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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 24 post(s) |
Regan Rotineque
Rl'yeh Interstellar Ltd. Mildly Sober
249
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Posted - 2014.03.21 00:54:00 -
[631] - Quote
This was already at 31 pages when i started writing and I did take time to read all the replies so far.
(Yes Wall of Text hits you for 2,133 damage)
I find myself with odd mixed feelings about this change being proposed. On one had null does need a boost to give it a much better competitive edge in terms of some industrial changes. However I am not sure I like the way its being proposed.
I think this is overly complicated.
1. I understand the desire to make null sec and player owned/built structures have more value as there is greater risk associated with owning and operating. This I 100% support. However I have never felt that the issue was one of refine rate. In fact I think 100% refine rates are perfectly okay. The issue is that there is ZERO cost associated with NPC refine rates. Once you build up enough standing with said NPC entity you get a big zero on the "we take" side. Sorry but this never made sense to me (though i did as a big ass carebear in high sec benefit from it) but the costs of doing business in high sec seem to be missing in some equations.
There should ALWAYS be a cost associated with using an NPC station for anything....whether that be refine, research, industry etc...etc.... and these taxes should be imho MUCH higher than they are now. Instead of tinkering with the gameplay mechanics so much adding new and useless lines of code - you could have just raised the taxes in high sec.
That being said - I do see that there needs to be some usefulness put into those lvl 5 refine and ore skills. You could have just tweaked the refine rates to less than 100% and made it so that you get 100% with those level 5s.
Instead you have opted for a complicated math solution that confuses the masses and makes people think okay "how do I perfect this" oh wait i cant get 100% - i have some complicated math then we add some extra minerals in...but those will be lost in the conversions...etc..etc...
Just seems a bit daft to me this approach. The goal, and perhaps I am not fully understanding it, is to rebalance refine with a boost to null sec. With taxes its as easy as saying in high sec 10% of all minerals refined are taxed, Low sec 5% null sec - alliance set and just modified that refinery % at each of the stations (btw several others have mentioned this - there is no rationale behind a corp or station being a better refinery over another in high sec - there are Military bases with perfect refine and mining corp stations with less than perfect - be nice to fix that)
2. Changes to scrapmetal - this one I don't understand at all - you have taken a valuable profession in salvaging and looting - one that any newbie in a t1 fit thrasher or catalyst can do - and nerfed it heavily. In addition many people used this to refine for the low/null minerals when starting out - again a big nerf to small time indy folks who are just starting the game.
The really bad result of this change is that the flexibility of minerals is lost. You can no longer build something and recycle it and get a significant portion of the materials back. What you are in essence saying is that in the future nobody will have perfected recycling in any meaningful way. I do like the instant compression on the Rorq and the POS modules - but I would strongly suggest making the skills apply to the POS modules. Not some freebee "it thinks your perfect" just because you have a POS - otherwise your defeating the purpose of making those skills for refine/ore not really matter.
In addition the POS modules should receive some sort of Sov bonus - why should a high sec or low sec POS have the same advantage as a null POS ? A null POS is much more risk - either have different modules (ie: some regular stuff that can be anchored anywhere with basic refine - some upgraded stuff for low sec with slightly higher stats - and some faction pirate stuff with much higher stats) or that you receive some bonus from the I-Hub.
I am overall worried about the effects on new players and small time industrialists in high sec. These changes will make it much more difficult to squeeze profit out of diminished margins. There are not alot of options for new players who DONT want to join the big alliances and coalitions and I think both of these changes are significantly increasing the complexity of the game and their ability to come into EvE and learn. I did not join a blob or even a corp for my first year and a half, but i still enjoyed the social side of the game (insert big plug for CAS - the best NPC corp in the game) I have really enjoyed myself more since moving to null and exploring and learning some basic pvp. But I did it at my pace and how I wanted to play the game.
Sometimes I see these changes and I think its an experiment on how to get people to play the game differently rather than letting them enjoy it at their own pace.
My main concerns: - overly complicated , hard to figure out or goal set to see how you get to the best refine - provides equal bonuses to high/low/null pos's - should provide a scale - ie: better refine in null - creates barriers on some of the early professions - refining, industrial production, salvaging - reduces mineral flexibility - which i think will drive up prices which will drive down pvp as many are risk adverse and not all corps or alliances have or can afford luxury SRP plans.
I think this needs lots more discussion and testing....I am supportive that changes need to be made....let's just go slow on this one.
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TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
201
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Posted - 2014.03.21 00:57:00 -
[632] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Adellle Nadair wrote:Malcanis wrote:Berluth Luthian wrote: ...
... ... Hi-sec will still be a massively better place to do production than 0.0 after this change. You can complain after CCP - Remove CONCORD - Remove all the NPC stations - Remove the faction police - Allow cynos, bombs and bubbles to work in hi-sec - Move datacore production out of hi-sec - Move BPO sell orders out of hi-sec While hi-sec still has those monumental advantages, this is basically complaining that the poor kid is getting a cherry while you're eating your way through a giant triple-scoop sundae.
Didn't EVE advertise its a dangerous game?
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TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
201
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Posted - 2014.03.21 00:59:00 -
[633] - Quote
Lipbite wrote:This is that happens when devs don't develop real content.
You want Jesus features? That worked out well. |
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
201
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Posted - 2014.03.21 01:01:00 -
[634] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Grookshank wrote:So, I might have missed something. But basically now there is more of a loss in the production/reprocessing cycle, which leads too: 1. Loot/Salvage taking a huge hit of about 45-50% in worth. 2. Minerals getting worth more, so more people go afk and bot mining? 1: Yes. 2: Not really, yield is being increased to compensate.
I did not realize my orca hauls will be more frequent now... ;) Thx.
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Commander Bjorn Gisch
Gisch Mercenary Group
0
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Posted - 2014.03.21 01:11:00 -
[635] - Quote
Death of the casual player. Join a 0.0 alliance, pay tribute, force yourself to login for CTAs, activity minimums. Screw having a real life. We have gone from sandbox to WoW style level regions. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5282
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Posted - 2014.03.21 01:13:00 -
[636] - Quote
Plug in Baby wrote:So building capitals is now the domain of sov holders as well as supers. How can anyone else compete in the market losing 27.6% when everyone in null is losing only 13.2% .
I honestly can't see how there will be any margin>
Look at the Moros Current Cost: 1930m New Sov Cost: 2185m New NPC Cost: 2463m
Difference: 278m
How can anyone compete with the sov holders when they will have a 280m margin?
You aren't meant to compete with them.
This whole change is precisely tailored at bringing in the long time request of large null sec alliances (expecially one) to have everything made the best for them "because we fought to hold sov".
Therefore you are meant to either suck up and join them or close shop. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Commander Bjorn Gisch
Gisch Mercenary Group
0
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Posted - 2014.03.21 01:16:00 -
[637] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Krom Thomson wrote: no i keep forgetting only anome runners can make money hell if an indy even though well go's i think i should make some isk from my product well thats just plain and simple unheard of
This may surprise you, but people who only run anoms all day instead of helping their alliance by PvPing are called RENTERS! You can rent and then mine. You can rent and then run anoms. You can rent and then sing Turkish Opera in local. You can join an alliance, PvP, then mine. You can join an alliance, PvP, then run anoms. You can join an alliance, PvP, then sing Turkish Opera in local. Either way, you are paying with your time, in the form of PvP, or in isk, or in minerals. But living in nullsec has a price, and the price is time spent helping you alliance, one way or another. You are entitled to NOTHING.
TLDR: You can do whatever you want so long as we aren't telling you what to do at the time. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
211
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Posted - 2014.03.21 01:24:00 -
[638] - Quote
Commander Bjorn Gisch wrote:Anhenka wrote:Krom Thomson wrote: no i keep forgetting only anome runners can make money hell if an indy even though well go's i think i should make some isk from my product well thats just plain and simple unheard of
This may surprise you, but people who only run anoms all day instead of helping their alliance by PvPing are called RENTERS! You can rent and then mine. You can rent and then run anoms. You can rent and then sing Turkish Opera in local. You can join an alliance, PvP, then mine. You can join an alliance, PvP, then run anoms. You can join an alliance, PvP, then sing Turkish Opera in local. Either way, you are paying with your time, in the form of PvP, or in isk, or in minerals. But living in nullsec has a price, and the price is time spent helping you alliance, one way or another. You are entitled to NOTHING. TLDR: You can do whatever you want so long as we aren't telling you what to do at the time. Man, what alliances have you guys been in where you are told what to do all the time? Being in a Goonwaffe altcorp, I am not required to do anything. I haven't been on a strategic op in over three years.
I keep saying this, but it bears repeating -- find a better alliance. A real alliance uses carrots to motivate you, not sticks. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Rakooner
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
0
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Posted - 2014.03.21 01:26:00 -
[639] - Quote
way too long dev blog...... wtf |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
80
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Posted - 2014.03.21 01:28:00 -
[640] - Quote
Wylt Echerie wrote:
I certainly don't have access to the raw numbers but I'd suspect a pretty good percentage of meta items sold (especially to buy orders) wind up reprocessed. Even on low value items quite a few of them sit right below the value of the minerals obtained through reprocessing which to me indicates that the majority of demand is coming from people purchasing to reprocess. While the refining rate for ore is going down the mineral content of that ore is going up so it shouldn't change overall pricing of ore/minerals/manufactured modules that much. I doubt the overall % of minerals in the system will be terribly affected by the nerf to module reprocessing but the value of the loot to the person collecting it will drop significantly.
I actually think the price of low meta modules will go up. As it is now in most cases it's not worth it to loot and salvage missions and null sec anomalies probably are but not by a huge margin. Currently I'll take a huge amount of loot and pull out a small handful of things I know are worth selling like heavy launchers and just melt the rest. For the time I would spend on the market to make a small percentage over mineral value on a small percentage of the mods it's just not worth it. .
So when they cut the mineral value of the loot in half a good percentage of the players especially anyone with more than say about 50 or 60 million skill points or so will find it's not worth their time and just leave the wrecks. when that happens meta 1-4 mods will go up in price. Not enough to make looting worthwhile but enough to make loosing a ship a much bigger deal for anyone without the skill points to fit all T2 mods.
Higher cost of loosing a ship for noobs means more conservative play for those newer players which is the exact opposite of what CCP wants right now. If they are going to do this they should make a way for players to manufacture meta 1-4 mods. Maybe they could make like an experimental production with the meta level of the output mod to be RNG determined. But to do that they'd have to bring back 100% mod reprocessing so that you could do something with the low ones not worth selling. Either that or something with BPC copying where you could have a chance at higher meta levels. |
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
213
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Posted - 2014.03.21 01:28:00 -
[641] - Quote
Rakooner wrote:way too long dev blog...... wtf Don't fret, mon frere, just look to the thought leaders of GBS Logistics and Fives Support [MY 5S] for direction. Our warm glow and beatific interpretation of reality will serve to guide you through this confusing time. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Jason Station
A Better Corp Name
5
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Posted - 2014.03.21 01:39:00 -
[642] - Quote
My drink is empty.
If I read this all correctly I'm going to get hit with a very large nerf bat.
The timing is such that I should stock up like hell before the patch.
Once it is over I should hope that bounties alone will pay my way for the next 18 months until the economy recovers (yes I am looking at you battleship BPO)
Oh wait. I really don't give a flying squirrel and will just adapt.
Bartender! |
Beofryn Sedorak
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2014.03.21 01:41:00 -
[643] - Quote
Jason Station wrote:My drink is empty.
If I read this all correctly I'm going to get hit with a very large nerf bat.
The timing is such that I should stock up like hell before the patch.
Once it is over I should hope that bounties alone will pay my way for the next 18 months until the economy recovers (yes I am looking at you battleship BPO)
Oh wait. I really don't give a flying squirrel and will just adapt.
Bartender!
See people, He gets it. |
Cor'len
Remnant of an Empire Psychosomatic.
0
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Posted - 2014.03.21 01:42:00 -
[644] - Quote
Really, CCP? What a f*cked way to start off announcing summer features.
So in short you're nerfing hisec. Woohoo, sure makes me look forward to this summer then. Sure, the refining bit needed work, but you really didn't have to completely destroy mineral compression and reprocessing loot, as well as drop ore yields down the shitter.
No, I'd rather have it the way it currently is than what you're planning, even if some parts make sense. Stop f*cking up the game, you've done enough already. |
Arthur Aihaken
Arsenite
3112
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Posted - 2014.03.21 01:43:00 -
[645] - Quote
Cor'len wrote:Really, CCP? What a f*cked way to start off announcing summer features. This is probably the "big" Summer feature, so don't get your hopes up... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
409
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Posted - 2014.03.21 01:44:00 -
[646] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Cor'len wrote:Really, CCP? What a f*cked way to start off announcing summer features. This is probably the "big" Summer feature, so don't get your hopes up...
Arthur, do you do anything but whine on the forums?
All I ever see from you is bashing things, doom and gloom, and wide sweeping statements about how CCP is ****.
Do you have any redeeming features whatsoever? |
Dealth Striker
Striker Ltd
20
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Posted - 2014.03.21 02:03:00 -
[647] - Quote
Thank you CCP - once this goes live, you will make me a millionaire. I am currently a billionaire but who cares, right?
CCP, it would be nice if you put in some system where a person can trade in SP for these skills that you make completely useless or make one's gameplay totally different from what they were doing previous.
I have spent countless hours (and thus money) training skills that are greatly affected when you change things that you say are for the better.
Like before, I will wait and see what happens with this nerf to my gameplay and decide if I take a break for a few years like last time.
Boy, does this really hurt the new players though - sheesh! |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9195
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 02:04:00 -
[648] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Cor'len wrote:Really, CCP? What a f*cked way to start off announcing summer features. This is probably the "big" Summer feature, so don't get your hopes up... Arthur, do you do anything but whine on the forums? All I ever see from you is bashing things, doom and gloom, and wide sweeping statements about how CCP is ****. Do you have any redeeming features whatsoever? The same could be said about a LOT of people on these forums. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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hopielee hopielie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.03.21 02:04:00 -
[649] - Quote
Scyllyn wrote:Another question for a Dev.
Why are you modifying every single asteroid, refining array, Station, skills and every thing else that is involved in this mammoth undertaking INSTEAD or just modifying just modules to produce less minerals when melted?
because they are nerfing high sec, to give the nul peeps more. it does not make sense, but is the ccp way to avoid the sand box they like to act proud of. but avoid letting it affect the game. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9195
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 02:04:00 -
[650] - Quote
Dealth Striker wrote:Thank you CCP - once this goes live, you will make me a millionaire. I am currently a billionaire but who cares, right?
CCP, it would be nice if you put in some system where a person can trade in SP for these skills that you make completely useless or make one's gameplay totally different from what they were doing previous.
I have spent countless hours (and thus money) training skills that are greatly affected when you change things that you say are for the better.
Like before, I will wait and see what happens with this nerf to my gameplay and decide if I take a break for a few years like last time.
Boy, does this really hurt the new players though - sheesh! Nobody cares. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9195
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Posted - 2014.03.21 02:05:00 -
[651] - Quote
hopielee hopielie wrote:Scyllyn wrote:Another question for a Dev.
Why are you modifying every single asteroid, refining array, Station, skills and every thing else that is involved in this mammoth undertaking INSTEAD or just modifying just modules to produce less minerals when melted?
because they are nerfing high sec, to give the nul peeps more. it does not make sense, but is the ccp way to avoid the sand box they like to act proud of. but avoid letting it affect the game. If you had read the dev blog it would make sense. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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The Cue
Applied Agoraphobia
17
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Posted - 2014.03.21 02:06:00 -
[652] - Quote
Marcia en Welle wrote:The Cue wrote:Marcia en Welle wrote:Also I'd like to point out this is a massive buff to WH residents, perhaps unnecessarily seeing as CCP state that they do not want people living in WHs. Now WH residents will be able to cut themselves off almost completely. CCP has never said that they do not want people living in WHs. You are very significantly misunderstanding them. They stated that it was a totally unintentional situation, but just because it's unintended does not mean it's unwanted. This change is also a partial nerf to WH residents, as many of us import ice instead of the four products. Less M3, which is a precious commodity in WHs. You obviously either don't understand WHs very well, or are just trying to under play how significant of a buff this is to WH residents. You can now instantly refine and build components at rates higher than a fully skilled station refiner, and also compress at the now new highest standard of compression using the POS module. This is a very significant buff to WH residents.
Consider training reading comp to at least one. I never said it wasn't a buff in some ways, just that it was a nerf in others. |
Blake Ice
Bacon Anomaly
0
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Posted - 2014.03.21 02:09:00 -
[653] - Quote
So, in conclusion...
If you reprocess an aluminum can, you can't make another aluminum can. You can only make 66% of an aluminum can.
Sounds logical to me. Good job. Now go play with your toys... |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
81
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Posted - 2014.03.21 02:09:00 -
[654] - Quote
Weaselior wrote: you're not being forced in, you're staying at exactly the same level of income as you cower in your hole
it's merely that the people who take greater risks can reap greater reqards
I find this funny coming from a goon. Thanks to effort most likely being funded by goons high sec is probably a more dangerous place to mine than most null sec systems. So I don't think your risk versus reward statement is accurate from the mining toon's perspective. Granted the alliance as a whole has expenses that go with holding that space which need to be accounted for but if are simply talking about an individual miner's decision to stay in high sec or join a null alliance I believe you are very much wrong.
I came across a wormhole that lead deep into goon territory once. So I wandered around there on a no skill point alt in a noob ship because I figured I'd be podded instantly. To my surprise I came across system after system that was completely empty. I went to one of the -1.0 systems you guys have and watched as about a dozen or so what I assume to be ratting bots safed up in PoS bubbles from a 3 year old toon in a noob ship with no kills in his history. I talked in local and warped around to the belts for a while with no response. I then left system and came back several minutes later with no response again but new wrecks spread around. I spent a good amount of time there before I decided to see if I could make my way to high sec and I made it all the way to the bubbles you guys had on the gates leading to high sec before I died.
From that experience I came to the conclusion that there was little to no risk of loosing anything deep in goon space. I witnessed what I concluded were likely ratting bots and can only assume that you guys have mining bots operating in there as well. So please save the lecture on risk versus reward because for your isk makers be they bots or real players there just isn't any.
You goons got famous taking people who've never played the game from the something awful forums and setting them up in game with everything they need to get started and holding their hand all the way. Most goons have never risked anything they've been handed a sure thing from day one.
So maybe before you belittle this guy and lecture him about risk versus reward for new players you should listen to the concerns of some people who are coming to this game by themselves all alone trying to make their way in this complicated game with no one to hold their hand and show them the way. Because if we want this game to grow we can't go chasing them off. |
hopielee hopielie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.03.21 02:12:00 -
[655] - Quote
Regan Rotineque wrote:This was already at 31 pages when i started writing and I did take time to read all the replies so far.
(Yes Wall of Text hits you for 2,133 damage)
I find myself with odd mixed feelings about this change being proposed. On one had null does need a boost to give it a much better competitive edge in terms of some industrial changes. However I am not sure I like the way its being proposed.
I think this is overly complicated.
1. I understand the desire to make null sec and player owned/built structures have more value as there is greater risk associated with owning and operating. This I 100% support. However I have never felt that the issue was one of refine rate. In fact I think 100% refine rates are perfectly okay. The issue is that there is ZERO cost associated with NPC refine rates. Once you build up enough standing with said NPC entity you get a big zero on the "we take" side. Sorry but this never made sense to me (though i did as a big ass carebear in high sec benefit from it) but the costs of doing business in high sec seem to be missing in some equations.
There should ALWAYS be a cost associated with using an NPC station for anything....whether that be refine, research, industry etc...etc.... and these taxes should be imho MUCH higher than they are now. Instead of tinkering with the gameplay mechanics so much adding new and useless lines of code - you could have just raised the taxes in high sec.
That being said - I do see that there needs to be some usefulness put into those lvl 5 refine and ore skills. You could have just tweaked the refine rates to less than 100% and made it so that you get 100% with those level 5s.
Instead you have opted for a complicated math solution that confuses the masses and makes people think okay "how do I perfect this" oh wait i cant get 100% - i have some complicated math then we add some extra minerals in...but those will be lost in the conversions...etc..etc...
Just seems a bit daft to me this approach. The goal, and perhaps I am not fully understanding it, is to rebalance refine with a boost to null sec. With taxes its as easy as saying in high sec 10% of all minerals refined are taxed, Low sec 5% null sec - alliance set and just modified that refinery % at each of the stations (btw several others have mentioned this - there is no rationale behind a corp or station being a better refinery over another in high sec - there are Military bases with perfect refine and mining corp stations with less than perfect - be nice to fix that)
null should be the worst refining and production. there profit is in every other area. this added with the removal of PoS fuels from high sec. just makes the game unrealistic mechs. if you go to the congo to mine gold or diamonds, you do not expect to find a 5 star restaurant. and you expect to import all your eq. |
Ishka Tekitsu
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.03.21 02:15:00 -
[656] - Quote
pegi 12 violence - wondering what this really means. forum full of violent 12y/o?
for two years now, whenever I try to commit to this game. some expansion comes along that totally anti-hypes my drive. thanks again. two weeks ago I got refining wastage to zero. with a semi goal to at least try S&I. ohh well, I'll better wait till winter. yeah at least I should login annually. |
Arthur Aihaken
Arsenite
3113
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 02:16:00 -
[657] - Quote
If Goons can afford to build hundreds of Supercarriers and Titans, maybe we really shouldn't be looking at buffing their income. They're obviously making out hand over first out there, but no wonder they can't stop gloating: more toys for the blue donut. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1887
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Posted - 2014.03.21 02:16:00 -
[658] - Quote
hopielee hopielie wrote:just makes the game unrealistic mechs. please stop talking about realism in a game where planets do not move in their orbits.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Rain6637
Team Evil
12952
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Posted - 2014.03.21 02:17:00 -
[659] - Quote
High sec should provide a taste of what's available in EVE, and cause players to seek out where they can get more of it/do it better, and those places should be not-highsec. strip highsec down to the frame and leave it on cinder blocks.
edit: and shrink it too. President of the-áCommissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Rainfleet Mk III |
Arthur Aihaken
Arsenite
3113
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Posted - 2014.03.21 02:19:00 -
[660] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:High sec should provide a taste of what's available in EVE, and cause players to seek out where they can get more of it/do it better, and those places should be not-highsec. strip highsec down to the frame and leave it on cinder blocks. edit: and shrink it too. We'd have to buff null (again) to compensate Goons for all their lost incomeGǪ I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
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