both 23's, 49,680 p/day 2160 sp/hr base at both 24's, 51,840 p/day 2250 sp/hr base at both 25's, 54,000 p/day 2340 sp/hr base at both 26's, 56,160 p/day 2400 sp/hr base at 27p/26s, 57,600 p/day 2460 sp/hr base at 28p/26s, 59,040 p/day 2520 sp/hr base at 29p/26s, 60,480 p/day 2580 sp/hr base at 30p/26s, 61,920 p/day 2640 sp/hr base at 31p/26s, 63,360 p/day 2700 sp/hr base at 32p/26s, 64,800 p/day (best map with +5's) 1,944,000 p/month 11,664,000 180days 23,652,000 per year
Total Sp needed for cyber-V is 768,000.
So I guess the point is 'For me'; If your going to be playing for more than a few months then use Implants, sp are not how you 'win the game' but they do help lower the gap.
Things that keep me up at night;-á Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state,-áOnce you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another. |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
1064
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Posted - 2014.03.14 16:31:00 -
[94] - Quote
Loko Crackhead wrote:Jenna Jiggles wrote:
Both the vets and yourself are right because you are using a qualifying statement that they are not. "if you're training skills with the same attributes", this is almost never the case when setting 30 days worth of skills for a new char but is the case when you have 1x 30day skill to train.
That is why implants are more useful for players that are training skills to V and less useful for newbies who are Destroyer I-IV, Small Hybrid I-IV, Afterburner I-IV, Cap junk I-V etc. attributes don't match.
False no matter your native attributes your implants give you a flat increase in SP/minute.
Different implants give different atributes so you can get more SP, atributes are the key, implants and remaps are there to boost your atributes and in turn the SP gained https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Attribute _¦Å-æ-»¦Ñ¦¼-Ä_-¢-å¦ä_-½-»-å¦ÿ-ò-û¦¦ |
Harrison Tato
Barringtons Research
40
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Posted - 2014.03.14 16:37:00 -
[95] - Quote
Trii Seo wrote:Actually, they're right.
When you start training skills with high multipliers, you'll see more difference when having implants - a set of +4's will shave a week or so off your skill rather than few hours. Things like Battleship 5, JDC 5 and all those lovely "need to have" of a vet.
That said, learning implants at the beginning of the game are redundant and prevent you from enjoying the game. Throw that money on a cheap T1 frig and go have fun in pvp rather than worry "but my +3's!"
Uh no.........learning something 5% more quickly is learning something 5% more quickly. Doesn't matter if it takes a week or an hour.
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Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
1124
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Posted - 2014.03.14 16:42:00 -
[96] - Quote
Six weeks into the game, and he knows everything....All hail the new Mittens?
CCP: "We know what's best for the game, so you can't have any options....." |
Marsha Mallow
123
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Posted - 2014.03.14 16:43:00 -
[97] - Quote
Tippia wrote:I hope you're right, but the sheer amount of confusion and misinformation I've seen about the skill system over the years make me far more cynical towards what the more plausible explanation isGǪ Well, on the bright side we need numpties to point and laugh at, shoot, rob, torment etc. Stop telling them stuff!
The highlight of rookie chat is always "What's the biggest/bestest ship in Eve > How much is it > How long does it take" etc. The replies usually prompt ohhing, although some are probably checking their bank balance and thinking "Hah! I will pwn you all". Gevlon is the extreme example of this 'for I am awesome in every single game and I have arrived to educate you all how things are really done' mentality. He has followers now too, people even cite him as a reliable source. \o/ - |
Loko Crackhead
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2014.03.14 16:47:00 -
[98] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:Loko Crackhead wrote:Jenna Jiggles wrote:
Both the vets and yourself are right because you are using a qualifying statement that they are not. "if you're training skills with the same attributes", this is almost never the case when setting 30 days worth of skills for a new char but is the case when you have 1x 30day skill to train.
That is why implants are more useful for players that are training skills to V and less useful for newbies who are Destroyer I-IV, Small Hybrid I-IV, Afterburner I-IV, Cap junk I-V etc. attributes don't match.
False no matter your native attributes your implants give you a flat increase in SP/minute. Different implants give different atributes so you can get more SP, atributes are the key, implants and remaps are there to boost your atributes and in turn the SP gained https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/AttributeAfter you plug it in, you are doing more SP per minute, and you can get those 768 000 SP faster at lvl V. Flat bonus, but it costs you less time for lvl V with higher atributes than with lower, atributes coresponding to this skill I have to add. So, when you have to make more SP per minute and the amount of SP is huge for that lvl V skill, you would want to plug in +5.
You sir need to buy and train reading comprehension to at least lvl 4 before quoting me again. I'm done with spoon feeding trolls and idiots. |
Kristopher Rocancourt
Auto Erotic Decapitation
361
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 16:50:00 -
[99] - Quote
what drives me nuts is when new guy know it alls come into Eve and think they know it all, make a statement about advice they were given, and are wrong.
https://zkillboard.com/character/91143676/
http://killalliance.co.uk/tears/tears-holeysheet/ |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20036
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 16:55:00 -
[100] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:After you plug it in, you are doing more SP per minute, and you can get those 768 000 SP faster at lvl V. Flat bonus, but it costs you less time for lvl V with higher atributes than with lower, atributes coresponding to this skill I have to add You are very very confused. Implants are not skills are not attributes, and the differences between different-bonused implants were still never in question.
So no. It's still a flat increase no matter what you're training and no matter what level it is.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
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Sturmwolke
507
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Posted - 2014.03.14 17:08:00 -
[101] - Quote
The sky blue.
Oh look a cloud .. Person A : It's frog Person B : Nope, it's a lizard, you ninny. Person C : Whaaat ... nooo. Wtf, haven't you seen an elephant before? Me : Oh, it's just a cloud.
:D |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
1064
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Posted - 2014.03.14 17:09:00 -
[102] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Bagrat Skalski wrote:After you plug it in, you are doing more SP per minute, and you can get those 768 000 SP faster at lvl V. Flat bonus, but it costs you less time for lvl V with higher atributes than with lower, atributes coresponding to this skill I have to add You are very very confused. Implants are not skills are not attributes, and the differences between different-bonused implants were still never in question. So no. It's still a flat increase no matter what you're training and no matter what level it is. Kristopher Rocancourt wrote:what drives me nuts is when new guy know it alls come into Eve and think they know it all, make a statement about advice they were given, and are wrong. So the OP manages to keep you sane, then, I take it.
Where did i said that Implants are skills are attributes? You have misunderstood me obviously. What i have said is implants give attributes and more of a certain attributes give you more SP per minute, so you have more skills in less time, and when SP amount for skill is huge, you get huge time savings, something is wrong? _¦Å-æ-»¦Ñ¦¼-Ä_-¢-å¦ä_-½-»-å¦ÿ-ò-û¦¦ |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
492
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 17:10:00 -
[103] - Quote
Kristopher Rocancourt wrote:what drives me nuts is when new guy know it alls come into Eve and think they know it all, make a statement about advice they were given, and are wrong.
Good that the OP was right then.
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Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
492
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 17:12:00 -
[104] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:and when SP amount for skill is huge, you get huge time savings, something is wrong?
Yes, you are wrong. The time saved will always be the same, unless you stop training altogether.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20036
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 17:14:00 -
[105] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:Where did i said that Implants are skills are attributes? Every time you start talking about lvl-V:s and +5:s that had nothing to do with the actual issue and try to argue against the simple and unavoidable fact that implants give you a flat increase in training speed, no matter what skill you're training and to what level.
Quote:something is wrong? None of it is germane to what the thread us actually about.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
5051
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 17:17:00 -
[106] - Quote
Pain Killer13 wrote:So one thing that drives me nuts is vets who are quick to give advice to new guys like me but have no idea what they're talking about. It happens a lot. But the main thing that drives me up the wall is the tons of people who say "implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V." Ugh it drives me so nuts, if you're training skills with the same attributes, the implants/remaps give the exact same bonus to lvl 1 skills as they do lvl 5. There is no difference!
Please someone correct me here and tell me I'm wrong. I've been playing for around 6 weeks and have heard this said 100 times and I can't stand it.
If you know the truth of the matter then why do you give a damn about what people are saying? |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
1064
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 17:21:00 -
[107] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Bagrat Skalski wrote:and when SP amount for skill is huge, you get huge time savings, something is wrong? Yes, you are wrong. The time saved will always be the same, unless you stop training altogether.
Same as what? As huge time savings compared to +1 implant? Yea right.
Quote:None of it is germane to what the thread us actually about.
So we are not talking about the implants making difference at lvl v skill training? What implants? I think we are here to discuss just that. Because the amount of SP per minute is linked to the attributes implants give you, and the amount of SP for skill needed to get that skill finally. _¦Å-æ-»¦Ñ¦¼-Ä_-¢-å¦ä_-½-»-å¦ÿ-ò-û¦¦ |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
492
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 17:23:00 -
[108] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Bagrat Skalski wrote:and when SP amount for skill is huge, you get huge time savings, something is wrong? Yes, you are wrong. The time saved will always be the same, unless you stop training altogether. Same as what? As huge time savings compared to +1 implant? Yea right.
Did you have a stroke recently? |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
1064
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 17:26:00 -
[109] - Quote
No i didnt, i would like to know what same time saved you are talking about. _¦Å-æ-»¦Ñ¦¼-Ä_-¢-å¦ä_-½-»-å¦ÿ-ò-û¦¦ |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20037
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 17:32:00 -
[110] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:So we are not talking about the implants making difference at lvl v skill training? We are talking about implants making the same difference regardless of whether you're training for lvl V of a skill or lvl IGÇôIV.
It has nothing to do with attributes or different-bonused implants. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
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Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
1064
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 17:40:00 -
[111] - Quote
Sorry. _¦Å-æ-»¦Ñ¦¼-Ä_-¢-å¦ä_-½-»-å¦ÿ-ò-û¦¦ |
E-2C Hawkeye
State War Academy Caldari State
523
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 17:40:00 -
[112] - Quote
Pain Killer13 wrote:Trii Seo wrote:Actually, they're right.
When you start training skills with high multipliers, you'll see more difference when having implants - a set of +4's will shave a week or so off your skill rather than few hours.
See this is what I'm saying. If you have a month worth of LVL 1's queued up or a month lvl 5, the time reduction will be the same. So they are just as beneficial for new players as they are for vets. (assuming you don't get podded which most new players don't) 10% off 48 hours vs. 10% off 10000 hours is how they are looking it. 10% is 10% but will always be greater with longer training times. |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
1064
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 17:59:00 -
[113] - Quote
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:Pain Killer13 wrote:Trii Seo wrote:Actually, they're right.
When you start training skills with high multipliers, you'll see more difference when having implants - a set of +4's will shave a week or so off your skill rather than few hours.
See this is what I'm saying. If you have a month worth of LVL 1's queued up or a month lvl 5, the time reduction will be the same. So they are just as beneficial for new players as they are for vets. (assuming you don't get podded which most new players don't) 10% off 48 hours vs. 10% off 10000 hours is how they are looking at it. 10% is 10% but will always be greater with longer training times.
Hey, that is what everyone here tries to say. _¦Å-æ-»¦Ñ¦¼-Ä_-¢-å¦ä_-½-»-å¦ÿ-ò-û¦¦ |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
493
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 18:09:00 -
[114] - Quote
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:10% off 48 hours vs. 10% off 10000 hours is how they are looking at it. 10% is 10% but will always be greater with longer training times.
For individual skills, yes. But if you look at a month of training lvl1-3 skills and at a month of training lvl5 skills you will see that the amount of time saved by implants is the same in both cases. |
Qalix
Long Jump.
167
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 18:09:00 -
[115] - Quote
Pain Killer13 wrote:So one thing that drives me nuts is vets who are quick to give advice to new guys like me but have no idea what they're talking about. It happens a lot. But the main thing that drives me up the wall is the tons of people who say "implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V." Ugh it drives me so nuts, if you're training skills with the same attributes, the implants/remaps give the exact same bonus to lvl 1 skills as they do lvl 5. There is no difference!
Please someone correct me here and tell me I'm wrong. I've been playing for around 6 weeks and have heard this said 100 times and I can't stand it. You know what drives me nuts? Players who ask for advice, are given poor, incomplete, or incorrect answers by the playerbase, and then complain about the playerbase, rather than complaining about CCP's incredibly awful new player experience and lack of useful information and tutorials. Place the blame where it's warranted, not on the people who took time to help you, regardless of the quality of that hlep. Ungrateful wretch. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20037
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 18:13:00 -
[116] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:E-2C Hawkeye wrote:10% off 48 hours vs. 10% off 10000 hours is how they are looking at it. 10% is 10% but will always be greater with longer training times. Hey, that is what everyone here tries to say. Then GÇ£everyoneGÇ¥ makes the nonsensical assumption that you only ever train one skill and then stop. Of course, that's not how people ever train skills so it doesn't actually work that way. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Pain Killer13
Spark Enterprises
8
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 18:15:00 -
[117] - Quote
I appreciate those who understood the original point of the thread and helped defend it while I went to sleep - IE Tippia.
This thread has nothing to do with the value of using +3 vs +5 Implants, or balancing if you are going to die or not when deciding what implants to use. Those points aren't relative to the discussion.
I apologize to those "vets" who I offended in topic by giving the impression I know it all. I don't, and that is why I often chat with vets in length about theory and gameplay. I also read a lot online about the game. I'm just trying to learn, so that's why it's frustrating when I find people giving bad advice. And I don't just mean in passing advice in the newb help channel of comments like "don't worry about implants right now." I'm talking about specific people who believe that implants are more beneficial to high level skills than they are to low level skills. That's the problem I have.
I think it should be evident that people do not understand the concept of how implants work and how they benefit the short trains just as much as they benefit the long trains (as long as you keep you queue full). Seems as if around 50% of the posters or more can't quite grasp it. |
Pain Killer13
Spark Enterprises
8
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 18:24:00 -
[118] - Quote
Qalix wrote:[ You know what drives me nuts? Players who ask for advice, are given poor, incomplete, or incorrect answers by the playerbase, and then complain about the playerbase, rather than complaining about CCP's incredibly awful new player experience and lack of useful information and tutorials. Place the blame where it's warranted, not on the people who took time to help you, regardless of the quality of that hlep. Ungrateful wretch.
I am not complaining about the player base as a whole, just those who think they know better only because their join date was before mine. I am not ungrateful, and continue to seek advice. I just see this belief come up very often, and I try to explain how it works, but being 6 weeks old in game, I am waved off as wrong and am told "just wait till you train a long one, then you will see."
Also I don't see any reason to blame CCP. The game is what is. The correct info is published out there. Maybe I should blame them for not having a useful vet training tutorial? |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar E.A.R.T.H. Federation
348
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 18:25:00 -
[119] - Quote
Anyone else getting flashbacks to the days of Learning Skills from this thread?
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Jarod Garamonde
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
1377
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 18:33:00 -
[120] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Jarod Garamonde wrote: You are a classic example of a noob that doesn't listen. We haven't been playing this game for years and years just to know nothing.
He knows a hell of a lot more than those giving blatantly false advice, thats's for sure, so not listening to them is really a good thing.
I'm pretty sure that what most of the people who say things like this mean is "don't bother with implants, right away"... they're just using the wrong words to get that point across. By all means, plug in the "free" implants you get from the early missions.... but until you learn how to get your pod out after losing a ship, or at least be able to afford re-purchasing all those implants, it's probably a bad idea to buy them with your own ISK. And, buying PLEX to sell for ISK is a bad idea, in the first year. It teaches you that ISK is value-less.
Learn fundamentals like opportunity cost, ISK/hour, "safety is an illusion in EVE", how to avoid losing a ship, and how to focus your skill training, before you worry about buying learning implants. THAT'S what these people are actually trying to say (at least I hope that's what they're trying to say), which is actually pretty good advice. Because you're probably going to get podded, a lot, as a noob... and that gets to be an expensive habit if you're always jacking +5's into your dome. That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right... |
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